Lions vs Hurricanes

.ak

Anyway, winners from the game?

Lawes showed his addition to the set piece. Best jumper in the squad? With him in the starting line up it may negate the need for POM.

Hendo back to his best, carrying and clearouts were immense. But looks knackered now, likely to be written off for 2nd test.

Best had a decent showing I thought, as usual he's a beast on the deck.

North had his best game to date. Gave away oodles of penalties but he went well in the centre and the additional contact work will stand to him. Won't be surprised to see him feature in the tests.

Biggar looked good but also knackered now.

Seymour and Nowell also had decent showings. Halfpenny looked hungry when he came on but some high profile errors will have Garland sweating.

Biggest losers?

Henshaw and Payne, tours are over by the looks.

Stander had another meh game although carried well.

Joseph needs to be better considering the hype.

Laidlaw...

awec

Buer wrote: »

No matter what way the tour is managed/selected, there are going to be plenty of people who will stick the boot in and have a right little whinge.

Gatland calls up guys as tackle bag holders and potential injury cover and doesn't play them? He's wrong and has treated the players badly.

Gatland calls up guys as tackle bag holders and potential injury cover and does play them? He's wrong and has devalued the jersey.

Gatland calls up real competitors as additional options? He got the initial selction wrong and doesn't have a clue what players to go with in the test.

The selections today mean that there are going to be minimal changes to the 23 and that decision was made before anyone stepped onto the field tonight. One or two lads might force their way onto the bench. Lawes looks like he'll be involved in some capacity.

You've just made that up.

Firstly, the organisation of this tour has been poor, just too many games of too high a standard for a squad of ~40 to be sufficient. I don't think we'll ever see a schedule like this again, it doesn't work.

Secondly, the call ups were poor on two fronts. Firstly, it makes a mockery of the entire concept to call up players who have no business playing for the Lions. Secondly, calling up such low calibre players is pointless because you can't actually use them. Yea, nobody wants to see extra call ups but at least if they are players you can actually use people can see a point to it.

As it stands Gatland has flogged his midweek team which has been counter productive. Henderson for example probably put in a man of the match showing but the fact he had to play 80 will see him drop out of the discussion for Saturday.

irishman86

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What are you on about? If he didn't give a **** about Lions history he would have been throwing caps around like confetti and would have no problem using them from the bench.

He called them up in the first place was only the lastest example, this is all a way for Gats to show he should have been the All Blacks coach
He gave Williams a game last year another example of Gats logic

thomond2006

irishman86 wrote: »

He called them up in the first place was only the lastest example, this is all a way for Gats to show he should have been the All Blacks coach
He gave Williams a game last year another example of Gats logic

Expand?

I don't see why he couldn't have had the test bench players on the bench again today. It's not as if they'd be overworked.

irishman86

thomond2006 wrote: »

Expand?

Its common knowledge he wanted it and didnt get it

irishbucsfan

irishman86 wrote: »

Its common knowledge he wanted it and didnt get it

Please tell me how the 6 players he called up from Scotland and Wales are related to him supposedly wanting the All Blacks gig at some point in history.

irishbucsfan

Chaya Square Bread wrote: »

I don't see why he couldn't have had the test bench players on the bench again today. It's not as if they'd be overworked.

Because the midweek games are irrelevant and those players are in line to be involved in a game that is actually relevant on Saturday.

bilston

Just thinking while it may be that his Lions tour is over now (which would be harsh), Ireland and Ulster are going to benefit big time from Henderson's experience in NZ.

He has to play second row for Ulster though. I think this is why Nucifora has allowed Ulster to sign a second NIQ back row.

awec

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Because the midweek games are irrelevant and those players are in line to be involved in a game that is actually relevant on Saturday.

The final midweek game is hardly irrelevant given it's his last chance to try and find his best team and have his players find some form.

Buer

awec wrote: »

You've just made that up.

Firstly, the organisation of this tour has been poor, just too many games of too high a standard for a squad of ~40 to be sufficient. I don't think we'll ever see a schedule like this again, it doesn't work.

Secondly, the call ups were poor on two fronts. Firstly, it makes a mockery of the entire concept to call up players who have no business playing for the Lions. Secondly, calling up such low calibre players is pointless because you can't actually use them. Yea, nobody wants to see extra call ups but at least if they are players you can actually use people can see a point to it.

As it stands Gatland has flogged his midweek team which has been counter productive. Henderson for example probably put in a man of the match showing but the fact he had to play 80 will see him drop out of the discussion for Saturday.

Of course I made it up; it's an opinion. That's the point.

But are you suggesting that if Gatland had called up Cian Healy, Keith Earls, Joe Launchbury, etc. nobody would be say that it's an admission of getting it wrong initially and panicking ahead of the tests? Of course they would.

In relation to the schedule, that has nothing to do with Gatland. It's set way before he is given the job.

With respect to "flogging" his miweek team. Who has been flogged? Henderson is probably right up there in terms of match time and has played for approximately 300 minutes on the tour to date. It's a solid amount of game time since arriving but nothing extraordinary.

Christy42

awec wrote: »

The final midweek game is hardly irrelevant given it's his last chance to try and find his best team and have his players find some form.

Really because none will be back in serious shape to make a starting line up till the third test now which may be meaningless.

That was a disgrace. Gatland played this game because he had to and no other reason. The size of team required to play this game and the tests properly is too big. That was shown today when more players were obviously required but none of the relevant ability were in NZ and not being rested.

davo2001

awec wrote: »

The final midweek game is hardly irrelevant given it's his last chance to try and find his best team and have his players find some form.

And so how many players from today will play on Saturday?!

awec

Christy42 wrote: »

Really because none will be back in serious shape to make a starting line up till the third test now which may be meaningless.

That was a disgrace. Gatland played this game because he had to and no other reason. The size of team required to play this game and the tests properly is too big. That was shown today when more players were obviously required but none of the relevant ability were in NZ and not being rested.

This is avoidable with a proper use of the bench.

Obviously, the entire 23 playing today was not in contention for Saturday, but a few guys were. Tell them to go out and put in a good 40/50 minutes and then haul them off.

Buer

irishman86 wrote: »

Its common knowledge he wanted it and didnt get it

It's common knowledge that the NZRU invited multiple people (including Schmidt) to apply for the job but it was locked down for Steve Hansen.

Gatland couldn't get himself a head coach position in Super Rugby (but later turned down the Chiefs more recently). He was never in a position to be appointed as NZ coach and he would fully know that.

Christy42

awec wrote: »

This is avoidable with a proper use of the bench.

Obviously, the entire 23 playing today was not in contention for Saturday, but a few guys were. Tell them to go out and put in a good 40/50 minutes and then haul them off.

Ah right misunderstood your argument. Thought you were arguing for Gatland and not just the midweek game. Yeah but he still needs a bigger squad to play both games like that in quick succession.

awec

Christy42 wrote: »

Ah right misunderstood your argument. Thought you were arguing for Gatland and not just the midweek game. Yeah but he still needs a bigger squad to play both games like that in quick succession.

Yep, but my other argument is if you have to call up extra players at least call up guys you can actually use. He may as well have stuck a red jersey on a few mannequins and set them on the bench.

Teferi

Nothing will ever be Gatland's fault.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/879643922779086850

BBDBB

It was wrong to select them, but Gatland just compounded the error by not using them.

slingerz

BBDBB wrote: »

It was wrong to select them, but Gatland just compounded the error by not using them.

100% agree no point calling them up if he wasnt going to use them.

Should have called up the best available and at least utilised them off the bench. He doesnt care about the midweek games when they are a great opportunity to build momentum and morale IMO.

Teferi

Teferi wrote: »

Nothing will ever be Gatland's fault.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/879643922779086850

Sorry, but what a thundering cowardly arse he is. Whether he was constrained in what further selections he was allowed or whether it was his call is one thing, but own the bloody decision.

His comments and demeanour are what has devalued the tour.

I also heard he was blaming the yellow card and being down to 14 men despite trying to win a 23 man game with 18/19 players.

irishman86

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Please tell me how the 6 players he called up from Scotland and Wales are related to him supposedly wanting the All Blacks gig at some point in history.

I was talking about the Lions job in general buddy, he shows his disdain for the job with the way his selection process worked

irishman86

Buer wrote: »

It's common knowledge that the NZRU invited multiple people (including Schmidt) to apply for the job but it was locked down for Steve Hansen.

Gatland couldn't get himself a head coach position in Super Rugby (but later turned down the Chiefs more recently). He was never in a position to be appointed as NZ coach and he would fully know that.

He never got a chance when the franchises were hiring because hes not considered highly in NZ, his record against the southern hemisphere proves this

Utopia Parkway

AbusesToilets wrote: »

Best really should be ahead of Owens at the least, but his early yips has cost him. He was very good today, a right nuisance at the breakdown. I hope Henderson can make the 23, to my eyes, he's been the most impressive lock so far on tour. Stander anonymous today, could do with a long rest.

Stander looked wrecked for the last month of the regular season. Had a feeling he wouldn't have much of an impact on tour. He needs a long break.

irishman86

Teferi wrote: »

Nothing will ever be Gatland's fault.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/879643922779086850

As I was saying disgusting management of the team

Dave_The_Sheep

You have to feel sorry for the subs not used. Basically told that a player out on their feet is a better option than them and that they devalue the jersey.

Take some bloody responsibility, Gatland.

Buer

I think Gatland is being a little bit of a wind up merchant with the comment that Kinsella selectively chose to quote. Lets look at what he said in the press conference when asked about bench.

“We felt that the players who came in came in for cover. That’s what we’ve done.”

“All along we said it was about those players coming for cover and making sure we gave the 23 as much of a chance to prepare for the Tests as possible.”

I don't agree with his refusal to make more changes in the latter stages, particularly for someone like Gareth Davies who legitimately could be a Lion but the comment appears to be Gatland taking the p*ss out of his critics more than anything.

Jump_In_Jack

Don't like Gatland but agree with not playing "cover" players unless injury dictates otherwise.
Nobody really cares about the results of the mid-week matches so giving the players in the mid-week squad a full match will be good for them.
They won't be needed for the second test but they're only one injury away from being on the bench in the third test, and have plenty of time to recover.
The only player that might get promoted to the 'A' team would be Lawes at the expense of Kruis or AWJ.
Would guess everyone else is safe, but perhaps they might start Itoje or maybe another sub or two from last week might get to start.

typhoony

Utopia Parkway wrote: »

Stander looked wrecked for the last month of the regular season. Had a feeling he wouldn't have much of an impact on tour. He needs a long break.

same for Henderson, he looked goosed after 50 minutes today, not the first time I've seen him like that after just one half of rugby.

on Stander and his position with the Ireland team, I think he'll come under serious competition from Conan and Leavy. in fact I think Conan could well overtake Heaslip also

typhoony

just confirms my opinion from 2 weeks ago, he's the worst Lions coach they have ever had

leakyboots

Stander was 'meh' and 'anonymous'... he had the most carries, made the most yards in the pack outside of Henderson, 14 tackles, none missed, didn't give away any penalties unlike the other two backrows. Thought he kept going to the bitter end trucking up dirty ball.

Thought there was a pretty good balance to the backrow, Tipuric just tackled all day (24!) and hit rucks, while he didn't make yards with ball in hand he offloaded plenty, had a fine game. Really think he's a great player, always causes havoc against Munster. Haskell worked his arse off too.

typhoony

leakyboots wrote: »

Stander was 'meh' and 'anonymous'... he had the most carries, made the most yards in the pack outside of Henderson, 14 tackles, none missed, didn't give away any penalties unlike the other two backrows. Thought he kept going to the bitter end trucking up dirty ball.

Thought there was a pretty good balance to the backrow, Tipuric just tackled all day (24!) and hit rucks, while he didn't make yards with ball in hand he offloaded plenty, had a fine game. Really think he's a great player, always causes havoc against Munster. Haskell worked his arse off too.

only Henderson carried the ball with any real effect, the rest just carried for hard yards which don't result in tries only minimal gain line

typhoony

typhoony wrote: »

the rest just carried for hard yards which don't result in tries only minimal gain line

It works well in the pro12 but players need to be able to vary it up at Test level to have a long term impact.

leakyboots

Hmmm... not sure you can just dismiss 'carried for hard yards', they're the yards that suck in and tire out defences. If he wasn't carrying enough ball I'd be saying fair enough, poor game, but he kept going to the well over and over (they all did, not just CJ to be fair). His engine is incredible (and he's not even at full tilt at the moment either)

irishman86

typhoony wrote: »

same for Henderson, he looked goosed after 50 minutes today, not the first time I've seen him like that after just one half of rugby.

on Stander and his position with the Ireland team, I think he'll come under serious competition from Conan and Leavy. in fact I think Conan could well overtake Heaslip also

Conan and Leavy are no way near Stander. Serious blue tinted glasses there
People seem quickly to forget just how good Heaslip is on here

typhoony

irishman86 wrote: »

Conan and Leavy are no way near Stander. Serious blue tinted glasses there
People seem quickly to forget just how good Heaslip is on here

i'm a connacht supporter, heaslip is probably past his best

typhoony

leakyboots wrote: »

Hmmm... not sure you can just dismiss 'carried for hard yards', they're the yards that suck in and tire out defences. If he wasn't carrying enough ball I'd be saying fair enough, poor game, but he kept going to the well over and over (they all did, not just CJ to be fair). His engine is incredible (and he's not even at full tilt at the moment either)

well it's been a failure so far in new zealand, works in the Northern Hemisphere

irishman86

typhoony wrote: »

i'm a connacht supporter, heaslip is probably past his best

My bad , well then I just think you are very wrong :pac:

irishman86

typhoony wrote: »

well it's been a failure so far in new zealand, works in the Northern Hemisphere

You can say the same thing about most players. Farrell for example is probably considered the best 10 in the north doesnt look it now after a long hard season

TomsOnTheRoof

leakyboots wrote: »

Stander was 'meh' and 'anonymous'... he had the most carries, made the most yards in the pack outside of Henderson, 14 tackles, none missed, didn't give away any penalties unlike the other two backrows. Thought he kept going to the bitter end trucking up dirty ball.

Thought there was a pretty good balance to the backrow, Tipuric just tackled all day (24!) and hit rucks, while he didn't make yards with ball in hand he offloaded plenty, had a fine game. Really think he's a great player, always causes havoc against Munster. Haskell worked his arse off too.

Agree 100%. He has regularly topped the stats for the Lions this tour, be they carries, tackles or metres. He's not playing to his usual high standard but he has been flogged mercilessly at the end of a long and hard season all to ensure that Faletau starts the tests (Faletau deserves to start to be fair). I'd say he hasn't gotten more than a week off since the end of the 6 Nations.

For people claiming that he is going to be overtaken in the Irish set up all I can say is eaten bread is soon forgotten. Stander was shortlisted for both the European Player of the Year and the 6 Nations Player of the championship. He was also an integral part of our victory against the All Blacks in November. Now suddenly he has been found out at test level? Rubbish. When Heaslip puts up these kind of numbers he is lauded on here. When he doesn't consistently break the gain line we are told that he is tidying up poor ball. It's the usual myopic nonsense, the same kind which had people claiming that O' Mahony's international career was over. It'd make you wonder at times.

molloyjh

"People" claiming POMs career was over? You mean there was more than one!?

And stats alone prove the sum total of nothing really. A guy can carry ball more than anyone on the park and still be crap because he does so badly and/or takes the wrong options or any other sort of context that frames the stats.

I'm not saying Stander did any of those things, I don't know as I didn't see the game, but anyone who uses stats alone to prove a point has failed to prove the point. And that goes for anything said about Heaslip as much as Stander or anyone else.

AbusesToilets

Stander needs to improve his carrying. He's far too one dimensional presently and has been found out to a certain extent. Injury obviously hasn't helped, but he could do with looking to pass more and get involved in link play.

.ak

Topping the carry stats doesn't mean anything. Another way of looking at them would be to say he's not passing the ball ebough either.

To me he looks like a prop with an 8 on his back currently, not his usual self with dynamism and endeavour about the pitch.

swiwi_

Great game of rugby, although it was the most cheatiest of the Lions displays to date: what gap in the lineout?, what rolling away after the tackle? what kicking or throwing the ball away after every penalty?

2 standout displays

1) Henderson
2) Jordie Barrett

If I was a certain segment of bitter and twisted Irish rugby fan, no doubt I'll be still posting in 2029 when the next NZ Lions tour rolls around about how Henderson deliberately and maliciously targeted Barrett in a pre-ordained spear tackle...but I'm not, so I won't be. Anyone with common decency knows Henderson is not that sort of player, and I prefer to avoid begrudgery and 2-faced hypocrisy.

Anyway, it looks like Lawes will be in the 23 for Saturday, but it should be Henderson. I'd also have Joseph or Nowell there or thereabouts for the 23 shirt.

Burkie1203

TomsOnTheRoof wrote: »

Agree 100%. He has regularly topped the stats for the Lions this tour, be they carries, tackles or metres. He's not playing to his usual high standard but he has been flogged mercilessly at the end of a long and hard season all to ensure that Faletau starts the tests (Faletau deserves to start to be fair). I'd say he hasn't gotten more than a week off since the end of the 6 Nations.

For people claiming that he is going to be overtaken in the Irish set up all I can say is eaten bread is soon forgotten. Stander was shortlisted for both the European Player of the Year and the 6 Nations Player of the championship. He was also an integral part of our victory against the All Blacks in November. Now suddenly he has been found out at test level? Rubbish. When Heaslip puts up these kind of numbers he is lauded on here. When he doesn't consistently break the gain line we are told that he is tidying up poor ball. It's the usual myopic nonsense, the same kind which had people claiming that O' Mahony's international career was over. It'd make you wonder at times.

Stander hasnt been flogged mercilessly any more then anyone else. In fact he has had several weekends off as part of the IRFU player welfare

Also Heaslip was nominated for world player of the year but apparently he should have dropped according to a lot of 'experts' on social media. He is another player who was fairly integral to everything good that happened last year too

swiwi_

swiwi_ wrote: »

If I was a certain segment of bitter and twisted Irish rugby fan, no doubt I'll be still posting in 2029 when the next NZ Lions tour rolls around about how Henderson deliberately and maliciously targeted Barrett in a pre-ordained spear tackle...but I'm not, so I won't be. Anyone with common decency knows Henderson is not that sort of player, and I prefer to avoid begrudgery and 2-faced hypocrisy.

Seeing this kind of churlish deflection all over the internet mixed with significant indignation at the mere suggestion of foul play.

It makes you realise that the All Blacks don't have fans and supporters, they have worshippers and disciples.

[Deleted User]

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Seeing this kind of churlish deflection all over the internet mixed with significant indignation at the mere suggestion of foul play.

It makes you realise that the All Blacks don't have fans and supporters, they have worshippers and disciples.

Ah come on. Surely you're clever enough to know it's said in jest. I don't know why you'd feel the need to try to turn it into some kind of insult.

Anyway, I'll play along, and am now duly outraged.

Yeah_Right

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Seeing this kind of churlish deflection all over the internet mixed with significant indignation at the mere suggestion of foul play.

It makes you realise that the All Blacks don't have fans and supporters, they have worshippers and disciples.

Finally you understand the power of the dark side. Come join us. Embrace the Blackness and experience the joy of winning. A lot.

The real mccoy 91

irishman86 wrote:

People seem quickly to forget just how good Heaslip is on here

Yes not very good at all he will have lost his provincial and international place for next year

irishbucsfan

The real mccoy 91 wrote: »

Yes not very good at all he will have lost his provincial and international place for next year

Nominated for world player of the year last time around. Not very good at all.