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Chiefs v Lions match thread

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    #182
    Squidgy Black
    Registered Users Posts: 21,605 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    leakyboots wrote: »
    You don't think Stander has found any form? I think you're letting your own bias get in the way there

    On this tour? No he hasn't found any form. He's been very much at the standard of a midweek player.


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    #183
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    If there was more money in rugby then higher levels of analysis would be readily available. Cian Fahey watches every single play in the NFL and charts what happens (subjectively) and designs his own advanced statistics. He's able to separate the role/performance of each player in an outcome. He can do this because he can make a living from it. You couldn't do that in rugby.


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    #184
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    leakyboots wrote: »
    You don't think Stander has found any form? I think you're letting your own bias get in the way there

    Bias against Stander??? If I had any bias about an Irish player it would be the other way around.

    Stander has had a poor tour. He looks tired tbh, no shame in admitting that.


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    #185
    leakyboots
    Registered Users Posts: 5,913 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Nah, he hasn't been poor, sorry. Henshaw, he's been poor. Seymour, he's been poor. Nowell, until today, was poor.

    Stander hasn't been at his personal best, clearly carrying an injury/tired like you said, but in spite of that he's still not far off being part of the test 23 at all for me. Top carrier, turning over opposition ball, showing leadership on the pitch, one of the few to bag a try - he's had a good tour. Dunno how people can say he's had 'a poor tour'


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    #186
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Stander has had a poor tour for me. It started very poor and he had his best performance in the first half today before fading and going back to how he was. Some of his carrying has been atrociously frustrating. If he'd had a good tour he wouldn't have been playing today.

    Henshaw has had a mixed bag. Probably our best defensive back and by quite a distance, except for maybe Payne, but just doesn't make things happen going forward. Great player to have but needs that extra ability to make something happen for others.


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    #187
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,176 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    leakyboots wrote: »
    Nah, he hasn't been poor, sorry. Henshaw, he's been poor. Seymour, he's been poor. Nowell, until today, was poor.

    Stander hasn't been at his personal best, clearly carrying an injury/tired like you said, but in spite of that he's still not far off being part of the test 23 at all for me. Top carrier, turning over opposition ball, showing leadership on the pitch, one of the few to bag a try - he's had a good tour. Dunno how people can say he's had 'a poor tour'

    It really depends on what's your metric and what his form is relative to. I think he has gone ok. Had some good moments, worked his socks off but lacked the punch we've seen in the past. If this was an Irish tour we'd be saying he has had a grand tour and would be among the more prominent performers.

    I would imagine that he is fairly disappointed with his performances to date, though. I don't think I'd be wrong in saying most of us had him pencilled in to be the test 6 a while back. He's unlikely to be in the test 23 now for the opener and can't have any complaints.

    It's entirely subjective and, in a Lions context, not being in the test 23 doesn't mean a poor tour. However, going out there as a favourite for the test side and not making the 23 could suggest that just like Henshaw will be disappointed with his tour.


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    #188
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I know I'm not going to make many friends saying it but I think CJ is very one dimensional. He's very good at what he does but against the best sides he can be bottled up. Leinster have done that to him a few times in the league and it's happened at Test level too. He carries straight into contact so if you meet him at the gain line (or behind it) with enough physicality you can take him out of the game. He doesn't offer the variety to his game that he needs. And he needs to find that soon because I genuinely think he's in danger of being found out to a degree. His defensive game is very good but for me he's behind both POM and Heaslip for Ireland, nevermind the Lions.


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    #189
    crisco10
    Registered Users Posts: 6,172 ✭✭✭crisco10


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I know I'm not going to make many friends saying it but I think CJ is very one dimensional. He's very good at what he does but against the best sides he can be bottled up. Leinster have done that to him a few times in the league and it's happened at Test level too. He carries straight into contact so if you meet him at the gain line (or behind it) with enough physicality you can take him out of the game. He doesn't offer the variety to his game that he needs. And he needs to find that soon because I genuinely think he's in danger of being found out to a degree. His defensive game is very good but for me he's behind both POM and Heaslip for Ireland, nevermind the Lions.

    I actually agree, his carrying is unreal at times, but a bit like SOB in 2011, he can fall into the trap of doing it over and over again with diminishing effect.


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    #190
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    crisco10 wrote: »
    I actually agree, his carrying is unreal at times, but a bit like SOB in 2011, he can fall into the trap of doing it over and over again with diminishing effect.

    Hopefully Stander can develop his game like Seanie has. Even with Gatlands huge blindspot for Warburton there is a decent chance O'Brien will start at the weekend at 7 and developing and adapting his game is what has him a Lions test starter for a second tour.

    It will be a real test of character for Stander if he can get out of his comfort zone and it will make him a more complete no.8 in the mold of Heaslip imo.

    Interestingly Conan is a player that hasn't hit the same heights yet but already has a very rounded game.


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    #191
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Ah, Stander has had a very disappointing tour. Most people would have had him down as a likely test player, and once Vunipola dropped out the omens were very good for him. He looked knackered against Scarlets so maybe he's just had a long season. It's a shame.


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    #192
    razorblunt
    Registered Users Posts: 17,300 ✭✭✭✭razorblunt


    I don't think Stander has recovered from that ankle injury in the Pro 12 semi final. It's also been a very long season for him. Definitely starting to show in the legs.

    Haskell is looking leggy too, he waddles around rather than running, but he's been off form since February really.


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    #193
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Former Former wrote: »
    Ah, Stander has had a very disappointing tour. Most people would have had him down as a likely test player, and once Vunipola dropped out the omens were very good for him. He looked knackered against Scarlets so maybe he's just had a long season. It's a shame.

    For the record this is something I've been saying for a few months now. I just haven't had the courage to say it online until now.....


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    #194
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Stander has had a poor tour for me. It started very poor and he had his best performance in the first half today before fading and going back to how he was. Some of his carrying has been atrociously frustrating. If he'd had a good tour he wouldn't have been playing today.

    Henshaw has had a mixed bag. Probably our best defensive back and by quite a distance, except for maybe Payne, but just doesn't make things happen going forward. Great player to have but needs that extra ability to make something happen for others.

    Henshaw has been poor, let's stop fannying about.

    For all this talk of Stander being a bit one dimensional (which he is), there seems to be a reluctance to say the same for Henshaw (and it is equally true for him as well) who has been even worse than Stander.

    And the thing about Henshaw is he doesn't really do much better for Ireland either. It's not as if you can say that his boshing is a result of Gatland, he is just as bad in green. But for whatever reason he escapes criticism and has excuses made while Stander's limitations are highlighted front and centre.

    People comparing Stander to Heaslip, what a waste of time. Completely different players. This is like comparing Heaslip to Vunipola, a waste of time as they are entirely different.


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    #195
    kilns
    Registered Users Posts: 3,525 ✭✭✭kilns


    It has to be said, Stander, Henshaw and Payne have had relatively poor tours from what Irish supporters would expect from them.  Yes Henshaw has been one dimensional in attack, I guess it is a pity for him that he didnt get the opportunity to play with the test starters, I think he could have easily been as impressive as Teo or Davies as there is not much between them all.
    Stander and Payne started off very poorly and have improved, Stander too is becoming very one dimensional and is beginning to be found out a little, he now needs to add to his game like SOB has.  Payne has been solid in the last few games but just hasnt brought that X factor that makes him stand out (albeit no one else has either)


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    #196
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    molloyjh wrote: »
    I know I'm not going to make many friends saying it but I think CJ is very one dimensional. He's very good at what he does but against the best sides he can be bottled up. Leinster have done that to him a few times in the league and it's happened at Test level too. He carries straight into contact so if you meet him at the gain line (or behind it) with enough physicality you can take him out of the game. He doesn't offer the variety to his game that he needs. And he needs to find that soon because I genuinely think he's in danger of being found out to a degree. His defensive game is very good but for me he's behind both POM and Heaslip for Ireland, nevermind the Lions.

    I'd agree with that. He doesn't look to link with other players well enough presently. Conan is showing more to his game at present for me.


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    #197
    Clegg
    Registered Users Posts: 16,670 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    Conan's last few performances have come against sub-standard opposition. He has been great, but they've been in glorified training runs. He's a good player, but he isn't on Stander's level yet. I will say that he's better at offloading the ball. He almost always looks to get his hands free to pop the ball out. Stander can be too bosh centric at times.


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    #198
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,981 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I heartily look forward to the Conan v Stander debates come next season's 6 Nations, I must say.


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    #199
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I haven't been commenting on players form on tour because I simply haven't been watching it all that much or all that closely. In terms of Henshaw I'd tend to agree that he hasn't shown a huge amount for Leinster or Ireland the last season. He's been solid as a rock but not exactly the most dynamic. Which is disappointing given his potential skill set. I'm not really sure why that is. He has a kicking game (or at least appeared to early on in his career) that could be used at 12 for example. I've always been a bit concerned about his distribution though. He can offload well, but his passing game outside that has never really impressed me that much.

    The problem is that both Leinster and Ireland are stuck for quality 12s so that's where he's needed. He can get that go forward and tie down defenders well so while not flashy it's probably the best use of the available talent. Like Stander it would be nice to see more strings to his bow.


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    #200
    Neil3030
    Registered Users Posts: 16,981 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    I think in many respects Stander and Henshaw are in similar situations - a long hard season for province and country, and a very direct style of play. Not hardly surprising that neither are setting the world on fire now that we're approaching the end of June.


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    #201
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Henshaw has been poor, let's stop fannying about.

    For all this talk of Stander being a bit one dimensional (which he is), there seems to be a reluctance to say the same for Henshaw (and it is equally true for him as well) who has been even worse than Stander.

    And the thing about Henshaw is he doesn't really do much better for Ireland either. It's not as if you can say that his boshing is a result of Gatland, he is just as bad in green. But for whatever reason he escapes criticism and has excuses made while Stander's limitations are highlighted front and centre.

    People comparing Stander to Heaslip, what a waste of time. Completely different players. This is like comparing Heaslip to Vunipola, a waste of time as they are entirely different.

    I definitely disagree about Henshaw anyway. What has he done poorly? I haven't seen him making any errors or giving away penalties (which is where I'd call Stander poor). Henshaw has been a defensive warrior, just not done much going forward aside from his physical direct running stuff.


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    #202
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Think he's wasted at 12 tbh, he's a glorified Bosh merchant, as Awec alluded to.


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    #203
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I definitely disagree about Henshaw anyway. What has he done poorly? I haven't seen him making any errors or giving away penalties (which is where I'd call Stander poor). Henshaw has been a defensive warrior, just not done much going forward aside from his physical direct running stuff.

    I think "defensive warrior" is more than a bit OTT.

    But sure, Henshaw would be an outstanding player if all you ever had to do was defend. Unfortunately that's only half the game and in the other half he is sorely lacking at 12.


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    #204
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Think he's wasted at 12 tbh, he's a glorified Bosh merchant, as Awec alluded to.

    He's wasted at 12 in what way? Because he's skilful enough to be at 13 or 15?

    I think thats wishful thinking from a lot of people. If he had that side to his game we'd see it when he gets into space currently. He's just a direct player and he's very very good at that.


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    #205
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    He's wasted at 12 in what way? Because he's skilful enough to be at 13 or 15?

    I think thats wishful thinking from a lot of people. If he had that side to his game we'd see it when he gets into space currently. He's just a direct player and he's very very good at that.

    I think he would have been better served playing in either position. He rose to prominence because of his performances playing there for Connacht etc. He got moved around to accommodate others, which has hurt his game imo.


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    #206
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Henshaw is by some distance the best 12 available to Ireland. Nothing else really matters.

    He's had a poor Lions tour.


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    #207
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    He's wasted at 12 in what way? Because he's skilful enough to be at 13 or 15?

    I think thats wishful thinking from a lot of people. If he had that side to his game we'd see it when he gets into space currently. He's just a direct player and he's very very good at that.

    Because he plays better at 13? Because he's really not that great at 12?

    It's hardly wishful thinking when we've seen it before. How often does Henshaw currently get into space at 12 in attack? Seeing as his sole role seems to be to get the ball and run straight into the nearest defender it is pretty much never.

    There's no looking to bring anyone else into the game, there's no looking to offload. Just find the nearest defender, hit him and recycle. If he is "just a direct player" then he's not a very good one.

    Ben Teo, a player I've never particularly rated that highly and who has barely been playing union a wet week compared to Henshaw looks far more comfortable and accomplished at inside centre and offers a lot more threat.

    Henshaw is, at best, the 3rd choice 12 on this tour I would imagine, which is pretty poor given how much people rave about him on here. But the thing is it is not as if his Lions performances have been substantially different to his Ireland ones. He certainly benefits from a lack of competition for the 12 jersey for Ireland.


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    #208
    AbusesToilets
    Registered Users Posts: 9,957 ✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Former Former wrote: »
    Henshaw is by some distance the best 12 available to Ireland. Nothing else really matters.

    He's had a poor Lions tour.

    Marshall is far better skilkwise than Henshaw, brings a lot more to the game. He's unfortunately inconsistent, and has a tendency to **** up simple passes.


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    #209
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Marshall is far better skilkwise than Henshaw, brings a lot more to the game. He's unfortunately inconsistent, and has a tendency to **** up simple passes.

    No, Marshall is not even close to international level. He's not even the best 12 at Ulster.


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    #210
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,365 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    AbusesToilets wrote: »
    Marshall is far better skilkwise than Henshaw, brings a lot more to the game. He's unfortunately inconsistent, and has a tendency to **** up simple passes.

    All of our 12s are IMO not too dissimilar.

    Henshaw - good in defence, poor in attack
    McCloskey - good in attack, poor in defence
    Marshall - can't pass
    Scannell - unproven

    If we could somehow merge Henshaw and McCloskey into one player we'd be onto a winner.


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    #211
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Because he plays better at 13? Because he's really not that great at 12?

    It's hardly wishful thinking when we've seen it before. How often does Henshaw currently get into space at 12 in attack? Seeing as his sole role seems to be to get the ball and run straight into the nearest defender it is pretty much never.

    There's no looking to bring anyone else into the game, there's no looking to offload. Just find the nearest defender, hit him and recycle. If he is "just a direct player" then he's not a very good one.

    Ben Teo, a player I've never particularly rated that highly and who has barely been playing union a wet week compared to Henshaw looks far more comfortable and accomplished at inside centre and offers a lot more threat.

    Henshaw is, at best, the 3rd choice 12 on this tour I would imagine, which is pretty poor given how much people rave about him on here. But the thing is it is not as if his Lions performances have been substantially different to his Ireland ones. He certainly benefits from a lack of competition for the 12 jersey for Ireland.

    When have you seen it before exactly? Are we going all the way back to a few games for Connacht where he showed some potential? Before going on to be moved inside and becoming one of Ireland's most important backs.

    He's one of the best 12s in Europe. In the top 3.


    Haha, McCloskey is good in attack and Henshaw is poor in attack. I don't think there's any universe where you can convince me of that.


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