Dublin Airport and Executive Jets at rush hour

737max

Is Dublin Airport atypical in that it is a single runway major European airport which is allowing Executive jets to take off at rush hour.

I flew out on Tuesday and there were two executive jets one after the other in the queue to take off before us. Our plane took off late so it can't be said that it didn't affect our full flight.
If the plutocrats won't fly with the rest of us great unwashed shouldn't they do it properly and fly from other airports too.

Discuss!

NewApproach

737max wrote: »

Is Dublin Airport atypical in that it is a single runway major European airport which is allowing Executive jets to take off at rush hour.

I flew out on Tuesday and there were two executive jets one after the other in the queue to take off before us. Our plane took off late so it can't be said that it didn't affect our full flight.
If the plutocrats won't fly with the rest of us great unwashed shouldn't they do it properly and fly from other airports too.

Discuss!

They pay airport fees like the commercial operators, I don't see what the issue is?

737max

an A320 delayed so that a few wealthy people can Jet off ahead of them. You don't see an issue with public infrastructure being used like that?

Tenger

737max wrote: »

......
I flew out on Tuesday and there were two executive jets one after the other in the queue to take off before us. Our plane took off late so it can't be said that it didn't affect our full flight.
If the plutocrats won't fly with the rest of us great unwashed shouldn't they do it properly and fly from other airports too.....

737max wrote: »

an A320 delayed so that a few wealthy people can Jet off ahead of them. You don't see an issue with public infrastructure being used like that?

What evidence do you have to support your theory that the exec jets caused your flight to 'take off late' (Afterall, departure is counted as push back, not take off) Any number of issues could have 'delayed' your A320. Perhaps the 2 exec jets were in fact waiting for another A320 to land so that they could takeoff and allow you to do the same, thus it was the landing A320 who 'delayed' the A320 you were on?

Dublin airport is well suited for business execs who have meeting in the city. Its a far better location than any other airport near the city. If there was another airport Im sure they would use it if it was more suitable for their needs.

Keep in mind that Dublin airport is not "public infrastructure", it is a commercial enterprise which accepts all customers and their passenger charges.

knipex

737max wrote: »

an A320 delayed so that a few wealthy people can Jet off ahead of them. You don't see an issue with public infrastructure being used like that?

How long was the A320 delayed ??

How long was it waiting for the executive jet to take off ??

You do know that the airports are run as for profit businesses ??

737max

The only/primary shareholder in Dublin Airport is the Government i.e. the Citizens of Ireland and the objectives of the Airport is to serve the best interests of the people of Ireland and maybe return a dividend.
When DAA is sold as an entity then you may be correct but that is not happening any time soon.

I have prima facie evidence; the two executive jets were in the queue ahead of me. If they weren't in the queue then we'd have taken off earlier and there was a queue of airliners behind as well and they too were waiting in queue at rush hour.

On landing at my destination I watched a plane landing in parallel to my plane. Without those sort of facilities in place at Dublin I feel Passenger Aircraft should always be given priority at rush hour and go so far as to say that at certain times of the day executive jets should be unwelcome at Dublin Airport until facilities are in place where they can be supported without impacting on flight times of airlines.

LiamaDelta

737max wrote: »

an A320 delayed so that a few wealthy people can Jet off ahead of them. You don't see an issue with public infrastructure being used like that?

Thankfully, unlike you, the airport treat all of their customers equally and without judgement hence they are able to run a profitable business. You have no idea if the people on board were 'rich' - for all you know the aircraft could have been empty. As other have pointed out you don't even know if it caused any delay to you.

737max

Think Dublin Port Tunnel; Just because you have somebody willing to pay for the service, doesn't mean they should be incentivised to use the service ...and all for the greater good of the people in the locality.

lovelyhurler

Here's my tuppence worth.

The 2 bizjets would have paid a premium to be allowed land/take off at that hour.
The wake turbulence from them would be minimal so any perceived delays to departure would be at a minimum (e.g. if there was a wide-body jet in front of you, your plane would probably have had to wait for the same amount of time to take off due to its wake turbulence.)

737max

LiamaDelta wrote: »

Thankfully, unlike you, the airport treat all of their customers equally and without judgement hence they are able to run a profitable business. You have no idea if the people on board were 'rich' - for all you know the aircraft could have been empty. As other have pointed out you don't even know if it caused any delay to you.

Do I care if a Maybach is blocking my way empty or full or with the Plutocrat's tea-cup poodle Foo-Foo sitting on the rear seat.

737max

lovelyhurler wrote: »

Here's my tuppence worth.

The 2 bizjets would have paid a premium to be allowed land/take off at that hour.
The wake turbulence from them would be minimal so any perceived delays to departure would be at a minimum (e.g. if there was a wide-body jet in front of you, your plane would probably have had to wait for the same amount of time to take off due to its wake turbulence.)

That was the other thing I was thinking about. How many precious seconds did they have to allow for the wake from the aircraft before them to die down before firing those two planes off in to the air.

Eponymous

737max wrote: »

Do I care if a Maybach is blocking my way empty or full or with the Plutocrat's tea-cup poodle Foo-Foo sitting on the rear seat.

Probably about as much as anyone cares about your perceived delay.

737max

Eponymous wrote: »

Probably about as much as anyone cares about your perceived delay.

I'm sure the accountants in all those airlines with different tail colours care about the cost of those tonnes of fuel wasted by pilots having to put the pedal to the metal so that they can still arrive on time despite leaving late.

VW 1

737max wrote:

That was the other thing I was thinking about. How many precious seconds did they have to allow for the wake from the aircraft before them to die down before firing those two planes off in to the air.

Did you miss a very important meeting by 2-3 minutes due to these two jets? It would be a terrible shame if you did!

737max

Actually I had a high speed train pre-booked from the destination airport which I was fortunate enough to catch. If I didn't catch that train then I'd have to use the regional train system or wait and pay more for a later high speed train.
Of course DAA wouldn't know anything about any of that:
Interlinking with other forms of high speed public transport from a link that is actually on site at a airport.

Those Plutocrats would just have the Chauffeur wait until they are good and ready.

Ben D Bus

737max wrote: »

Do I care if a Maybach is blocking my way empty or full or with the Plutocrat's tea-cup poodle Foo-Foo sitting on the rear seat.

You seem to be less concerned about your delay and more concerned about the fact that someone may be wealthy.

Also, maybe the occupants of those bizjets were here investing money and creating jobs for ordinary working class people

737max

Ah, the trickle down defence proffered up by every shameless capitalist.

goingnowhere

Dublin is a slot controlled airport so if the bizjet is there they have a slot. Of course it could be a medivac flight

Policy in Dublin is not to allow start up until necessary to avoid clogging the apron and burning fuel.

Dual operations 28/34 are a possibility in Dublin weather permitting and that basically eliminates delays. Lander on 28, then line up 34 and go, then line up 28 and go. Haven't seen it in use recently

If runway 10 is in use then everything gets clogged up.

737max

Isn't it a slot controlled airport which is operating currently beyond capacity?
Maybe my priorities are different to other peoples but I think Dublin should be getting as many people in and out as possible and adding Executive Jets as rush hour isn't helping at all.

Isn't there another bizjet airport in Dublin where the sole objective is to earn money from paying wealthy punters. Those birds certainly weren't on the ground long as I patiently waited while they rose to the heavens.

Tenger

737max wrote: »

I'm sure the accountants in all those airlines with different tail colours care about the cost of those tonnes of fuel wasted by pilots having to put the pedal to the metal so that they can still arrive on time despite leaving late.

You do realise that airlines factor in taxi delays into their fuel burn figures?

737max

You do realise that fuel(and time) costs money and shouldn't be needlessly wasted?
It is the reason why some airlines avoid some busy airports even though there are potential paying Customers at those airports.

Fattes

737max wrote: »

Think Dublin Port Tunnel; Just because you have somebody willing to pay for the service, doesn't mean they should be incentivised to use the service ...and all for the greater good of the people in the locality.

Perhaps they were carrying parts for an AOG aircraft somewhere? Not all private jets are carrying monopoly men with monacales who own park lane.

It could have been a medivac or an emergency flight

737max

goingnowhere wrote: »

If runway 10 is in use then everything gets clogged up.

Isn't that most of the time then?

737max

Fattes wrote: »

Perhaps they were carrying parts for an AOG aircraft somewhere? Not all private jets are carrying monopoly men with monacales who own park lane

You are arguing that they are the equivalent of an Ambulance when they are not.

Cessna_Pilot

How long were you "delayed"?

GBX

Who is your gripe actually with? The DAA? The Wealthy?
How long of a delay did you encounter? As said, what if the 2 private jets were delayed because of other aircraft - how do you know this wasn't the case?

737max

15 minutes more than I'd "reasonably" expect and I don't attribute that 15 minutes solely to those two bizjets but the point is that the planes curve around the bend while waiting for take off and I could see there was 8 or 9 planes waiting there. It isn't a matter of inconveniencing one person. It is a matter of inconveniencing 150 to 200 people each in 7 or 8 planes.

Based on queuing theory you only get delays when you are approaching capacity and those bizjets could be the size of another A320 with regard to the delays they cause to those waiting behind them.

knipex

737max wrote: »

The only/primary shareholder in Dublin Airport is the Government i.e. the Citizens of Ireland and the objectives of the Airport is to serve the best interests of the people of Ireland and maybe return a dividend.

Really ??

Because according to their website..

The Group’s core purpose is to connect Ireland with the world and its vision is to be an airport industry leader that will grow its business by delivering great service and value for airlines, passengers and business partners.

We have a strong commercial focus and work closely with our customers and stakeholders to help meet their needs in a dynamic marketplace.

Which would imply you just made that statement up.


.

737max wrote: »

I have prima facie evidence; the two executive jets were in the queue ahead of me. If they weren't in the queue then we'd have taken off earlier and there was a queue of airliners behind as well and they too were waiting in queue at rush hour.

You have no evidence that they were the cause of your delay. Just that they were in a queue before you.

Even if you took them out of the queue how much time would it have saved you ?

GBX

737max wrote: »

15 minutes more than I'd "reasonably" expect and I don't attribute that 15 minutes solely to those two bizjets but the point is that the planes curve around the bend while waiting for take off and I could see there was 8 or 9 planes waiting there. It isn't a matter of inconveniencing one person. It is a matter of inconveniencing 150 to 200 people each in 7 or 8 planes.

Based on queuing theory you only get delays when you are approaching capacity and those bizjets could be the size of another A320 with regard to the delays they cause to those waiting behind them.

How do you know that these 7/8 planes are not ready and waiting for their allotted times and not already delayed?

Storm 10

I don't know how often I have been delayed on take off at Airports but I do know and I am sure you have heard a Pilot tell the passengers that he will make up the time in the air, the landing time is what you need to know not the take off time.

Growler!!!

But were you late at your destination?

knipex

737max wrote: »

Think Dublin Port Tunnel; Just because you have somebody willing to pay for the service, doesn't mean they should be incentivised to use the service ...and all for the greater good of the people in the locality.

Firstly not sure how the last parts fits in with the rest.

Secondly what evidence do you have that the executive jets were incentivized to fly out of Dublin airport at rush hour..

Because otherwise your statement makes so sense.

knipex

737max wrote: »

Ah, the trickle down defence proffered up by every shameless capitalist.

Ahh yes comrade..

goingnowhere

Could be

Medivac
Parts for a aircraft gone tech down route
Government VIP in transit

At most it cost 60 seconds... What really hurts is a few widebody jets due separation needs, so are we going to tell EI, AA, DL, EK etc to get lost with there A330/777.

If you think ground delays are bad in Dublin, try Heathrow or Chicago

737max

Storm 10 wrote: »

I don't know how often I have been delayed on take off at Airports but I do know and I am sure you have heard a Pilot tell the passengers that he will make up the time in the air, the landing time is what you need to know not the take off time.

Every plane has an optimum cruise speed at which it is flying most economically. Making up the time in the air would mean what now?

737max

Growler!!! wrote: »

But were you late at your destination?

I already responded to this. I nearly missed the train.

VW 1

737max wrote:

Making up the time in the air would mean what now?

Nothing to you most likely.

Unless you're a shareholder in said airline.

In which case it will also mean nothing to you.

737max

goingnowhere wrote: »

Could be

Medivac
Parts for a aircraft gone tech down route
Government VIP in transit

At most it cost 60 seconds... What really hurts is a few widebody jets due separation needs, so are we going to tell EI, AA, DL, EK etc to get lost with there A330/777.

If you think ground delays are bad in Dublin, try Heathrow or Chicago

delaying a one man plane costs 60 seconds. delaying a number of passenger jets costs 60 seconds multiplied by how many people are on those planes and could be the difference between you landing on time or circling around for 20 minutes because your plane arrived at the destination airport just too late.

artanevilla

A plane is a plane is a plane. What does it matter what or who or how many it carries?

737max

VW 1 wrote: »

Nothing to you most likely.

Unless you're a shareholder in said airline.

In which case it will also mean nothing to you.

I'm a shareholder in a airline but it wasn't the airline I was on at the time. I was surprised not to see them in the queue of waiting planes.

737max

knipex wrote: »

Ahh yes comrade..

See my last post.

smurfjed

Isn't there another bizjet airport in Dublin where the sole objective is to earn money from paying wealthy punters. Those birds certainly weren't on the ground long as I patiently waited while they rose to the heavens.

Nope, its too short for us to land on! Dublin airport is slot controlled airport with a specific number of slots per hour, if these takeoff slots were not available then the corporate aircraft wouldn't have gotten them. Allowing 2 minutes separation per aircraft, you cannot attribute your 15 minute delay to 2 aircraft.

737max

knipex wrote: »

Really ??

Because according to their website......



Which would imply you just made that statement up.

I see no mention of a profit motive there. That is a very weak counter.

GBX

737max wrote: »

I already responded to this. I nearly missed the train.

Nearly being the key word. You didn't miss it yet you are looking for something to complain about and point fingers at those in the private jets who you reckon could have caused you to miss your train. You paid your fare - got where you needed to be on time to catch your train - objective achieved. Tomorrows a new day, move on.
Look on the plus side ... you got to admire a parade of 8/9 planes queueing before take off

737max

OK. I've teased this out enough. It is clear to me that someone in the DAA who isn't a plane fan has to review the benefits of allowing executive jets use scarce resources during peak hours while normal passenger air traffic suffers.

I thought there might be an angle to it which I wasn't seeing but it is clear now that there isn't.

GBX

737max wrote: »

OK. I've teased this out enough. It is clear to me that someone in the DAA who isn't a plane fan has to review the benefits of allowing executive jets use scarce resources during peak hours while normal passenger air traffic suffers.

I thought there might be an angle to it which I wasn't seeing but it is clear now that there isn't.

You are generalising that normal passenger air traffic is suffering? What evidence do you have to support this other than "you nearly missing a train" ?

737max

smurfjed wrote: »

Nope, its too short for us to land on!

Isn't that like the local squire complaining that the County Council has built roads which are too small for his Merc G-Wagen Landaulet to traverse.

smurfjed

Scarce resources, if they weren't available then they wouldn't have gotten them!
Do you seriously expect corporate aircraft to land in Waterford and have their passengers driven to Dublin?

Growler!!!

737max wrote: »

Growler!!! wrote: »

But were you late at your destination?

I already responded to this. I nearly missed the train.

So were you late or not? If you were late landing then you can complain about the private jets. If you arrived on time as advertised and still nearly missed your train then that's your fault!

737max

GBX wrote: »

What evidence do you have to support this other than "you nearly missing a train" ?

Do they need that 350million second runway in the middle of the night?

Seve OB

737max wrote: »

delaying a one man plane costs 60 seconds. delaying a number of passenger jets costs 60 seconds multiplied by how many people are on those planes and could be the difference between you landing on time or circling around for 20 minutes because your plane arrived at the destination airport just too late.

Me thinks you really are a bit of a troll here to do noting more than sh1tstir.

2 planes couldn't have delayed you more than 2 minutes. Will you cop on with your multiplier and 20 minutes can crap. You live a sad life if those 2 minutes caused you so much grief that you had to dedicate hours to a subsequent thread on boards.

My recommendation to you is get a life and stop worrying about stuff that upsets you so much