London Fire and Aftermath RIP

BlinkingLights

This building spans every style of British government and multiple types or local authority.

The issue seems to be some catastrophic failure of fire and building regulations.

A blaze like this shouldn't be possible.

They'll have to approach this like an air crash investigation and figure out exactly what happened and whether similar risks exist in other buildings elsewhere.

There could some fundamental combination of factors that were assumed to be safe individually but when combined weren't. We just don't know.

I wouldn't go apportioning blame to anyone just yet.

DvB

tara73 wrote: »

I think the architects, the building companies and the suppliers of this facade can say goodbye to their normal lifes...

Given the way these refurb projects are run by the councils & housing groups in the UK I'd be surprised if there was an Architect involved. Quite often these type of works packages are developed at council level to be dealt directly between contractors & product suppliers/manufacturers to keep costs down.
Usually they're half funded by the council & half funded by the energy tax which is included as part of all energy (gas/electricity) bills in the UK.

I'm not saying that was the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

ohnonotgmail

DvB wrote: »

Given the way these refurb projects are run by the councils & housing groups in the UK I'd be surprised if there was an Architect involved. Quite often these type of works packages are developed at council level to be dealt directly between contractors & product suppliers/manufacturers to keep costs down.
Usually they're half funded by the council & half funded by the energy tax which is included as part of all energy (gas/electricity) bills in the UK.

I'm not saying that was the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

there was an architects firm involved. their name was mentioned in a BBC article. The refurb project was not run by the council. the council do not directly manage the estate.

mikeym

My heart goes out to those who passed away and to those who have been left homeless.

LordSutch

Plastic cladding up the entire outside of the block!

Did look a bit like a giant firelighter or a peat briquette as it burnt so brightly.

I can hope & pray that that particular type of cladding is not widely used.

Presuming it was the cladding that was at fault?

robinph

DrPhilG wrote: »

I know 6 have been confirmed dead, and I heard that 50 are in hospital.

Is there no figure for how many are out and safe? Or still missing?

Some quotes saying there could have been between 400-600 living there. Whatever the number it's going to be way higher than 6 dead.

TallGlass

It was posted back a few pages by someone that the cladding was know to be flammable.

How come the cladding that was put on the side building was allowed if it was know to be flammable? And do other buildings have it, because it needs to be swiftly removed from them, as from looking at the pictures, it's not just flammable it's extremely flammable.

Even if the cladding was not a fault, it certainly did not help the building nor the fire and may have been a factor in it spreading so quickly.

LordSutch

Still only six confirmed dead!

Hopefully it stays that way.

DvB

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there was an architects firm involved. their name was mentioned in a BBC article. The refurb project was not run by the council. the council do not directly manage the estate.

Thats fair enough, thought they may be indirectly involved as partners or suchlike. But if an architectural firm was involved, I hope they have good PI insurance & criminal solicitors as they'll need both.

Mint Sauce

Not to take away from what has happened, because the UK doesn't have a government at the moment, they are in a kind of limbo on how they can respond.

The DUP have also commented that it would not be appropriate to negotiate at present on the forming of a government, as a mark of respect. On the other hand, you would think the government formation would be a priority, so a response and an investigation, can be commenced asap.

LordSutch wrote: »

Still only six confirmed dead!

Hopefully it stays that way.

Unfortunately I don't think it will. With 70 something being treated for their injuries (last figure I heard), and talk around 400 living in the block, I do fear that figure will rise.

dublinman1990

This is just a horrific incident & a huge tragedy for anyone living in the surrounding areas of the tower block in London.

The pictures that I have seen of the fire in action was extremely frightening & harrowing.

There are various eyewitnesses saying to the media today on BBC News that a lot of people who live in these flats had accommodated for families with young children and elderly people before the fire had began overnight. I really hope that this news, for the sake of humanity at large, does not become true but the scale of this tragedy could possibly become unimaginable for anyone who have lost a loved one in that tower block overnight.

My heart goes out to those people who have already lost loved ones and their way of life. There lives are now shattered for life after this brutal incident as they have changed forever. I do hope that the government & authorities in the UK will support to give them a safe & secure home for the victims after this tragedy.

I just got an update from BBC News that a news conference from London Fire Brigade, London Ambulance Service & The Metropolitan Police will begin in a few minutes time to give further updates on the incident.

Beefy78

TallGlass wrote: »

It was posted back a few pages by someone that the cladding was know to be flammable.

How come the cladding that was put on the side building was allowed if it was know to be flammable? And do other buildings have it, because it needs to be swiftly removed from them, as from looking at the pictures, it's not just flammable it's extremely flammable.

Even if the cladding was not a fault, it certainly did not help the building nor the fire and may have been a factor in it spreading so quickly.

Assuming you mean the post I put up taken from the Guardian it was that the cladding was thought NOT to be flammable:

Beefy78 wrote: »

The Contractors are saying they met all safety & fire standards in their renovations. Sounds like there were all sorts of issues at play though.

Again from the live Guardian blog:
Christopher Miers, an architect and the founder of the construction dispute resolution group Probyn Miers, said that he was surprised how fast the Grenfell Tower blaze had spread.

He said that the panels on the outside of the building should not have been able to catch fire, and that fire compartmentation and firebreaks should also have stop the spread of flames. He said:

“Nowadays, in the UK, we don’t use materials with this degree of combustibility. They are sandwich panels which are two sheets of aluminium with a core, and the core can be made of different materials. In other parts of the world, in the Middle East and in China, the core material was still being made of combustible plastic product, but that is no longer permitted and has not been permitted in the UK for a long time. The panels are not likely to have a combustible element to them. It’s much more likely that the firespread is not the panels themselves, but it’s more likely to have spread by other means.”

Miers said Grenfell Tower appeared to have undergone fairly standard renovations: “The exterior of this building was clad in a rainscreen cladding system. What you see on the outside are aluminium composite panels. Behind that there is a void, to allow air to circulate, and behind that again is normally insulation.”

Miers said the renovation would have been carried out to improve the insulation of the building.

“There are very specific regulations which limit the combustibility of the materials. Once a building is over 18m, all the materials in the exterior have to be of limited combustibility. One would expect that we will find that the exterior walling itself is not what we would think of as combustible. Having said that, most materials in intense fires can ultimately can show some degree of burning. Even when we think of material as of limited combustibility, in certain extreme situations, it can still burn.”

tara73

DvB wrote: »

Given the way these refurb projects are run by the councils & housing groups in the UK I'd be surprised if there was an Architect involved. Quite often these type of works packages are developed at council level to be dealt directly between contractors & product suppliers/manufacturers to keep costs down.
Usually they're half funded by the council & half funded by the energy tax which is included as part of all energy (gas/electricity) bills in the UK.

I'm not saying that was the case here, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was.

architects were involved.
https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/grenfell-tower-residents-had-predicted-massive-fire/10020757.article

dfx-

LordSutch wrote: »

Still only six confirmed dead!

Hopefully it stays that way.

When the Fire Commander had been in touch with crews who made it 'as far as' the 20th floor by 10am, you'd fear what was left undiscovered above them which was by then a scorched shell..

tara73

tara73 wrote: »

architects were involved.
https://www.architectsjournal.co.uk/news/grenfell-tower-residents-had-predicted-massive-fire/10020757.article

they already turned down their website, or it's down due to extensive clicks on it.

DvB

tara73 wrote: »

they already turned down their website, or it's down due to extensive clicks on it.

The article you linked in your earlier post makes reference to it being down through heavy traffic.

Havent had a chance to keep updated since the news from 6-7am so will catch up later this evening... fingers crossed theres no more fatalities.

maudgonner

12 confirmed dead now, expected to rise.

kopite386

12 people have now been confirmed dead with that due to rise again

dublinman1990

Metropolitan Police confirms that the death toll from this fire has now doubled to 12 people. Numbers expected to rise.

Pelvis

I expect that number to get a lot higher.

kopite386

Firefighters have reached the top of the building and have almost searched the whole building
The number of the fatalities I say will be a much greater figure than it is at the moment

kopite386

Apart from those that recused themselves London Fire Brigade rescued 65 people who were then handed over to London Ambulance

Mutant z

RIP to all the victims of this horrible tragedy.

Beefy78

kopite386 wrote: »

Apart from those that recused themselves London Fire Brigade rescued 65 people who were then handed over to London Ambulance

Absolute ****ing heroes. I could never do that job.

MysticMonk

Any chance this was arson?

MysticMonk

MysticMonk wrote: »

Any chance this was arson?

Yeah, course. There's a chance of anything.
One guy said his neighbour's fridge went up and that was the source. Supposedly many residents complained of power surges damaging electrical and electronic items.

kopite386

Sky News just reporting that 2 private ambulances have gone by suggesting that the recovery process has started and the ambulance was carrying bodies
It came after we could hear screams nearby during 1 report and the assumption that a family was just delivered the news they didn't want to hear.

kopite386

Beefy78 wrote: »

Absolute ****ing heroes. I could never do that job.

I agree I could never do it, the bravery they have, putting their lives on the line, while people are rushing out of burning buildings they are rushing in to save people. Heroes they are indeed.

JupiterKid

This is a horrific tragedy. It shows that high rise flat blocks, if not properly built and maintained, can be death traps. Given the extent and speed of the inferno, it's amazing that the fire services managed to rescue that many people.

It also highlights the dire housing situation in London - wealthy overseas oligarchs buying up properties in the city and leaving them vacant whilst the poor are living in often overcrowded sink estates thrown up in the postwar years to address an earlier housing crisis. The middle are simply squeezed out of living in London altogether. It can't go on indefinitely.

What is very telling is that residents repeatedly warned that Grenfel Tower was a serious fire hazard and they were ignored.

wes

Awful tragedy. Those poor people.

Good work from first responders, who did a great job.