Dublin GAA Discussion Thread - Capital Punishment

corny

Stoner wrote: »

Think you are going too far over the other side here. A number of the Kerry players were concentrating on holding and dragging from the start, it appeared to be a plan and something that didn't work for them.

To a significant degree it was a case of beating them at it, and Dublin did so, Mayo would do the same.

Kerry got traction with this on both days out last year.

However it didn't work this year. Again they have players that are better suited to playing football IMO, the fact that Dublin responded flys in the face of some general opinions around this being a new Kerry tactic, Dublin aside.

I don't see where the current Kerry management team is taking this group of players, it appears to be almost desperate, come championship they will have several players threading lightly for the second half of their games.

Yet they have great players, however based on 2015 I seriously doubt if they (management) are "holding back" killer performances. I might be wrong though.

Am I?

The Dublin backs were at the same thing. Johnny Cooper was at it, John Small was the biggest culprit on the pitch. Shane Carthy was well up for it. I'm sure i'd have found more had i being watching for the off the ball stuff. Would you pass these examples off as us responding in kind? If you don't i don't see how you've any platform to slag them off. If you do...well we'll have to agree to disagree.;)

Also, Mayo aren't responding to Kerry tactics when they play them. They try the pulling and dragging from the outset against everyone. Keegan, Boyle, the O'Connors, they're all at it from the whistle. Just like Small, McMahon and Cooper are on our end.

Its the game the top teams play. Kerry just aren't very good at it. I agree with that but that doesn't mean they're engaging in behaviour thats not commonplace.

blanch152

corny wrote: »

Am I?

The Dublin backs were at the same thing. Johnny Cooper was at it, John Small was the biggest culprit on the pitch. Shane Carthy was well up for it. I'm sure i'd have found more had i being watching for the off the ball stuff. Would you pass these examples off as us responding in kind? If you don't i don't see how you've any platform to slag them off. If you do...well we'll have to agree to disagree.;)

Also, Mayo aren't responding to Kerry tactics when they play them. They try the pulling and dragging from the outset against everyone. Keegan, Boyle, the O'Connors, they're all at it from the whistle. Just like Small, McMahon and Cooper are on our end.

Its the game the top teams play. Kerry just aren't very good at it. I agree with that but that doesn't mean they're engaging in behaviour thats not commonplace.

Of course all teams engage in it.

Didn't Kilkenny get a black card for the second-last kick-out in the All-Ireland final? The difference yesterday was that while Dublin have been known to do it at times when it suits, it was an identifiable tactic of Kerry's right from the start. At one time, Cluxton was able to solo to the opposition's 45 unopposed because every single Kerry player was hanging on the jersey of a Dub.

ProudDUB

For the 9,458,654th time...YES, Dublin are more than capable of engaging in the dark arts. YES, Dublin are more than capable of giving as good as they get. YES, Dublin are just as guilty of engaging in cynical play as every one else.

No one with a pair of eyes would dispute that, regardless of what county they are from.

What gets my goat is the pure dirt that was on display from the Kerry young bucks yesterday, that no one will talk about, or that Kerry will ever admit to. They like to call it "standing up for themselves" or "not being bullied". They were their go to cliches after the Mayo game. (Good bloody luck to them, if they think that we'll let them get away with what the Mayo snowflakes did. ) Only diff is, we'll get crucified for it in the media. The Kerry young fellas won't. They will just get more rose petals thrown at them for being the future of the "pure" game... blah blah blah....

Dyr

JRant wrote: »

Anyone at the hurling themselves?
Haven't heard much about the performance today.

Was told Hayes, McGibb and Smyth did well. TBH wasn't impressed by Smyth the few times I've seen him so that's a positive. Head's kept above the murky waters of 2A, so that's good.

Tipp will be a good test now, hopefully we push on and give them a game rather than a training session.

Stoner

corny wrote:

Am I?

Yes.

Kerry were at it all over the pitch yesterday, go against the grain for the crack all you want Corny but that "young lad" O'Shea should have went off with Small. The other lad Burns was at it too and their McCarthy's late tackles on Cluxton. The young players were wound up.
They have the usual Crowley's that every team has and needs but there was a clear set up plan, it didn't work there was no plan B. Some of the lads at it yesterday don't even have it in them to begin with imo, they'd be better off concentrating on football.

Dublin were well able for it yesterday, just like the old Kerry team were well able (sometimes) for Tyrone.

Cooper will know he was in a game today, Lowndes was cleaned out too.

Regarding Mayo I didn't say they would "respond to it" I said they'd lap it up and win on frees alone, they wouldn't need to indulge in it as they would with Dublin imo, tbh it's playing into the hands of the top two.

Again I don't think Fitzsimmons is holding anything back. I think 2015 put that worry to bed. Kerry football is it's own problem, but given the football we've seen at underage level over the past few years, you'd wonder what's going on.

They've a few guys to come back in, including at least one that has kept Kilkenny quiet before.

corny

Stoner wrote: »

Yes.

Kerry were at it all over the pitch yesterday, go against the grain for the crack all you want Corny but that "young lad" O'Shea should have went off with Small. The other lad Burns was at it too and their McCarthy's late tackles on Cluxton. The young players were wound up.
They have the usual Crowley's that every team has and needs but there was a clear set up plan, it didn't work there was no plan B. Some of the lads at it yesterday don't even have it in them to begin with imo, they'd be better off concentrating on football.

Dublin were well able for it yesterday, just like the old Kerry team were well able (sometimes) for Tyrone.

You're the contrary one, not me. I'm the balanced, level headed one!

Seriously though. I don't agree with any of that.

Stoner

Ok so, what was their plan B in the second half ? I said they had none, you disagreed with it.
Please don't talk about fittness I've been listening to that since 2011.

I'm pretty sure Kerry set out to have a physical game, man for man all over the pitch with all their lads bought in.

How do you think they set up ?
What was their plan when it didn't work?

corny

Stoner wrote: »

Please don't talk about fittness I've been listening to that since 2011.

Pity about ye.

The issue at hand for me is whether one team or both teams engaged in the off the ball cheating. What Kerry's gameplan or plan B has to do with that i've no idea.

Both teams pulled the jersey. It doesn't constitute a 'gameplan' or 'Plan A' per se. Its part of the game for both. Thats my contention.

The completely separate issue of Kerry's gameplan?. I don't disagree, OR CARE, but they generally just chased shadows while Dublin moved the ball around them in the second half.

Stoner

corny wrote:

Both teams pulled the jersey. It doesn't constitute a 'gameplan' or 'Plan A' per se. Its part of the game for both. Thats my contention.

I made the point about the lack of a plan B, you quoted my text and said you didn't agree with any of it.

When asked to explain the plan B, you said it was a completely separate issue, read over what you quoted, posted and disagreed with.

I'd go as far as to say you've created a position for yourself to argue against. I never said there was a game plan based on pulling jerseys that's just an attempt to misrepresent and simplify my position.

I said Mayo would lap it up from Kerry and win on frees. That point stands.

And putting it up to a team 15 on 15 is a game plan. Just as much as ignoring Cian O'Sullivan when he takes the ball out to double up on McMahon is a game plan. That's not what we saw yesterday.

ProudDUB

I'm with Stoner on this one. However, CO'C needs to find a cure for his dose of the yips. If he doesn't, all the swan diving in the world, won't amount to a hill o'beans, if he can't kick 'em over the bar, when it matters.

DDC1990

Lads the majority in the Hill and a few Season ticket holders in 306 (right beside me in 307 seat 1) cheered Clifford pulling up with an injury.

It pissed me off, but thats life. There are dickheads all over the country. Mob mentality sometimes rules on the Hill. Once one muppet cheerd they probably all joined in (like the Lowndes/Connolly thing last year)

I was there for the All Ireland Final last year and it was totally different. One loud dickhead was told to cop on by his mates and they were sound supporters to be around. They were applauding Clifford's scores in the Minor game.

Clifford will get a lot worse then that during his career so i'm sure he couldn't give a ****e.

In terms of the match it was a total mismatch. Outfought, out played, out run.

It's a pity we couldn't teach Brendan O'Sullivan how to play football (no drugs for that), because he's about the only man big enough and fast enough to cover McAuley (probably my MOTM, though Kilkenny destroyed Murphy as well). Dublin goals were kind of poxy in the end with deflections etc. The better goal chances from Rock (x2) and Howard were missed and saved. Could have been a lot worse in reality.

Looks like it will be down to Mayo again this year.

As for Kerry being dirty. Look closer to home before throwing stones. I can't believe that when a Dublin aupporter tries to explain that both sides are at it he gets shouted down and told that Kerry are extra specially dirty in comparison. Kerry had more high tackles. Dublin had more third man tackles. Both sides pulled and dragged.

The ref was bizzare and from a Kerry point of view he seemed extremely one sided but obviously had no influence on the result. Every Kerry attack in the second half appeared to end in a free out to Dublin for very little. He did miss a few jersey pulls on Dublin players in the first half especially on kickouts. I don't expect anyone to agree here though. For all the frees I though Kerry should have had i'm sure there is an equal amount of frees ye think Dublin should have had. We're just more focussed on our own teams. Very hard at the match to judge it unbiasedly.

EICVD

I think there’s a bit of confusion going around about ‘cheering’ Clifford being injured, was probably more a case of the crowd cheering the pressure put on the Kerry attack, the defending & coming out with the ball as it happened. Was never any cheering an injury around me, only time I saw Clifford ‘injured’ was after the final whistle when he’d a cramp.

DDC1990

Cooper won the ball and was going clear. Clifford was chasing and pulled up. Then the cheer went up. Trust me, no confusion.

It doesn't reflect badly on anyone who didn't cheer. I'm sure the ones who did wouldn't give a ****e either way what anyone else thinks of them.

Edit: I'll stop now because it seems like I'm making a bigger issue of this then it should be. I can't say "I don't care" and proceed to make 20 posts on the topic.

ProudDUB

If Cooper beat Clifford to a ball, then that is what they were cheering, not Clifford getting cramp. Players get cramp all the time. No one cheers it. Johnny Cooper beating his man yet again? Hell yes, that will be cheered by Dubs. I know I sure as heck did and I make no apologies for it. Clifford (or anyone else) crampng up, had absolutley nothing to do with it.

EICVD

DDC1990 wrote: »

Cooper won the ball and was going clear. Clifford was chasing and pulled up. Then the cheer went up. Trust me, no confusion.

It doesn't reflect badly on anyone who didn't cheer. I'm sure the ones who did wouldn't give a ****e either way what anyone else thinks of them.

Edit: I'll stop now because it seems like I'm making a bigger issue of this then it should be. I can't say "I don't care" and proceed to make 20 posts on the topic.

Fair enough, clearly was the idiotic minority that all counties have. Cheering a red or black card or bad miss is harmless if annoying but no place in the game for cheering an injury no matter what we think of the injured party.

ProudDUB

Clifford stayed on the pitch for the entire 75 minutes? Where is this presumption that he was injured coming from? Since when has being knackered tired (as you would be if you've been chasing Johnny Cooper around for the previous 40 minutes) or cramping up, qualified as being injured? :rolleyes:

corny

DDC1990 wrote: »

Lads the majority in the Hill and a few Season ticket holders in 306 (right beside me in 307 seat 1) cheered Clifford pulling up with an injury.

It pissed me off, but thats life. There are dickheads all over the country. Mob mentality sometimes rules on the Hill. Once one muppet cheerd they probably all joined in (like the Lowndes/Connolly thing last year)

I was there for the All Ireland Final last year and it was totally different. One loud dickhead was told to cop on by his mates and they were sound supporters to be around. They were applauding Clifford's scores in the Minor game.

Clifford will get a lot worse then that during his career so i'm sure he couldn't give a ****e.

In terms of the match it was a total mismatch. Outfought, out played, out run.

It's a pity we couldn't teach Brendan O'Sullivan how to play football (no drugs for that), because he's about the only man big enough and fast enough to cover McAuley (probably my MOTM, though Kilkenny destroyed Murphy as well). Dublin goals were kind of poxy in the end with deflections etc. The better goal chances from Rock (x2) and Howard were missed and saved. Could have been a lot worse in reality.

Looks like it will be down to Mayo again this year.

As for Kerry being dirty. Look closer to home before throwing stones. I can't believe that when a Dublin aupporter tries to explain that both sides are at it he gets shouted down and told that Kerry are extra specially dirty in comparison. Kerry had more high tackles. Dublin had more third man tackles. Both sides pulled and dragged.

The ref was bizzare and from a Kerry point of view he seemed extremely one sided but obviously had no influence on the result. Every Kerry attack in the second half appeared to end in a free out to Dublin for very little. He did miss a few jersey pulls on Dublin players in the first half especially on kickouts. I don't expect anyone to agree here though. For all the frees I though Kerry should have had i'm sure there is an equal amount of frees ye think Dublin should have had. We're just more focussed on our own teams. Very hard at the match to judge it unbiasedly.

Wasn't it just cramp though? He certainly seemed to be stretching out his calf like it was. I wouldn't cheer a genuine injury, don't think many would.... i'd give the supporters the benefit of the doubt and say they knew it was nothing a good nights sleep wouldn't cure.

corny

Stoner wrote: »

I made the point about the lack of a plan B, you quoted my text and said you didn't agree with any of it.

When asked to explain the plan B, you said it was a completely separate issue, read over what you quoted, posted and disagreed with.

I'd go as far as to say you've created a position for yourself to argue against. I never said there was a game plan based on pulling jerseys that's just an attempt to misrepresent and simplify my position.

I said Mayo would lap it up from Kerry and win on frees. That point stands.

And putting it up to a team 15 on 15 is a game plan. Just as much as ignoring Cian O'Sullivan when he takes the ball out to double up on McMahon is a game plan. That's not what we saw yesterday.

I'll be more precise with what i quote in the future for you.

Just to be clear though, the argument you inexplicably introduced 'Plan B or whatever'...i've no interest in that. The bit i cared about and what was originally the only topic of discussion between us....cheating, pulling the jersey etc..... well i gave my opinion already.

DDC1990

Just for clarification it wasn't Cooper, but Andrew McGowen who stepped away from Clifford. My bad on that one.

Stoner

I wasn't on the hill. I heard a cheer and cheered myself everytime he was beaten to a ball, that is really a mark of respect for a player that's considered a danger, Donnaghy and AOS get it too when they miss.


I surrendered my season tickets to someone from work, I'll check it with him. Not that I don't believe you DDC1990, this lad is a Lawier and they are an honest bunch.

JRant

corny wrote: »

Pity about ye.

The issue at hand for me is whether one team or both teams engaged in the off the ball cheating. What Kerry's gameplan or plan B has to do with that i've no idea.

Both teams pulled the jersey. It doesn't constitute a 'gameplan' or 'Plan A' per se. Its part of the game for both. Thats my contention.

The completely separate issue of Kerry's gameplan?. I don't disagree, OR CARE, but they generally just chased shadows while Dublin moved the ball around them in the second half.

Kerry's game plan in that first half was very obvious. Push up on the kick outs and stop runners from deep breaking past them, by fair or foul means. It worked for the first 15/20 minutes but requires a huge intensity to maintain.

The problem for Kerry in the second half was that a: they already had a black card and b: a lot of their players were on yellows. This freed up our lads to play to their strengths and the Kerry lads couldn't risk another yellow or black so space opened up.

I wouldn't say they were dirty at all but stopping runners was certainly their main goal. Once they had to track players instead, we just breezed past them.

We are certainly well capable of the same, in fact we gave away a few frees stopping them countering quickly. All teams do it, in fact it's suicide not to at times.

PARlance

Stoner wrote: »

I wasn't on the hill. I heard a cheer and cheered myself everytime he was beaten to a ball, that is really a mark of respect for a player that's considered a danger, Donnaghy and AOS get it too when they miss.


I surrendered my season tickets to someone from work, I'll check it with him. Not that I don't believe you DDC1990, this lad is a Lawier and they are an honest bunch.

That's it. Nobody cheers an injury (out loud). When a big player for the opposition gets beaten, misses, gets landed on the ground... then there's usually a decent roar.

JRant

PARlance wrote: »

That's it. Nobody cheers an injury (out loud). When a big player for the opposition gets beaten, misses, gets landed on the ground... then there's usually a decent roar.

Absolutely and make no mistake about it, this Clifford lad is going to be a superstar for Kerry. He is as skillful a forward as you're likely to see. Give him a season too bed in and he'll be their version of Conor McManus

PARlance

JRant wrote: »

Absolutely and make no mistake about it, this Clifford lad is going to be a superstar for Kerry. He is as skillful a forward as you're likely to see. Give him a season too bed in and he'll be their version of Conor McManus

No doubt that he's an unreal talent. It'll be interesting to see how the next few years pan out. There's absolutely no science behind it, but I'm always a bit fearful of those tall gangly young lads as they start to bulk up / play Senior.

The fact that Kerry management seem disinterested in bulking them up may help Clifford in this sense.

JRant

PARlance wrote: »

No doubt that he's an unreal talent. It'll be interesting to see how the next few years pan out. There's absolutely no science behind it, but I'm always a bit fearful of those tall gangly young lads as they start to bulk up / play Senior.

The fact that Kerry management seem disinterested in bulking them up may help Clifford in this sense.

He should fill out naturally in a year or two. The issue some young players face is bulking up too quickly and their bodies just can't handle the extra bulk. He will need to add a few kgs though, just to handle Senior level a bit better.

It will be interesting to see how Kerry use him. He's lethal on the inside forward line but with their struggles in the half forwards he may end up playing a bit more football there. I think it would be a huge mistake but if they struggle to get any ball I to him, like the second half, then he may need to come out a bit.

ProudDUB

God forgive me, but I can't stop laughing at this. :D:D

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/mick-o-dwyer-gets-his-hands-on-sam-maguire-yet-again-1.3424292?mode=amp

It (Sam)had been smuggled out of Croke Park on Sunday after what had not been a good day at the office for the county, with the Kerry football team being well-beaten by a rampant Dublin in the National League......

.......Tim Murphy, the chairman of the Kerry County Board, revealed how he and Mikey Sheehy had smuggled Sam out of Croke Park in a black plastic sack. They had arranged the handover with the Dublin management, but did not want to be seen with the cup after such a defeat.



Have they given it back yet, or do we need to send out a search party? :P

blanch152

DDC1990 wrote: »

Lads the majority in the Hill and a few Season ticket holders in 306 (right beside me in 307 seat 1) cheered Clifford pulling up with an injury.

It pissed me off, but thats life. There are dickheads all over the country. Mob mentality sometimes rules on the Hill. Once one muppet cheerd they probably all joined in (like the Lowndes/Connolly thing last year)

I was there for the All Ireland Final last year and it was totally different. One loud dickhead was told to cop on by his mates and they were sound supporters to be around. They were applauding Clifford's scores in the Minor game.

Clifford will get a lot worse then that during his career so i'm sure he couldn't give a ****e.

In terms of the match it was a total mismatch. Outfought, out played, out run.

It's a pity we couldn't teach Brendan O'Sullivan how to play football (no drugs for that), because he's about the only man big enough and fast enough to cover McAuley (probably my MOTM, though Kilkenny destroyed Murphy as well). Dublin goals were kind of poxy in the end with deflections etc. The better goal chances from Rock (x2) and Howard were missed and saved. Could have been a lot worse in reality.

Looks like it will be down to Mayo again this year.

As for Kerry being dirty. Look closer to home before throwing stones. I can't believe that when a Dublin aupporter tries to explain that both sides are at it he gets shouted down and told that Kerry are extra specially dirty in comparison. Kerry had more high tackles. Dublin had more third man tackles. Both sides pulled and dragged.

The ref was bizzare and from a Kerry point of view he seemed extremely one sided but obviously had no influence on the result. Every Kerry attack in the second half appeared to end in a free out to Dublin for very little. He did miss a few jersey pulls on Dublin players in the first half especially on kickouts. I don't expect anyone to agree here though. For all the frees I though Kerry should have had i'm sure there is an equal amount of frees ye think Dublin should have had. We're just more focussed on our own teams. Very hard at the match to judge it unbiasedly.

I don't know about the third man tackles being less from Kerry. Fenton got cleaned out every single time he passed the ball. He just got up and played on.

DDC1990

blanch152 wrote:

I don't know about the third man tackles being less from Kerry. Fenton got cleaned out every single time he passed the ball. He just got up and played on.

Dublin's looping back and forward is effective because the man who gives off the ball (often Fenton) changes their line to hit/bump the covering defender leaving the now ball carrier with that extra bit of space. Hence the third man tackle comment. It happened 2/3 time an attack in the second half. Refs aren't pulling it, so why stop doing it.

It's what happened in the Crowley/Fenton incident, but Crowley is the wrong guy to bodycheck. Having said that, Crowley may have been on his feet and Fenton on the ground after but Crowley was gasping for air. Two tough men neither of whom were going to take a step back.

Gael85

PARlance wrote: »

That's it. Nobody cheers an injury (out loud). When a big player for the opposition gets beaten, misses, gets landed on the ground... then there's usually a decent roar.

When Stephen Cluxton put a kickout over the sideline against Kerry in 2016 semi final it was like a goal to Kerry fans they were celebrating that much

Stoner

Not so sure DDC1990. I get there is an element of that or else covering yourself from a hit.
What you've described could also be viewed as a potential black card for the covering defender in body checking the player who just laid off the ball to prevent him getting back into the play.

I'd be fairly sure that had regardless off how Fenton was set up he would have been hit after he passed the ball off.

Crowley is a tough man alright. Cleaned John Small out in a league game before did a number on Lowndes on Sunday too. Took a big one from Mcmanamon and McCarthy in the past too.

Kerry were missing some steel on Sunday, I think Morley and Griffin will add that back. The fullback didn't have a great day on Sunday. Those two would make a big difference to Kerry as I'm sure Morley would be on Kilkennys again.
Could add Murphy back into a half forward line that needs him too.