Weak lower back and too tall to deadlift without pain

DefinitelyMarc

Hi folks,

The title says it all really. I've been sticking to using a trap bar and managed to get up to about 8 reps of 100KG, but my bench is 85 X 5 and my squat is 90 X 8 at the moment, so it seems like I have muscular imbalance as well as a crappy back.

I'm 6'1 and honestly thought I had good back strength before I started lifting (Been at it properly for about 2 years now. I've had several injuries that set me back a good few times). However I've never been able to deadlift with form properly because of my height/bad back. I know my deadlift is very low for my bodyweight (90KG), so any tips to improve it would be appreciated!

I also recently changed my routine based on some feedback I got. Any help here would also be helpful:

(Old)
T-Bar deadlifts
Dumbbell curls
Hyperextensions
Dumbbell rows
Wide Lat Pulldowns
Bent Over Rows
Lying rear delt raises

(New routine, changed two weeks ago)
T-Bar deadlifts
Long bar lifts
Tricep pull-downs
Upright rows
Wide Lat Pulldowns
Narrow lay pulldowns
Close grip chin ups
Bent Over Rows

Reps4jesus

if you are never planning on becoming a power lifter then there is no need for you to deadlift. If it hurts your lower back then your form is almost certainly off. You can either just give them up, or spend some time getting your form corrected.
You can do things like rack pulls too which are less likely to aggravate your lower back while still providing many of the benefits of deadlifts too.
Is that a back day routine you have laid out above?

Zillah

I'm 6'5" and am doing 100+kg on a regular bar without much trouble these days. Height isn't necessarily a problem (and indeed, if you look at world class powerlifters a lot of them tend to be huge).

You could have two problems:
1 - Your form is crap.
2 - Your back is too weak for the weight you're doing.

So you should:
1 - Get someone to analyse your form and find out what you're doing wrong.
2 - Drop the weight and build up the strength in your back with perfect form.

There is no point trying to strengthen the weakest point by going heavy, because it won't be able for it and your form will be worse than ever. Get perfect form, go lighter and build yourself back up to heavier weights.

It's easy to say give up on the deadlifts because of a weak lower back, but if you do deadlifts properly they'll actually strengthen your back and help avoid back issues.

Take a video of your deadlifts and share it here if you.

freemenfitness

Yep I agree with what was said above I'm 6'5" and about 85kg lifting well over 100 regularly with no issue.

It is likely as was said your form is off or the weight you are using is too heavy.

Deadlifts are one of the best things to strengthen your back so abandoning them won't solve the issue. Find out what's causing the issue and deal with that.

DefinitelyMarc

@Reps: It's more of a strength thing. I want to become much stronger and only do isolation exercises because I don't want to just do pure powerlifting. Also t'is a back routine alright, I separated it into my old back routine and my new one in case anything stood out as particularly bad that I didn't catch.

@Zillah: But I can lift 100KG with the trap bar just fine, which is where I'm a bit lost. If I lift with good form on the deadlift I can't lift nearly as much as I can with the trap bar or just injure myself. I also scrape the crap out of my knees. I'll upload a video over the weekend, hopefully it'll shed some light on the situation...

@freemen: Yeah, this is why I don't want to abandon deadlifts. I've been told so many times that they're amazing for your overall strength, so I'm not letting them go! Did your height get in the way early on in your bodybuilding career?

Mars Bar

If I'm right, and I stand to be corrected, the trap bar will engage more of your quads and you're closer to a squat than a front bar deadlift would be. So for that reason alone you will shift more weight. I don't think you should expect your front bar deadlift weight to match your trap bar deadlifts.

freemenfitness

Hey OP never done bodybuilding more do martial arts and gymnastics. But for me, the only issue was mobility being tall you have further to get down to the bar so make sure your form is on point and you can actually get into the positions was a big one. I work on my mobility religiously so it's no issue now.

If you are scraping your knees there could be an issue with form video would be good as it can be very hard to offer advice onine in general.

Also as was stated above the T-bar is a very different movement a coach I know calls it a "squatlift" as its not really a squat or a deadlift and with the grip in neutral position its not the same movement.

Zillah

DefinitelyMarc wrote: »

@Zillah: But I can lift 100KG with the trap bar just fine, which is where I'm a bit lost. If I lift with good form on the deadlift I can't lift nearly as much as I can with the trap bar or just injure myself. I also scrape the crap out of my knees. I'll upload a video over the weekend, hopefully it'll shed some light on the situation...

Trap bar is an easier motion, less emphasis on the back, more work done by the legs. Regular bar 100kg will be much harder for a tall person than trap bar 100kg, you shouldn't expect them to be equivalent.

My money is on your normal bar form having a problem.

Dtp1979

I switched from trap bar deadlifts to conventional a few months back. Im 6'1 and I've always had lower back trouble and still do to a certain extent.
Trap bar lifting is wayyy easier to rack up big numbers. Its 75% deadlift 25% squat. I was always too scared to do conventional lifting but decided to give it a go. I can pull 170 at the moment and hoping to get near 200 in a couple of months and I'm pretty new to this. So height and a weak back shouldn't hold you back. Obviously get advise from a Physio first. My form is far from perfect as you'll see in another thread, but honestly my back has never been stronger thanks to deadlifting and Romanian deadlifting.

Brian?

Trap bar deadlifts have more in common with a squat than a conventional deadlift.

If you can't handle the weight, lower it until you can pull with good form and work up. I'm 6ft 3 and my max deadlift was just over 2x body weight.

LincolnHawk

I don't like high rep deads because form breaks down with fatigue and injuries ensue.
Some will disagree but I'd keep the reps to 5 at most, no touch and go, reset for each rep, nice and strict.

Anyway, OP, you might lack the mobility for a good starting position. Video your lifts and see how they look

LincolnHawk

This article is a little dry but some great details in there
http://startingstrength.com/article/deadlift-mechanics-the-obvious-can-be-obscure

JayRoc

DefinitelyMarc wrote: »

@Reps: It's more of a strength thing. I want to become much stronger and only do isolation exercises because I don't want to just do pure powerlifting. Also t'is a back routine alright, I separated it into my old back routine and my new one in case anything stood out as particularly bad that I didn't catch.

@Zillah: But I can lift 100KG with the trap bar just fine, which is where I'm a bit lost. If I lift with good form on the deadlift I can't lift nearly as much as I can with the trap bar or just injure myself. I also scrape the crap out of my knees. I'll upload a video over the weekend, hopefully it'll shed some light on the situation...

@freemen: Yeah, this is why I don't want to abandon deadlifts. I've been told so many times that they're amazing for your overall strength, so I'm not letting them go! Did your height get in the way early on in your bodybuilding career?

From the description, it sounds like you might be trying to use trapbar form on a conventional DL, ie squatting the bar. Particularly if your knees are being scraped as you say.

Height is just one part of the equation, if you have longer femurs than someone else the same height as you, conventional pulling is going to be more awkward and getting into a decent set-up will prove that bit more difficult.

This would also be consistent with the bar scraping your knees. I see it all the time with lads who have long femurs

Taylor365

I've had the same problem as of the last 8 months (From 10 years of training) and I'm 6'4.

My max DL was 175kg but now, picking anything up in a deadlift position risks pulling a muscle. I've pulled a muscle picking an empty bar up!

Reason?

Sitting at a desk all day, I've train myself to not slouch, in doing so, I'm now naturally over-extended (have an anterior tilt). In deadlifting, and even squating, this over-loads the lower back which then tries to stabilise using nearby muscles. I've pulled a muscle in the right side of my mid back 4 times now. The latest, WAS JUST FROM WALKING!

I've tried all the auxiliary back strengthening exercises, hip strengthening, continuous stretching etc. Nothing helped.

Solution?

Working on correcting the tilt.

I've a list of exercises from a physio to do every day to get my natural position back into a neutral spine.

Exercises include:

Correct form planks, squeezing the glutes, engaging the lower abdomen and slowly raising each leg.
Glute bridge, keep hips up while slowly straightening each leg into the air and back.
Cat and Cow yoga poses.

Mellor

Trap bar is an easier left. The ROM is often less, the grip is less taxing. And as others have mentioned, you can taje up a more squat like start position.

Work on your posterior chain to get stronger.
Work on you mobility and flexibility to move and lift better.

BadBannana

You're definitely not too tall to deadlift. It's most definitely a form issue, ask someone at the gym or look at youtube videos and figure out what you're doing wrong

Transform

post a vid and can you touch your toes comfortably from a sitting position with straight legs?

DefinitelyMarc

Thanks for all the feedback folks, seems like a few videos wouldn't go astray so I made two:

This one, where I'm at my most comfortable, aside from also trying to stop the bar from scraping my knees.

And this one where I look a bit silly, because the bar is scraping my knees. This one is where I think I'm actually closer to good form.

Looking at the video, my femur does look pretty long.

LuckyLloyd

I'm 6'4" and I scrape the bar against my knees when I Deadlift. Your low back is in a better position in the second video, but you're not resetting between each rep and it disimproves as the set goes on. One thing you should do is place your bar on some plates on either side to raise them up. This will help the issue you are having, and your plates are not full size anyway, so you've actually been lifting at a deficit to date.

Zillah

DefinitelyMarc wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback folks, seems like a few videos wouldn't go astray so I made two:

This one, where I'm at my most comfortable, aside from also trying to stop the bar from scraping my knees.

And this one where I look a bit silly, because the bar is scraping my knees. This one is where I think I'm actually closer to good form.

Looking at the video, my femur does look pretty long.

Alright well that solves it. You are rounding out your lower back a lot, which is a one-way ticket to hurting yourself.



I'm sure you know you're suppose to keep your back straight, but knowing and doing are different things, so it might be difficult to troubleshoot from here. I think at the very least you should try an empty bar and see if you can do proper form - that will at least tell us if there is a fundamental problem or if it's just too heavy.

Caliden

Lift from blocks.

The plates you're using don't look to be the same diameter of the plates in my gym which means the bar is closer to the floor.

Brian?

Caliden wrote: »

Lift from blocks.

The plates you're using don't look to be the same diameter of the plates in my gym which means the bar is closer to the floor.

Agreed. Those plates are a smaller diameter than normal, you're doing deficit deadlifts.

Alf Veedersane

As a reference, the underside of the bar should be about 7.5-8" off the floor when there's a 20/25kg plate on both ends.

Dtp1979

I actually have a handy way of measuring that

Mellor

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

As a reference, the underside of the bar should be about 7.5-8" off the floor when there's a 20/25kg plate on both ends.

211mm so almost 8.5"
Having the wrong plates can make a huge difference.

Alf Veedersane

Mellor wrote: »

211mm so almost 8.5"
Having the wrong plates can make a huge difference.

Working off diameter of 450mm and hole of 500m I had it closer to 8" but 7.5-8.5 is handy ballpark figure

DefinitelyMarc

Caliden wrote: »

Lift from blocks.

The plates you're using don't look to be the same diameter of the plates in my gym which means the bar is closer to the floor.

They are indeed, but this is only because I didn't have access to my gym over the weekend.

Would a video with proper 20KG weights be better?

newwan

Why deadlift at all??
I spent years trying to find a form so I could deadlift without murdering my lower back so I couldn't run the next day...

But I couldnt find a way. So I stopped deadlifting forever...

There is no essential exercise bar running. 😘 There's always another way

Zillah

newwan wrote: »

Why deadlift at all?? There is no essential exercise bar running

You dun walked into the wrong town here boy.

freemenfitness

Did you spend years trying to fix the issues preventing you from deadlifting properly? or did you just spend the time trying to find some technique that would somehow allow you to do it. Don't even get me started on the damage running can do.

But with a post like that not sure if you are just trolling.

Anyways op as said above try from blocks or rack pulls and let us know how you get on. I am sure it will help those weight are super low you would need some decent mobility to lift from that deficit.

Transform

newwan wrote: »

Why deadlift at all??
I spent years trying to find a form so I could deadlift without murdering my lower back so I couldn't run the next day...

But I couldnt find a way. So I stopped deadlifting forever...

There is no essential exercise bar running. 😘 There's always another way

i think knowing and practicing picking things up off the floor safely is fairly mandatory.

Id put running fairly low on the pecking order

Transform

freemenfitness wrote: »

Did you spend years trying to fix the issues preventing you from deadlifting properly? or did you just spend the time trying to find some technique that would somehow allow you to do it. Don't even get me started on the damage running can do.

But with a post like that not sure if you are just trolling.

Anyways op as said above try from blocks or rack pulls and let us know how you get on. I am sure it will help those weight are super low you would need some decent mobility to lift from that deficit.

bump on more mobility work especially on core work also, check if you can pass my two tests here as most cant and thats a huge aspect to work on as if the midline is not contributing then you're asking a stable joint (your lower back) to become a mobile joint - https://www.dominicmunnelly.ie/new-blog-1/2016/11/18/mid-line-stability-exercises

Alf Veedersane

newwan wrote: »

There is no essential exercise bar running. 😘 There's always another way

What's the other way to picking up anything?

Running around it three times so it picks itself up?

Brian?

newwan wrote: »

Why deadlift at all??
I spent years trying to find a form so I could deadlift without murdering my lower back so I couldn't run the next day...

But I couldnt find a way. So I stopped deadlifting forever...

There is no essential exercise bar running. 😘 There's always another way

Wash your mouth out with soap, learn to deadlift, return to the forum and apologise.

In my experience the deadlift is a simple exercise to learn and execute. What did you do to try to learn?

Transform et al, have a point about mobility. But even with fairly crap mobility you should be able to deadlift with reasonaable form. My back has been sore after heavy deadlifts, but never in pain. Soreness from DOMS.

deadlybuzzman

newwan wrote: »

But I couldnt find a way.

Did you look into hamstring flexibility, pelvic tilt and Scottish hip?

Mellor

Lads cut him a break, his body is obviously crippled from all the running. Can barely tie his laces at this stage.

El Horseboxo

I'm well over 6 foot with a lot of the length in the legs and at my peak could deadlift in excess of 600 lbls pain free. Really had to nail form and work on mobility though as I didn't just naturally or instinctively have good form. It was sore and awkward in the beginning. But a car crash and recent enough inguinal hernia surgery has scared me off deadlifts. Reset and work on form. But if you still get pain, whether it be from something else or just an inability to maintain form. Don't do them. I miss them but I've built back to my old physique and strength post surgery through other means . I now do rack pulls to get some of the benefits.

It's amazing how many people I see deadlift inguinal decent enough weight but with with horrible form. Probably no pain now. But I imagine it will arrive at some stage. Your back deserves so much respect.