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BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Remember that the 80 is going to go to Palmerstown (replacing the 26), so I don’t think that’s an option.

    Perhaps the solution is another radial between the Airport and Palmerston Park in Rathmines (in sync with the A2), thereby removing the diversion that the 80 is planned to take via Highfield Road, would solve the problem of frequency at the Airport, and also provides a sweeper route for Rathmines.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,169 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Should really be towed instead.

    Yes, my bad, I misread the map.

    So the A2 would be a significant reduction in frequency and capacity to the airport versus the 16/41 at the moment, from 9 buses per hour (16 + 41) to just 5 pre hour for the A2!

    As you say the A2 or some version of it needs to have a 6 minute frequency to match.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,169 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    BTW the N2 buses position appear to be tracking now in the apps.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭thomasj


    What about the option of extending the D4 to the Airport and running every 12 minutes ?

    Would serve part of the Swords Road, would provide an Airport connection for the Crumlin and Malahide Road corridors , would keep the Beaumont connection for staff living there and would increase the frequency to the Airport.

    Post edited by thomasj on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,506 ✭✭✭VG31


    While it definitely looks like there won't be enough capacity to the airport, I don't think they necessarily have to match the current 16 + 41 capacity.

    From my own experience of using the 41 a lot, I've observed these primary groups of passengers.

    1. Northbound
      1. People going to Swords
      2. Staff going to the airport (also use 16 and even 33/41c in some cases)
      3. People going to stops before the airport (notably Northwood and Airways Industrial Estate)
      4. People going from the airport to Swords (mostly staff)
      5. Airline passengers travelling to the airport
    2. Southbound
      1. People going from Swords to the city centre or stops other than the airport
      2. Staff travelling from the airport (also use 16 and even 33/41c in some cases)
      3. Airline passengers travelling from the airport
      4. People going from Swords to the airport (mostly staff)
      5. People getting on after the airport (Northwood is usually busiest stop)

    The order can vary a lot depending on the time of day. For instance, group 1c is significant in the morning but small for the rest of the day.

    Although I've never taken the 41 in the early AM, the airport seems to be the vast majority of demand at that time.

    The changes I would expect for these groups in terms of using the A2 are

    • Northbound
      • 1a - no longer applicable
      • 1b - similar but some should move to the 19 and 24
      • 1c - unchanged but I think the routes going to Swords and bypassing the airport are enough to compensate for this
      • 1d - Will use L81 instead
      • 1e - unchanged mostly
    • Southbound
      • 2a - no longer applicable
      • 2b - similar but some should move to the 19 and 24
      • 2c - unchanged mostly
      • 2d - Will use L81 instead
      • 2e - Not an issue for passengers getting on at the airport



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    You can still keep the western part of the 80, just curtail it to Ringsend or The Point or something. Alternatively merge the 22 and the 85 into an A5; move the 80 to follow the F-spine per the 85 alignment, and have the 81 cover Highfield Road?

    I just really dislike the concept of radial routes that also follow spine routes. They really need to be merged into the spine where possible. I have similar gripes with the 20/21 following the D-spine (really should be part of the spine routes), the 6 following the H-spine (should really be an H4), the 52 following the C-spine, and the 98 following the B-spine.

    The D5? Do you not mean the D4 which currently is earmarked to terminate at Coolock? I'm not sure you'd want to risk clogging up the Beaumont Hospital bus with airport passengers.

    I think they may argue that with the addition of the 19 (1 per hour) and the 24 (3 per hour) you get to the same level of service; but the 19 is a windy Ballymun granny bus that only goes to Parnell Square, and the 24 is a Finglas suburb service that doesn't go near the heart of the capital where the tourists are likely to be headed.

    This is precisely why the A2 needs a 6-minute service.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭StreetLight


    I would regard a link between the Airport and the city centre as a special case and should be a high frequency, stand-alone route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,364 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    For reference I have actually emailed local TDs and received some responses. They are aware of the over loading on the 41 during the early hours, but they don't have the resources to increase it at the moment.

    The NTA have said any increases will be part of the wider bus connects project and will be rolled out in conjunction with other 24 routes across the city, so basically nothing will happen until the A spine is launched. Still the frequency in the early AM won't be sufficient. It needs to be every 15 minutes to carry the road at least.

    One glaringly obvious option is to run the E1 through Northwood and on to the airport (permission being given by Northwood estate of course).

    This would link the whole Ballymun Rd to the airport and right across the city without too much of a circular route.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The D4 should be going to the airport anyway as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The E1 and E2 are going to be busy enough as it is serving the Ballymun Corridor.

    I’ve said it before that you’d need another route to serve the airport apart from them because otherwise you’d potentially cause serious loading problems for the service along that corridor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭thomasj


    I meant the D4. The D4 won't be directly serving Beaumont Hospital , that will be the A1



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭thomasj




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,726 ✭✭✭jd


    D4 looks like it will be going through Beaumont Hospital campus, presumably with a stop near the main reception



  • Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭BusGuy


    "The NTA plans to further expand the network, with the inner orbital Route O scheduled for implementation next year and N8 linking Blanchardstown to Dublin Airport to follow in a later phase, the coming months."

    "will be followed by 24-hour Spines E1, and E2, Radial route 19 , Local routes L1, L2, L3 L12, L14, L15, L26, L27 and Express routes X1 and X2, in the coming months.

    Interesting.., the 39A is after the 46A for the butcher's block.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 262 ✭✭DaBluBoi




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,787 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Anyone explain the timetable on N2?

    20:55 ex Heuston scheduled to complete route in 38m Mon-Fri, 42m Sat, 47m Sun.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,506 ✭✭✭VG31


    From looking at Bus Times today, the biggest delay on the N2 towards Clontarf was the Griffith Avenue/Ballymun Road junction. It took 10 minutes to go one stop for much of the day.

    The Swords Road junction actually seemed to be moving fairly quickly.

    https://bustimes.org/services/n2-clontarf-station-heuston-train-stn/vehicles?date=2024-09-30#



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Probably more to do with duty hours than anything else.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 939 ✭✭✭alentejo


    Yes again Kildare Street, Molesworths Street and Merrion Sq West are closed off to traffic due to a possible protest. Yet again the south city is at a complete standstill with bus routes severely impacted.

    At this stage, and with continued protests likely in the future, should a plan not be devised to deal with this? It is a sad reflection that the closure of 3 streets in the centre of Dublin has such a negative impact on public transport.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 368 ✭✭TranslatorPS


    Doubt it, GAI aren't as finicky about exact minutes as DB, nor are they the kind of people to adjust timings to the point of absurd for the sake of a legal duty. I think what happened here is that the weekend timing adjustment bands are set up way too late. They are all reduced to 38' journey time every day, it's just that on Saturdays and Sundays it's far later – and while I can understand Saturdays, Sundays not so much.

    In any case I personally believe that there's going to be an adjustment of timings before the year is over.



  • Registered Users Posts: 35 cantthinkofausername1


    The new 19 bus that's going into service in November kinda reminds me of the former 19a bus that also served St Mobhis Road and Ballymun Road (that the new 19 will also serve), it's interesting that some route numbers are making a comeback after years of being gone, same with the current 74 which serves Rathfarnham, Willbrook and Ballyboden which the former route 74a also served until it was replaced by the 15b in 2011 via Network Direct



  • Registered Users Posts: 67 ✭✭Woah


    https://m.independent.ie/regionals/dublin/dublin-news/busconnects-is-taking-away-identity-of-ballyfermot-says-parish-priest/a1128014770.html

    Are these concerns legitimate? The roundabout being "iconic" is nonsense but turning ballyfernot road by the shops one way does seem like it will turn all the surrounding residential streets into a rat run or is something being done to prevent that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    This went through 3 rounds of consultation and a planning hearing.

    What more do these people expect?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    There was a two month period during which An Bord Pleanála’s decision could be appealed. No such appeals were submitted during this period.

    If they had such big concerns over it why did no-one appeal?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 246 ✭✭danfrancisco83


    Not legitimate concerns IMO. He's playing to his audience, older people in Ballyfermot fearful of change. There was a roundabout years ago just up the road outside Molloys, it was replaced with traffic lights and there is no issue with tailbacks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The radial route numbers rise in anti-clockwise order around the city starting on Amiens Street utilising numbers not currently in use (save for the 37 inexplicably).

    Nothing more complicated than that!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    The most confusing part about the Blanch radials is that very little actually changes on the routes, so why they can't remain 37/38/39 is odd.

    Just swap which routes serve Laurel Lodge/Carpenterstown and Blanch Village/Clonsilla Road, and leave the numbers as is.



  • Registered Users Posts: 35 cantthinkofausername1


    The 37 is actually staying (even the route number) even after BusConnects, just that it would be rerouted to Clonsilla Road instead



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    The route 83 re-routing to cover off the section of St. Agnes Park that lost its bus service with the 17 ceasing is due to take effect from the 20th October. Will mean the 83 will now also serve Ashleaf Shopping Centre.

    https://www.dublinbus.ie/news/revised-routing-on-route83



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    That’s a very positive change.

    It was bizarre how the removal of the link between Sundrive Road and Crumlin Village was overlooked when the orbitals were launched.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I didn't reply to this earlier, but I did want to make a few observations.

    Firstly, it was agreed long ago here by the mods that the term "granny bus" wasn't acceptable - to be honest it's a pretty insulting term for those people who use local community bus routes. Plenty of people, young and old, use bus routes that serve local communities for any number of reasons, and there is no need to patronise them.

    Secondly, the 19 isn't going to be hourly. It's going to be every 20 minutes, and it will be more frequent at peak.

    Thirdly, expecting any major routing changes of the radials going forward such as you're suggesting isn't going to happen at this late stage. The NTA have settled on the routings except for minor changes. Aside from that, the 80 for example has a major student flow from Churchtown to Rathmines, and your idea would cause ructions!

    The numbering of radial routes relates not just to the routing, but also to the frequency integration.

    Radial routes are not integrated with the Spine routes for timetabling purposes, and in general will operate to/from the city centre only rather than along the full core section of a Spine most of which stretch significantly cross-city. The 6 for example, operating hourly, cannot be integrated into the H-Spine schedules where the combined frequency is every 7.5 minutes.

    There is a reason for the numbering and that was explained by Jarrett Walker at the outset.

    Finally I do find it a bit amusing that you're now observing that the 24 is not serving the city centre, given your previous complaints about more buses not serving Church Street! The 24 does actually serve Dame Street & Georges Street, areas where there are numerous hotels.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Lol there's something missing from this but can't put my finger on it.... Shows up under revised 43 times



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The routings are changing though.

    The 34 will serve Laurel Lodge and Carpenterstown, routing via Phibsboro.

    The 35 won't serve Mulhuddart, Ladyswell or Damastown (as per the 38).

    The 37 will no longer serve Laurel Lodge and Carpenterstown, but will serve Blanchardstown Village and Clonsilla Road.

    It makes far more sense to change all of the numbers given the scale of changes, as they are doing everywhere else across the city. I think that keeping the 37 is just asking for trouble, as it is going to cause a lot of confusion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The full timetable is appearing when I click on the link on the website.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Thats strange , if you click on the revised page from the timetable list page, it's bringing up blank/incomplete timetable . Same for the C2 timetable



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    It works perfectly for me on my phone and laptop from both the news page and the timetable list.

    Sounds like it is a problem with your device!



  • Registered Users Posts: 35 cantthinkofausername1


    The reason why the 37 is still gonna be called the 37 is because all the other route numbers from 31-39 have been either used before BusConnects or after BusConnects (since BusConnects uses route numbers that aren't used from the route network before BusConnects rolled out) , maybe they could've renamed the 37 the 30 since that number hasn't been used before BusConnects



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Believe it or not, they could have used the next available number.

    There’s nothing to say that it has to be between 30 and 39.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,896 ✭✭✭thomasj


    Must have been a cache issue on my phone, it was working fine on my laptop



  • Registered Users Posts: 35 cantthinkofausername1


    The next available number then would be 50 since 48 (the only number in the 40s that isn't used before BusConnects) is going to be used for the 122 replacement to Ashington



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    They could have moved them all around by the next available number?

    The 122 replacement didn’t have to be the 48.

    They weren’t tied to one set of numbers for each corridor.

    It was a mistake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,816 ✭✭✭TheChrisD


    >Plenty of people, young and old, use bus routes that serve local communities for any number of reasons, and there is no need to patronise them.

    If I remember, the term came about because of the low-frequency radials that were added in after the first draft new network when many people were livid at the loss of their bus service from right outside their door, and the majority of those complainers skewed towards the older ages.

    For the 19 in particular, it was purely to assuage those in Wadelai Park who weren't bothered walking to the E-spine, or Home Farm Road to either the E or A-spines, and even Balbutcher Lane south that didn't want to walk to North for the E2 (V1 routing).

    >the 19 isn't going to be hourly. It's going to be every 20 minutes, and it will be more frequent at peak.

    Okay that's an area I've missed. The frequency chart on the BC website is still handling the original planned V3 frequencies and hasn't updated with any new plans since then.

    >expecting any major routing changes of the radials going forward such as you're suggesting isn't going to happen at this late stage

    The NTA still could do with looking at the existing rollout so far and what has happened with those routes to make adjustments to the plans as they are. Like how oversubscribed the 60 was when the G-spine rolled out as the G buses were so full and unreliable. If they stick too much to the original plan, then there's no learning from the mistakes and failings of the earlier phases.

    On top of that, merging more radials into the spines will help with passenger recognition. Instead of having to remember "oh it's this spine or this bus or this bus", it's just a single spine. Simplicity was one of the key intentions with the first network draft, before it had to be mucked with following a lot of NIMBY-esque complaints.

    >I do find it a bit amusing that you're now observing that the 24 is not serving the city centre, given your previous complaints about more buses not serving Church Street!

    I simply mentioned that it's lacking suitability as a main traffic Airport bus because it doesn't serve the main city thoroughfare. Tourists arriving in Dublin aren't going to know exactly that unless they've done research. So rather than potentially confusing them with multiple route options, just make sure that there is almost always an A-spine bus there to take them in by increasing its frequency.

    For residents around here — of which I am one — it's not too much different in terms of "which bus goes where and what slowdowns are on the way". The neo-35/ex-38 is still the Auburn Avenue/Phibsborough bus that also serves Corduff. The neo-34/ex-37 is still the Carpenterstown bus that skims the outskirt of the Phoenix Park.

    What I'm suggesting is that the three Blanch radials could stay numbered 37/38/39 if they were updated to remain faithful to the current routing - so that the 37 is the Carptenterstown and Blackhorse bus, the 38 is the Auburn and Corduff bus, and the 39 is the Blanch Village and Clonsilla Road bus.

    The issue is that we seem to have rolled the 30s both in the old routes and the new routes somehow, and the fact that there's so few unused 30s has caused this nonsense. It would be better if the three Blanch radials were 34/35/36, the ex-120 took maybe the 48; and the ex-122 instead became an L route since let's be honest it's hardly a radial as it's so short, so infrequent, only goes to Parnell Square, and there's already precedent with the L91.

    Heck, how the Ashington bus is considered a radial, and yet the L13 Ringsend-Kilternan is considered a local is silly. Both should be the opposite!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,160 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I appreciate that you have your own opinion about the radials, but in my view the bus service is for everyone - be they able bodied, older, younger or those with disabilities and I happen to think that we can discuss the bus service without labelling routes as being for only one of those groups. The term was used frankly as a disparaging way of describing local buses by those who weren't in favour of them.

    I do believe that community bus routes are still an important part of the network for many areas of the city. Yes, they are mainly lower frequency, but they continue to provide a local service for those who need it, young and old, and they often provide a sweeper service for the Spine routes which will do the heavy lifting along the Core Bus Corridors.

    The 19 routing also means that existing users of the 11 or 13 who travel from say Ballymun or Glasnevin North to Lower Drumcondra can continue to do so without a walk or changing buses once or even twice.

    The 74 radial is a southside example that wasn't in the original plan, but which, almost a year after being launched, is doing well in terms of user numbers. It provides a link between the southside orbitals, while also providing a local community service through Kimmage, retaining the linkage provided by the western half of the old 17, maintaining a service to/from the city centre for Whitechurch, and retaining a connection to Dundrum from the old 175 route.

    I do agree totally about the need for a more frequent A Spine service at the Airport. I've been posting about that from the outset.

    Regarding routings, well so far, to be honest, I've not seen any indication from the NTA that they might deviate routings substantially from that final plan published in September 2020, save for relatively minor changes or extensions, such as those published with the updated map in June 2024.

    As far as the numbering goes, the L13 is presumably so numbered as it doesn't go beyond Ringsend Garage into the city centre, unlike Parnell Square, where the 48 will terminate, which definitely is in the city centre.

    I rather suspect that the L91 won't happen, as the 53a which it directly replaces has never resumed since Covid.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    In Heuston today and the bus stops out front are fairly busy for a Saturday morning. The S2, N2, 145 and the 782 all seem to depart around the same time. Will be interesting to see how that fares once the O route starts running as well!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 ✭✭TonyK45


    Agree - also provides a link from Crumlin Village to Rathmines and Ranelagh again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 ✭✭TonyK45


    It's not the map - it's the software you are using. Whatever PDF reader that is set as your default is the problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,506 ✭✭✭VG31


    I was quoting @loyatemu there. It loads fine for me in Adobe Acrobat.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 114 ✭✭halfpastneverr


    New route 720 appearing on bustimes.

    https://bustimes.org/services/720-watling-street-heuston-station



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