BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

MJohnston

spoonerhead wrote: »

I agree, the route is all over the place. I get on at Sundrive road and get off at the last stop in Blackrock

Well you'll have a number of superior options thanks to BusConnects:

1. Get on the S2 (15 minute frequency at peak, 20/25 off peak) at Sundrive Road, transfer to DART at Sandymount, take DART to Blackrock.
2. Get on S2 at Sundrive Road, transfer to bus number 7 (8 minute frequency at peak, 10 minute frequency off-peak) in Ballsbridge, take 7 to Blackrock.
3. Walk to Kimmage Road, take the S4 orbital (10 minute frequency) to UCD, transfer to the S6/7 (15 minute frequency) to Blackrock.
4. Get on the F1/2 (10 minute peak, 15 off peak) at Sundrive Road, transfer to S4 orbital at Kimmage Road, transfer at UCD to the S6/7 for Blackrock.

In all of the above cases, you will pay the exact same fare, and it will be the same fare whether you make zero transfers or 100 transfers.

When you board the first bus, you will tag-on with your Leap card, and be charged that single flat-rate fare. When you tag-on with the next bus or DART, there will be no further charge. This will continue to be true until it has been more than 90 minutes since your first tag-on, at which point a second flat-rate fare will be charged (lasting another 90 minutes).


Another thing I'll point out, currently your 17 bus journey probably takes you about 1 hour during peak hours. Under BusConnects, the S2 would probably take about 30 minutes to get you to Sandymount DART, and then it's about 6 minutes from there to Blackrock. Best case scenario, you could be almost halving your journey times.


Journey times aren't necessarily an aim of BusConnects, but when you simplify the network and add more radial/orbital routes that don't meander like the 17, you're going to improve the lives of people like this who have to take very radial journeys.

Qrt

Bray Head wrote: »

In one of the tweets JW makes the point that no one has ever successfully mapped the current network because it is so complex!

Not until they started this project.

Sam Russell

I think the 90 minute fare is a winner for the project. It makes changing buses so much simpler, plus it makes the Leap Card the only ticket in town.

No driver involvement, and faster ticket validators will mean getting on the bus will be quicker.

Just a small point, but if I get on the bus with 89 mins since I first validated, will I be OK? Surely, If I have a 20 min journey to go, I will need to be on the bus less than 70 mins since first validating. How will that work?

ED E

Yep, the reader will still write an event to the card just no charge would be applied.

cgcsb

You only have to do your last validation within 90 mins from your first. So you could be going around Dublin for longer than 90 mins but you just need the last leg of your journey to start within that time. In theory you could complete return journeys for short trips and only get charged one fare.

Dardania

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the 90 minute fare is a winner for the project.  It makes changing buses so much simpler, plus it makes the Leap Card the only ticket in town.

No driver involvement, and faster ticket validators will mean getting on the bus will be quicker.

Just a small point, but if I get on the bus with 89 mins since I first validated, will I be OK?  Surely, If I have a 20 min journey to go, I will need to be on the bus less than 70 mins since first validating.  How will that work?

Based on my experience in another European capital, if you get on and tag on at 89 minutes, you can travel to the end of the buses route and be okay. It's about when you start the journey, not how long the journey total takes.
What NTA have in mind, I don't know. But imagine the kick back if your connecting bus was delayed, and you had to pay for a new fare as a result of DB or Go-Aheads delay

MJohnston

There's a potential for the 90 minute fare to be quite handy for some - take a short trip to the shops, pick up a couple of items, and then hop back on the return bus before that 90 minutes expire. Single payment for a round trip!

Actually, and maybe this is a question for the Leap card thread, but what's the rules on this on the Luas - I frequently get on the Luas outside my office, take it down to Dawson or O'Connell, then I'm either picking up lunch to go or doing some shopping returns, and I know I will take only about 10 minutes, so I don't tag off. Get back on the Luas, and then tag off back at my office again. Obviously ticket inspectors will see everything in order, but is this allowed?

devnull

KD345 wrote: »

Do we know the reason for excluding commuter rail passengers from the new 90 minute fare structure? It seems odd when they are encouraging passengers to use multiple modes to complete journeys. When you consider places like Maynooth, Broombridge and Clonsilla, and changing to Luas or bus to continue your journey but being separate from the fare cap, it throws another obstacle into the Bus Connects project.

I agree it throws an obstacle at things in theory when looking at it simplistically, but there are practical issues with funding and revenue that make it not straightforward.

The problem is if they include commuter rail, in some cases that would involve a massive discount from what a passenger is paying for a journey that includes commuter rail at the moment.

If you take a long journey in a short hop zone now the revenue goes to IE. If you take a journey in the short hop zone going forward and use a bus, not only will the fare be less than it is now, IE will only be getting a cut of it rather than all.

The problem is that if they bring in a 90 minute all modes ticket that includes commuter rail, that is going to obviously have to be priced higher than one that doesn't include commuter rail because of what I'm talking about above.

Then you have the issue of does including commuter rail into such 90 minute ticket, then push the price up to the point that everyone else who doesn't use commuter rail would find it unattractive?

The other alternative of course is providing IE, with a lot more subsidy to cover their losses from this new system.

MJohnston

devnull wrote: »

I agree it throws an obstacle at things in theory when looking at it simplistically, but there are practical issues with funding and revenue that make it not straightforward.

The problem is if they include commuter rail, in some cases that would involve a massive discount from what a passenger is paying for a journey that includes commuter rail at the moment.

If you take a long journey in a short hop zone now the revenue goes to IE. If you take a journey in the short hop zone going forward and use a bus, not only will the fare be less than it is now, IE will only be getting a cut of it rather than all.

The problem is that if they bring in a 90 minute all modes ticket that includes commuter rail, that is going to obviously have to be priced higher than one that doesn't include commuter rail because of what I'm talking about above.

Then you have the issue of does including commuter rail into such 90 minute ticket, then push the price up to the point that everyone else who doesn't use commuter rail would find it unattractive?

Far as I can tell, here are the furthest stations on the short-hop network that cost the same as the most expensive DART fare - 4.75:

• Kilcoole - 4.75
• Sallins & Naas - 3.72
• Kilcock - 4.75
• M3 Parkway - 3.00
• Balbriggan - 4.75
• Howth - 2.50

Even if you're more conservative and say that Connolly-Bray should be a more realistic target fare - 3.00 - you're still left with this network:

• Hazelhatch - 2.50
• Leixlip Louisa Bridge - 3.00
• M3 Paykway - 3.00
• Rush and Lusk - 3.00
• Howth - 2.50

The distances involved are pretty similar too. Perhaps these stations could be re-designated as part of some new Dublin Area zone that works with the 90 minute flat-fare?


Otherwise, the logic behind it becomes really strained, and it's purely a money-making problem. Not to mention the fact that a lot of those stations are due to become DART at some point relatively soon, and presumably the 90 minute fare would be extended to them then anyway.

r93kaey5p2izun

It just makes no sense that someone can have one flat fare for taking a local bus then getting the Dart Bray to Howth but someone else would pay twice for Hazelhatch to Heuston then Luas to Abbey Street.

Bray Head

Commuter rail is generally a faster and more comfortable journey than bus.

Ergo, it should still command a premium.

MJohnston

Bray Head wrote: »

Commuter rail is generally a faster and more comfortable journey than bus.

Ergo, it should still command a premium.

Except you can say the exact same thing about both Luas and DART, and they won't command a premium.

devnull

Anaya Angry Meatloaf wrote: »

It just makes no sense that someone can have one flat fare for taking a local bus then getting the Dart Bray to Howth but someone else would pay twice for Hazelhatch to Heuston then Luas to Abbey Street.

Perhaps it makes no sense on the surface.

But even including the DART in the 90 minute ticket will cost IE a lot of revenue they currently get.

How much do you reckon this ticket ticket should cost? Because however much that is if someone is using two modes Irish rail will onlyGet half of it where's with Leap 90 they only lose 50c.

markpb

MJohnston wrote: »

Actually, and maybe this is a question for the Leap card thread, but what's the rules on this on the Luas - I frequently get on the Luas outside my office, take it down to Dawson or O'Connell, then I'm either picking up lunch to go or doing some shopping returns, and I know I will take only about 10 minutes, so I don't tag off. Get back on the Luas, and then tag off back at my office again. Obviously ticket inspectors will see everything in order, but is this allowed?

You'd be fined because you didn't tag off between journeys. If you weren't fined, the exit validator would charge you a 1 zone trip because it didn't know where you went in between.

CatInABox

I suppose it depends on how Irish Rail, GoAhead and Dublin Bus get paid post ticketing upgrade. Does the money going to them come from their passengers, or does it come from the NTA?

If it's coming from the NTA, then surely it's a flat rate of services/targets met, etc. Then whether or not there's a drop in revenue isn't a problem for Irish Rail, it's a problem for the NTA.

MJohnston

markpb wrote: »

You'd be fined because you didn't tag off between journeys. If you weren't fined, the exit validator would charge you a 1 zone trip because it didn't know where you went in between.

Conversely, does that mean (and I know this is unlikely) that someone who gets on the Luas at SSG, takes it north around the Parnell loop, and back down towards Sandyford - they could be fined if checked between Parnell and SSG?

L1011

The Celbridge, Confey and to a lesser extent Maynooth routes are dependant on people using rail either instead of buses or connecting to rail after one bus. They need to be included in the fare in an acceptable manner or else that won't happen

Spanish Eyes

L1011 wrote: »

The Celbridge, Confey and to a lesser extent Maynooth routes are dependant on people using rail either instead of buses or connecting to rail after one bus. They need to be included in the fare in an acceptable manner or else that won't happen

My feeling on this is, if passengers are being steered towards commuter rail in places like you mention, and there are many more too, then these places SHOULD be on the 90 minute transfer scheme.

But how long is a piece of string?

How far out do you go? And so on.

Planning in this country is just perfect isn't it?

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Is there map of new routes available or still miles away from that?

MJohnston

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Is there map of new routes available or still miles away from that?

You mean other than the proposed routes map? It's on page 78 of this large PDF.

Sam Russell

LXFlyer wrote: »

I meant look at the individual route timetables.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

My feeling on this is, if passengers are being steered towards commuter rail in places like you mention, and there are many more too, then these places SHOULD be on the 90 minute transfer scheme.

But how long is a piece of string?

How far out do you go? And so on.

Planning in this country is just perfect isn't it?

The commuter could be an add on - say €1 extra, plus the 90 min fare. The reverse of the City Centre fare.

Dardania

Sam Russell wrote: »

LXFlyer wrote: »

I meant look at the individual route timetables.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

My feeling on this is, if passengers are being steered towards commuter rail in places like you mention, and there are many more too, then these places SHOULD be on the 90 minute transfer scheme.

But how long is a piece of string?

How far out do you go? And so on.

Planning in this country is just perfect isn't it?

The commuter could be an add on - say €1 extra, plus the 90 min fare. The reverse of the City Centre fare.

Exactly the right way to solve it. Greater service delivered, and priced appropriately.

Although an earlier poster mentioned that there might be some IT difficulties with achieving this with current leap setup, however it is surely possible to do if the ambition is there.

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

The Celbridge, Confey and to a lesser extent Maynooth routes are dependant on people using rail either instead of buses or connecting to rail after one bus. They need to be included in the fare in an acceptable manner or else that won't happen

Sure, in theory I totally agree with you, I just don't see how the finances are going to work out without Irish Rail needing a substantial uplift in subsidy as they out of anyone, will lose a huge amount of revenue from this ticketing model, which could well run into 8 figures when you take it into account.

Or to put it rather bluntly, for a journey from Kilcoole, if the 90 minute transfer was to be charged at €3 and the passenger then went to use another mode, Irsih Rail may get as little as €1.50 for a journey that they currently would get about €4 for if used with another mode.

That's a huge loss in revenue. Unless the NTA increase the flat fare beyond €3, which would then penalise everyone who isn't living in the outer commuter zone, they would have to probably give Irish Rail a 8 figure subsidy increase.

This is why they've not done it yet I would say, because to have an inclusive ticket, means that someone somewhere has to take a revenue hit, and the operator with the highest fares and further out, will be the one that suffers the most from this.

As I said, Irish Rail currently ask for €4.75 for some of these journeys for a single if used on it's own. if we go with a flat fare of €3 they may end up with less than a third of that for the same journey, which would put them up s**t creek financially very quickly unless the NTA gave them a hefty increase in subsidy.

The only alternative is to go to a 90 minute fare of something like €4 and even then Irish Rail are going to have to take a fairly significant revenue hit still and you've probably just pushed everyone not using commuter trains back into their cars by charging such a rate.

Compromise may well be to have an inner commuter and outer commuter and include the former but not the later.

L1011

If they want to preserve any idea of distance banding, it'll have to be done from day 1 as including DART and not commuter rail when Maynooth, M3 Parkway Hazelhatch and eventually Drogheda are going to DART in time would extend it even further than planned

LeinsterDub

https://twitter.com/i/status/1024344231014330374

A other great series of posts by Jarett

devnull

Kinda highlights the current system
https://twitter.com/humantransit/status/1024347614035116032

Sam Russell

devnull wrote: »

Sure, in theory I totally agree with you, I just don't see how the finances are going to work out without Irish Rail needing a substantial uplift in subsidy as they out of anyone, will lose a huge amount of revenue from this ticketing model, which could well run into 8 figures when you take it into account.

That's a huge loss in revenue. Unless the NTA increase the flat fare beyond €3, which would then penalise everyone who isn't living in the outer commuter zone, they would have to probably give Irish Rail a 8 figure subsidy increase.

If BusConnects is a huge success, with the new routes heaving with new PT customers availing of the new 90 min ticket, then revenue would increase. If IR get more customers, then they will have more revenue. The 10 min Dart will attract more customers, and the additional connectivity will also add more customers. Extra P&R will add customers.

All those extra customers that leave their cars outside the M50 will allow all those rapid corridors to have the buses going a bit rapid, like they should.

Look how low cost air travel came about because low cost airlines offered low fares, and suddenly air travel became low cost.

If the Darts that are currently quite empty off peak were nearly full, the fare box would be bulging for no extra cost.

Dardania

Sam Russell wrote: »

devnull wrote: »

Sure, in theory I totally agree with you, I just don't see how the finances are going to work out without Irish Rail needing a substantial uplift in subsidy as they out of anyone, will lose a huge amount of revenue from this ticketing model, which could well run into 8 figures when you take it into account.

That's a huge loss in revenue. Unless the NTA increase the flat fare beyond €3, which would then penalise everyone who isn't living in the outer commuter zone, they would have to probably give Irish Rail a 8 figure subsidy increase.

If BusConnects is a huge success, with the new routes heaving with new PT customers availing of the new 90 min ticket, then revenue would increase. If IR get more customers, then they will have more revenue. The 10 min Dart will attract more customers, and the additional connectivity will also add more customers. Extra P&R will add customers.

All those extra customers that leave their cars outside the M50 will allow all those rapid corridors to have the buses going a bit rapid, like they should.

Look how low cost air travel came about because low cost airlines offered low fares, and suddenly air travel became low cost.

If the Darts that are currently quite empty off peak were nearly full, the fare box would be bulging for no extra cost.

While that is true, these Irish rail routes most likely subsidise the rest of the network. Which runs at a loss overall. So if there are additional patrons, great - Irish Rail would need the extra revenue to just break even considering the entire network.

devnull

Sam Russell wrote: »

If BusConnects is a huge success, with the new routes heaving with new PT customers availing of the new 90 min ticket, then revenue would increase. If IR get more customers, then they will have more revenue.

It's rare for me to stick up for Irish Rail, but the problem is that for a €3 flat fare, Irish Rail for these commuter towns especially, could end up seeing their revenue cut in at least half to the point where they could be getting no more than £1.50 per passenger for journeys of 50km or more whereas they are getting around treble that now.

There would have to be a massive increase in passenger numbers, you're talking probably mid two digits in order to wipe out the lost revenue and there simply isn't that much capacity left in the system and to provide more capacity you add more costs and you'll be left with the same problem.

You have to remember that a flat fare means revenue is split. Revenue is split with LEAP 90 now, but it's not capped at €3 and each operator is only losing 50c rather than losing what could be the bulk of their revenue.

If the Darts that are currently quite empty off peak were nearly full, the fare box would be bulging for no extra cost.

That's great, all we have to do now is find tens of thousands of passengers who will not travel at peak time and will only travel at off-peak times and tell them if they travel at peak bad things will happen to them so they better not do it.

There is not that kind of demand for off-peak travel, that is why it is off-peak and not peak. You can look at all your simplistic theories in any way you like, but the simple fact is that if we go to a €3 fare for instance, for passengers who use multipile modes, Irish Rail could lose up to two thirds of the revenue they get for said passengers today.

It is not sensible that we should be paying Irish Rail just €1.50 to be carrying passengers what could be distances of approx 50km and the idea that we can just add more passengers to the mix to make it up is fanciful to say the least, because that in itself adds more costs and there just isn't the capacity to add the number of passengers that would be needed to even get close to making it revenue neutral to what there is now.

You need to look at this from an operational, revenue and financial point of view. If the NTA wants to include the commuter lines in a €3 fare it needs to increase the subsidy by a decent amount or take the revenue risk itself.

AlekSmart

Dardania wrote: »

While that is true, these Irish rail routes most likely subsidise the rest of the network. Which runs at a loss overall. So if there are additional patrons, great - Irish Rail would need the extra revenue to just break even considering the entire network.

Any and all concerns about the Irish Rail situation has to be considered in the light of their 10 year NTA contract expiring in 2019...which coincidentally is when Busconnects gets into it's stride.

Of course 2019 is also the year Bus Atha Cliath's PSC contract is up for renewal,but this could all just be a massive coincidence

There is a lot of Politics at play here,and no better man than Dermot O Leary to recognise an opportunity to make considerable headway in establishing a presence on the Irish political stage.....the only fly in the ointment could be if Jarrett Walker is persuaded to run for President :eek: