BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

LeinsterDub · 31-07-2018 7:57am

Dardania wrote: »

it's weird - surely if BusConnects is successful, it'll drive demand for drivers, and thereby more union members for the NBRU?

What is their actual problem?

Change. Any and all change.

Dardania · 31-07-2018 8:01am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

it's weird - surely if BusConnects is successful, it'll drive demand for drivers, and thereby more union members for the NBRU?

What is their actual problem?

Change. Any and all change.

I fear you're right, but there has to be more to it - do they feel slighted for not being involved earlier in the process as special advisers or stakeholders maybe?

SG317 · 31-07-2018 8:04am

People keep praising Jarret about the job he is doing on Twitter. However, I really don't think he has done a great job. Yes Jarret's tweets get more likes, but a lot of the Twitter feed on the @BusConnects is pro Bus Connects, who are answering and/or debating with a lot of the people who would be against it or have reservations about the plan. There aren't a lot of anti-Bus Connects people apart from the NBRU on Twitter who are constantly on the feed, however there are quite a few Pro Bus Connects people that are. Also Jarret Walker has 23.7k followers, so not everyone who likes his tweets will be effected by Bus Connects.

People are forgetting that apart from the already Pro Bus Connects people he isn't really convincing anyone else. There seems to be a notion amongst some that there are so many anti Bus Connects on Twitter but there really aren't. Most are just raising their concerns, in some cases local concerns. Some of the Pro Bus Connects however are constantly replying and trying to promote the plan.

Jarret Walker's replies are basically either of the following.
-Read the report. Eventhough in some cases they actually have read it.
-Quote a statistic.
-Sacrafices have to be made.
Apart from that he hasn't really answered any of the public's questions. He mainly responds to the NBRU because he knows they could have a strong influence on the plan. However, saying someone ia desperate to stop a plan from going through is not a good sales pitch. Saying that people who oppose the whole plan of Bus Connects oppose freedom is not a good sales pitch. His attitude is entitled and as if he is doing is a favour we should all be grateful for.

My point is that Jarret Walker is not really doing a good sales pitch, if he was he wouldn't be on the defensive and having to continously mention the opposition. Doesn't help when the NTA is not engaging on Twitter. The only person who is actually answering the public's questions from people involved in the design is Daniel Costantino. If they really want to sell the plan the NTA and Jarret Walker will have to start to really answer the public's questions, else a lot of questions will be un answered, which will lead in people having more concerns about the plan.

Also the livery issue is being raised a lot on Twitter lately, however no reply regarding it from the NTA. Although that really isn't a surprise. The NTA basically had to admit that they did not properly consult the Public regarding the livery. As the relevant disability groups were not consulted when the livery was created. Quite frankly it is unacceptable that a proper public consultation wasn't carried out regarding the liveries.

devnull · 31-07-2018 8:16am

Dardania wrote: »

I fear you're right, but there has to be more to it - do they feel slighted for not being involved earlier in the process as special advisers or stakeholders maybe?

Direct City Services as they like to focus on keeping are only thing their members will operate after Go Ahead start. Probably want to minimise loss of radials for that reason.

Also I see someone else has brought up the point of that if a route is tore up the rosters would have to change and drivers to lose their long held marked in schedules.

Note how SIPTU who represent drivers in both companies and both radial and orbital routes are very quiet to further support what I say above.

LeinsterDub · 31-07-2018 8:23am

Dardania wrote: »

I fear you're right, but there has to be more to it - do they feel slighted for not being involved earlier in the process as special advisers or stakeholders maybe?

Did you see the tweet I posted from DOL a few posts back? That's the attitude you've to deal with.

spoonerhead · 31-07-2018 8:25am

MJohnston wrote: »

Where do you get the 17 from and to? It's quite a winding route, so it's hard to guess

I agree, the route is all over the place. I get on at Sundrive road and get off at the last stop in Blackrock

buffalo · 31-07-2018 8:29am

On the anecdotal front, I was around at my parents at the weekend. They had been told - and believed - that they were losing both their local bus routes, and didn't know how far they'd have to go to get a new bus. My father's concern was that there was no new bus going down the local main road to where he meets his friends at the weekend.

I took out the map of the proposed network and showed them where the two new replacement routes were identical at this end, though took different routes into town. And there's the F3 bus, going down the local main road, same as the old route.

I feel like there's an onus on people who understand the network to raise the topic and inform people where lies are being peddled.

CatInABox · 31-07-2018 8:42am

Patww79 wrote: »

I was coming home from Dublin on Saturday night on the last bus and, something I hadn't considered, is that there's no way I want to be disembarking a bus at that hour of the night at Blanchardstown shopping centre to wait for another one. Whatever about the inconvenience at busy daylight times but that's not a good situation to be in.

Why?

It'll be a well lit interchange, if you don't want to get off there, then most of Dublin will be a no go for you after dark.

L1011 · 31-07-2018 8:52am

Dardania wrote: »

it's weird - surely if BusConnects is successful, it'll drive demand for drivers, and thereby more union members for the NBRU?

What is their actual problem?

It'll require far fewer extra drivers than providing the same level of service on the current incoherent system would

The efficiency in vehicle and driver use that would result from this is enough to spook any union, particularly one that has spent so much of its funds on strike pay in recent years

Dardania · 31-07-2018 9:00am

Patww79 wrote: »

CatInABox wrote: »

Why?

It'll be a well lit interchange, if you don't want to get off there, then most of Dublin will be a no go for you after dark.

Most of Dublin is a no go at the best of times but sometimes you need to go there unfortunately. It still doesn't change the fact that people have to get off a bus in a dangerous area late at night when there was no need to before.

That was part of my submission to the consultation also - people will feel a loss of security with interchanging that will need to be relieved. Super lighting, CCTV etc. It's a very valid concern to have.

CatInABox · 31-07-2018 9:01am

Patww79 wrote: »

Most of Dublin is a no go at the best of times but sometimes you need to go there unfortunately. It still doesn't change the fact that people have to get off a bus in a dangerous area late at night when there was no need to before.

No, it's not. Dublin is almost totally safe.

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 9:03am

KD345 wrote: »

Do we know the reason for excluding commuter rail passengers from the new 90 minute fare structure? It seems odd when they are encouraging passengers to use multiple modes to complete journeys. When you consider places like Maynooth, Broombridge and Clonsilla, and changing to Luas or bus to continue your journey but being separate from the fare cap, it throws another obstacle into the Bus Connects project.

A lot of people are asking Transport For Ireland for more information on Twitter following their tweet promoting the 90 minute fare, but they’re not offering any clarity on questions being asked.

I think it's a case of IÉ throwing the toys out of the pram on the ticketing issue. They still have staff that actually sell tickets full time remember.

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 9:05am

spoonerhead wrote: »

I recently got a full time job on the route of the 17 bus, which I’m now using 10-12 times per week. Should I stay in this employment when this bus is taken off the roads, I’ll probably up up paying double for my weekly transport.

Now to get to my point, I could be in the minority who happen to depend on this route. But if my €5:10 fares per day go up would I not be better off getting a car?

Your fare will either stay the same of go down. Look at the map to see your new bus route

Dardania · 31-07-2018 9:06am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

I fear you're right, but there has to be more to it - do they feel slighted for not being involved earlier in the process as special advisers or stakeholders maybe?

Did you see the tweet I posted from DOL a few posts back? That's the attitude you've to deal with.

The willfull ignorance one where they didn't read chapter 6. Yeah...it's disappointing but not surprising. The little back handed apology when called out on it was pathetic.
The sooner they come out with stating what their actual issue is (like devnull and L1011 are suggesting) the better, but it probably suits their agenda to spread FUD now.
Imagine in other countries, unions are seen as good things by the majority, promoting stability etc.

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 9:08am

Dardania wrote: »

it's weird - surely if BusConnects is successful, it'll drive demand for drivers, and thereby more union members for the NBRU?

What is their actual problem?

Change will be used as a stick in the next fight for a pay rise. The bus driver has to be the best paid person on the bus at all times you see.

Dardania · 31-07-2018 9:09am

cgcsb wrote: »

KD345 wrote: »

Do we know the reason for excluding commuter rail passengers from the new 90 minute fare structure? It seems odd when they are encouraging passengers to use multiple modes to complete journeys. When you consider places like Maynooth, Broombridge and Clonsilla, and changing to Luas or bus to continue your journey but being separate from the fare cap, it throws another obstacle into the Bus Connects project.

A lot of people are asking Transport For Ireland for more information on Twitter following their tweet promoting the 90 minute fare, but they’re not offering any clarity on questions being asked.

I think it's a case of IÉ throwing the toys out of the pram on the ticketing issue. They still have staff that actually sell tickets full time remember.

Whatever about the price, there should still be an interchange possibility.
The fact of the matter is that it must be a different cost to provide services to people over a long distance compared to those closer to the city. I believe the Irish rail commuters should be offered an interchange ticket, at the appropriate price to cover the cost.

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 9:12am

Patww79 wrote: »

It still doesn't change the fact that people have to get off a bus in a dangerous area late at night when there was no need to before.

:rolleyes:

LeinsterDub · 31-07-2018 9:27am

Dardania wrote: »

The willfull ignorance one where they didn't read chapter 6. Yeah...it's disappointing but not surprising. The little back handed apology when called out on it was pathetic.
The sooner they come out with stating what their actual issue is (like devnull and L1011 are suggesting) the better, but it probably suits their agenda to spread FUD now.
Imagine in other countries, unions are seen as good things by the majority, promoting stability etc.

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1022520095946539008

It was this tweet I was referring too. It was much further back than I expected

Qrt · 31-07-2018 9:30am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://twitter.com/DermotLeary/status/1022520095946539008[

It was this tweet I was referring too. It was much further back than I expected

I don't really remember the pre-network direct routes but 180??? F****** hell!

antoinolachtnai · 31-07-2018 9:32am

Dardania wrote: »

Whatever about the price, there should still be an interchange possibility.
The fact of the matter is that it must be a different cost to provide services to people over a long distance compared to those closer to the city. I believe the Irish rail commuters should be offered an interchange ticket, at the appropriate price to cover the cost.

I imagine the problem might be with the structure of the cap which the Leap allows. It is sort of a zonal cap that is required to do what you are describing. As I remember the discussions from eight years ago, the card doesn’t really support it. (There is a way to do it by giving credit retrospectively but it is kind of awkward.)

LeinsterDub · 31-07-2018 9:44am

Qrt wrote: »

I don't really remember the pre-network direct routes but 180??? F****** hell!

Bus direct axed a lot of lettered routes if I recall such as the the 11A and the 13 A

LeinsterDub · 31-07-2018 9:47am

Patww79 wrote: »

You're asking a lot of people to trust in that opinion of yours. Just because you feel safe in all areas doesn't mean everyone will and it's a big thing to ask people to do.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/dublin-is-18th-safest-city-1.350717

cgcsb · 31-07-2018 9:54am

Patww79 wrote: »

You're asking a lot of people to trust in that opinion of yours. Just because you feel safe in all areas doesn't mean everyone will and it's a big thing to ask people to do.

Just drive in an armored car so and live in a gated community. Honestly it's not J0burg

Dardania · 31-07-2018 9:57am

Patww79 wrote: »

CatInABox wrote: »

No, it's not. Dublin is almost totally safe.

You're asking a lot of people to trust in that opinion of yours. Just because you feel safe in all areas doesn't mean everyone will and it's a big thing to ask people to do.

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Patww79 wrote: »

You're asking a lot of people to trust in that opinion of yours. Just because you feel safe in all areas doesn't mean everyone will and it's a big thing to ask people to do.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/dublin-is-18th-safest-city-1.350717

It's the perception of not being safe (or rather, the fear of being unsafe) that will cause people to hesitate to interchange, regardless of whether they are actually unsafe or not.

LeinsterDub · 31-07-2018 10:04am

Dardania wrote: »

It's the perception of not being safe (or rather, the fear of being unsafe) that will cause people to hesitate to interchange, regardless of whether they are actually unsafe or not.

Don't forget the fear of Zombies too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zopCDSK69gs

Dardania · 31-07-2018 10:21am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Dardania wrote: »

It's the perception of not being safe (or rather, the fear of being unsafe) that will cause people to hesitate to interchange, regardless of whether they are actually unsafe or not.

Don't forget the fear of Zombies too
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zopCDSK69gs

He explains it well! But nevertheless, it's a valid concern to some (even if it's practically baseless). Could merit introducing the revised network in summer (so lots of sunshine) and provision of security staff at the prominent interchanges for a few months until travellers gain confidence, and see how safe it really is.

Bray Head · 31-07-2018 10:29am

In one of the tweets JW makes the point that no one has ever successfully mapped the current network because it is so complex!

Podge_irl · 31-07-2018 11:04am

Dardania wrote: »

He explains it well! But nevertheless, it's a valid concern to some (even if it's practically baseless). Could merit introducing the revised network in summer (so lots of sunshine) and provision of security staff at the prominent interchanges for a few months until travellers gain confidence, and see how safe it really is.

I would say it is a "real" concern rather than a "valid" one, if that is not overly semantic. Bringing in the program in the summer is a good idea but providing security seems a bit like overkill.

Stephen15 · 31-07-2018 11:30am

Dardania wrote: »

That was part of my submission to the consultation also - people will feel a loss of security with interchanging that will need to be relieved. Super lighting, CCTV etc. It's a very valid concern to have.

Another thing they should consider for certain interchanges would be Luas style security

MJohnston · 31-07-2018 12:46pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

hardly surprising tbh. I bet it's the worst reaction he's had anywhere.

No, read the post again:

he replied saying it was worse in some American cities (Houston & Richmond in particular)

Worse in not worse than. In other words, Dublin isn't the worst reaction he's seen.

BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Comments