BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

ITV2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120436927#Comment_120436927

yes they do.

whosedaddy?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120437163#Comment_120437163

NTA responded to my email about E-Spine timelines...

They currently estimate Q2 2024 , depending on the availability of key resources (like drivers)

So probably even later than that.. works for me.

Citrus_8

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120449676#Comment_120449676

They should better provide a more pesimistic/realistic estimate rather than this over-optimistic one. They will again end up extending it and looking like incompetent morons, if it still isn't enough for them to look like. I would have better told a much later date. And if things go okay, they could easily shift it to an earlier day and surprise people and show that they are capable to deliver sooner rather than later. At first I was very pro-NTA, but the more I see how they mnage things around here, they more I lose my respect to them.

tnegun

The was another GAI bus doing route familiarization for the W61 in Maynooth today. It was parked up at the terminus at the education campus at Moyglare Hall. I stopped and had a quick word with the drivers and as far as they know the route is scheduled to start on the 28th May so things are definitely moving in the right direction. They didn't know what the timetable would be like however had it been published/suggested anywhere?

Reversal

Also spotted them on the W62 route yesterday afternoon. Must have navigated the impossible bridge so :D

LXFlyer

The proposed frequencies are on the BusConnects website at the bottom of this page:

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/new-dublin-area-bus-network/

dfx-

Given the delayed timetable for the next portions of this and the huge demand increase since the changes were devised, is there going to be any consideration to the change in demand?

I say this thinking of the standing room only 9pm 68 I was on on Thursday. The regular standing room only 68...that would be no more...

A single decker running to/from the Red Cow might have been appealing since the first attempt to do it in 2010 or even 2019 or whenever...but not so much now.

VonLuck

I always struggle to find the information I'm looking for when it comes to BusConnects, but does anyone know when the orbital routes (particularly Route O) will be up and running? Am I right in saying that the N4 and N6 are operational?

I don't recall any infrastructure works being mentioned to the orbitals so in theory could all of these operate immediately, assuming they can find enough bus drivers?

bk

Yes the N4 and N6 are operating and the N4 at least is a big success.

No infrastructure needed to start them, just drivers as you say, which is definitely is a problem at the moment.

Well the O route needs charging infrastructure in the depots used, as it will use EV busses. Long term there is plans to improve the infrastructure of the orbital routes, to move bus stops, etc to better align with the core routes, etc., but not needed to get started.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492467#Comment_120492467

There is no official date but it's unlikely to be before 2024 now.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492467#Comment_120492467

Everything is now dependent on finding drivers.

Given that Dublin Bus are still suffering a driver shortage, with cancellations and curtailments still happening every day, and with the Dublin Bus element of the southern orbitals (the S2 & L25) requiring approximately 50 completely new drivers between them, I’m not holding my breath for anything happening soon with the O - it’s after them.

The routes will happen when they and the existing network can be staffed. That’s the bottom line.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492656#Comment_120492656

The N4 is certainly a positive addition to the network, but I would make the point that the frequency of both the N4 and N6 was cut from every 10 minutes to every 12 minutes at the start of February.

That’s one bus fewer than previously every hour in each direction on both routes at peak times and off-peak during the day, so maybe not quite such a “big success”, but rather a positive addition to the network.

VonLuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492656#Comment_120492656

Is it strictly an EV bus route? Can it not operate in the interim with standard buses? That route would provide a huge amount of connectivity around the city.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492751#Comment_120492751

That seems crazy if the only limitation is bus drivers, unless they are strictly waiting on EV charging infrastructure as bk suggested.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492872#Comment_120492872

Who do you think will drive them? The O will require another large increase in drivers as it is a totally new route.

There are no drivers available currently to operate the route - they don't even have enough to operate the existing services despite the ongoing recruitment campaign. It's taking far longer than Dublin Bus thought. They originally forecast having sufficient staff to cover the existing network by the end of Q1, and that certainly has not been achieved.

VonLuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492894#Comment_120492894

What I mean is that the overall situation seems crazy if the limitation is bus drivers. The thought that there's a new bus service that would greatly improve public transport, and is ready and waiting to go ahead without any infrastructure upgrades required but is prevented by the fact that no one wants to drive the buses!

I understand that a glut of bus drivers are needed, it's just hard to believe we're at this point.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493035#Comment_120493035

Well to be fair there's a general shortage of labour across many sectors right now, not just bus drivers. It's a real problem for companies. It's not just in Ireland either.

The reality is that a sizeable part of the workforce left, after covid through early retirement or immigrants returning to their home countries, and replacing that hole in the workforce is proving really difficult. Add to that the ongoing housing crisis, especially in Dublin and you have a perfect storm.

This has been a problem since this time last year, and has received a lot of publicity, so I'm kinda surprised that you don't seem aware of the general contraction of the workforce, and it certainly looks like it is going to take some time to resolve.

The NTA tried implementing the N4 & N6 last year along with the G-Spine, but that caused massive problems on other routes, because they were robbing drivers for those services from the existing network.

They committed at the Oireachtas Transport Committee hearing into the issue in December to not implement any further changes until the operating companies had sufficient staff in place to operate them and maintain existing services.

I really wouldn't get your expectations up. They are trying to recruit staff, but it's going to take time.

trashcan

Not a bus connects issue, but had a very annoying experience this morning on the G1. It pulled up to the stop while I was on the far side of the road. I got across to it and it hadn’t begun to move off. There was a girl (not getting the bus) who was at the doors as I approached. She signalled for the driver to open the doors again, which he did. Then he saw me as I got to the doors and he promptly closed them again. I knocked on the doors but he ignored me and pulled off. What really p1ssed me off was that he had opened the doors again, then closed them when he saw me. That’s just being a dick in my view.

d51984

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493113#Comment_120493113

Once the doors are closed hes not really ment to open them again, hes just doing as hes been trained. Blaim the judges giving silly money for silly claims.

Qrt

I read online today that the N2 had been “cancelled”, was referring to the Phoenix Park so I assume it’s just that part but the N2 in general will be a very good route. I assume it’s far down the pecking order?

The 27 is still diverted past 6pm, which poses a dilemma for GAI. We will see what way it pans out.

bk

"I read online today that the N2 had been “cancelled”, was referring to the Phoenix Park so I assume it’s just that part but the N2 in general will be a very good route. I assume it’s far down the pecking order?"

Where did you read that? For feck sake, I'm dying for the N2 to start up, it will be a real game changer for me, even more then the N4.

"Is it strictly an EV bus route? Can it not operate in the interim with standard buses? That route would provide a huge amount of connectivity around the city."

The O route can't use the existing Double Decker buses, it can only use single decker buses as the route passes under a rail bridge. Dublin Bus only has three existing single deckers, so they have to wait for the new buses to arrive. All new buses being bought are now EV.

The delay is more about the lack of drivers then the new buses or EV charging infrastructure. They have already introduced the new EV single decker buses in Athlone. The bus driver shortage is impacting the rollout of all new BusConnects routes unfortunately. And I agree, it is very frustrating.

"The N4 is certainly a positive addition to the network, but I would make the point that the frequency of both the N4 and N6 was cut from every 10 minutes to every 12 minutes at the start of February.

That’s one bus fewer than previously every hour in each direction on both routes at peak times and off-peak during the day, so maybe not quite such a “big success”, but rather a positive addition to the network."

I really wouldn't look at it that way. I assume the reducing in frequency is more to help with freeing up a driver for other routes, rather then necessarily a reflection on the success on the routes. 12 minutes v 10 minutes isn't such a big deal. Though I hope they return to 10 mins in future when the driver shortage is fixed.

Though when I say "success", I'd say more in terms of the concept of orbital routes along with the 90 minute ticket. The times I've taken it off peak, while obviously not hanging out the doors or anything like that, it is surprisingly busy for an orbital route.

I think it more then proves that there is strong demand for these sort of orbital routes and really helps build out and properly connect the network.

Tusky

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493200#Comment_120493200

Where did you read that? I've been waiting for this route to be launched.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120492796#Comment_120492796

Is the L25 operational now then?

Dundrum to DL?

I struggle also with the busconners site, even just to get basic rollout info.

L25 will be a useful route though, whenever it happens

p_haugh

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493893#Comment_120493893

L25 has not launched yet.

The following page shows each phase that's been launched so far, it is updated whenever a phase is launched. The most recent was phase 4 (G-spine & 60).

https://busconnects.ie/initiatives/new-dublin-area-bus-network/

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493917#Comment_120493917

Thanks!

Do we have an eta for the L25 do you know?

I find searching that busconnects site like wading through treacle, but i appreciate the send!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493928#Comment_120493928

I was using the L25 & S2 to illustrate the scale of the staffing problem, by making the point that I estimate that the L25 and S2 will require approximately 50 brand new drivers between them to operate, based on their proposed frequencies. That’s a lot of drivers that the company doesn’t have.

Given that Dublin Bus are still cancelling and curtailing services on the existing network, every day, I was then making the point that there is no point in even trying to estimate when any of these routes will happen as they have nowhere near enough drivers to enable them to operate their existing services, let alone any new routes.

The NTA have committed to no further routes being implemented until the bus operating companies are sufficiently staffed.

So, the answers to your questions are no, they are they are not operating, and no, no one can give a realistic estimate of when they might happen, as the staff situation is such a major problem, with seemingly the numbers leaving through retirement or resignation still not being eclipsed by new arrivals at anything close to the required rate.

LXFlyer

Just to add, that I’m beginning to notice GoAhead cancelling services with some regularity again. This is despite them saying recently that they had the numbers to operate the current services.

There’s a 75 cancelled this morning, a 175 cancelled on Sunday, and another on Saturday, meaning two hour gaps in service on that route, and I’ve seen reports of trips on the 33b being cancelled again (serious as those people have no alternative PT).

VonLuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493086#Comment_120493086

Again a bit of a misunderstanding! I am fully aware of the labour shortage, I'm just saying that it's amazes me that we're at this point where we have a long-awaited piece of public infrastructure and the one thing holding us back is not having enough bus drivers. It's like falling at the final hurdle after an extremely long (and tiring) race.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494167#Comment_120494167

I would have said then that if you were fully aware of the general labour shortages, then this really shouldn’t be a surprise at all.

The bus companies aren’t in watertight bubbles isolated from the rest of the economy, they’re subject to the same problems facing schools, hospitals and many other sectors.

It is the reality of the economy right now sadly.

Incidentally this is nothing to do with infrastructure, it’s all to do with expanding services and to do that you need two components. New buses and new drivers. It’s that simple.

The 24 hour aspect of many of the new services while welcome for customers, does appear to be one reason staff are leaving, as they don’t enjoy the night shifts, with all the issues they can bring.

This labour shortage problem is one that ultimately is going to need to be addressed at government level to be honest. It’s coupled with the housing crisis. People can’t afford to live in Dublin.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120493703#Comment_120493703

Looks like someone has read through the recently released Draft Phoenix Park Parking Strategy, and assumed the worst. There's a few places in there that mention BusConnects spines, but there's no mention of the N2 at all. The last I heard (ages ago now), the OPW was blocking the N2 going through the park, as the gates are a protected structure, and the bus wouldn't be able to fit through safely. I find that objection to be a complete waste of time, because if the gates are protected, you probably shouldn't be funnelling thousands of cars through them every day.

The N2 could still launch, but without going through the park, just around the boundary.

In saying that however, while the report doesn't mention the N2, it does mention that people responding to their first survey said that a bus route operated by Dublin Bus would be the two biggest drivers (One response is "a main bus route", the other is "bus route serving transport hub") of getting people out of their cars.

While the report is actually high quality, they've got a survey to go with it that's insane. There's nothing on bus routes, and the vast majority of the questions posed are along the lines of "do you support us increasing car parking at this site" and so on. If they get a positive response on all of those questions, there'd be well over a thousand new car parking spaces in the park. Insane.

https://twitter.com/phoenixparkOPW/status/1648593934958964736

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120494443#Comment_120494443

The N2 was originally supposed to operate along Blackhorse Avenue, the NCR and Infirmary Road, and that would still provide a link from Heuston, Broombridge and the northside spines to the Phoenix Park, albeit outside the wall.