BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

d51984

Citrus_8 wrote: »

...while in other countries it's not a problem Just a lame excuse.

Dont go there, you will open up a can of worms 😂😂😂

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

Yes it's going to be extremely confusing to many especially now with db, be, GAI, other operators all the one colour, look at the complaints in against db and nothing to do with them....

I don't see why DB and GA city services in the same colour would be confusing, after all only a few years ago, most of the GA routes were in DB colours.

People in London aren't confused by all buses being red, despite being operated by roughly a dozen different companies.

It is the same service no matter which company operates the route, same fares, same leap card, etc. So should also be the same livery for consistency.

I would think that perhaps BE and GAI commuter services could have a different livery, as they are a different type of service, though perhaps a livery different from the "city" services, but consistent between BE and GAI commuter services would make sense.

Having said that I'm glad they are finally moving to a consistent livery and branding, more inline with London Bus and with a livery much nicer IMO then the old DB one, which really isn't very nice looking IMO.

punisher5112

bk wrote: »

I don't see why DB and GA city services in the same colour would be confusing, after all only a few years ago, most of the GA routes were in DB colours.

People in London aren't confused by all buses being red, despite being operated by roughly a dozen different companies.

It is the same service no matter which company operates the route, same fares, same leap card, etc. So should also be the same livery for consistency.

I would think that perhaps BE and GAI commuter services could have a different livery, as they are a different type of service, though perhaps a livery different from the "city" services, but consistent between BE and GAI commuter services would make sense.

Having said that I'm glad they are finally moving to a consistent livery and branding, more inline with London Bus and with a livery much nicer IMO then the old DB one, which really isn't very nice looking IMO.

No what I mean is coaches now too... That's pure confusion, many don't even know what type of bus they're getting on.

bk

punisher5112 wrote: »

No what I mean is coaches now too... That's pure confusion, many don't even know what type of bus they're getting on.

Yes, I agree partly on that, I do think that the long distance BE and GAI (like Navan) commuter coaches could have a different livery from the city serivce, but consistent across all commuter services.

So two liveries:
- a "city services" livery (DB and GAI ex DB routes) and
- a long distance "commuter" livery (BE and GAI ex BE routes).

Having said that, I can't see too many people being confusing an actual proper coach with a DB city bus!! It is more the BE Double Deckers buses operating into Dublin which look like a typical city buses, where is where I could see confusion happening.

GT89

bk wrote: »

I don't see why DB and GA city services in the same colour would be confusing, after all only a few years ago, most of the GA routes were in DB colours.

People in London aren't confused by all buses being red, despite being operated by roughly a dozen different companies.

It is the same service no matter which company operates the route, same fares, same leap card, etc. So should also be the same livery for consistency.

I would think that perhaps BE and GAI commuter services could have a different livery, as they are a different type of service, though perhaps a livery different from the "city" services, but consistent between BE and GAI commuter services would make sense.

Having said that I'm glad they are finally moving to a consistent livery and branding, more inline with London Bus and with a livery much nicer IMO then the old DB one, which really isn't very nice looking IMO.

The difference is that the NTA haven't properly consolidated all bus related information into one database and you still have to refer to each operators website or social media if you want timetables, make a complaint or retrieve lost property.

In the same way that TFL have. I'm not a big fan of twitter but I have noticed people tweeting the TFI twitter account and being referred to the operator.

Dyr

GT89 wrote: »

Visibility is the reason. The blue was considered hard to see for people with poor eyesight I believe.

I'd love to see if there was any actual data to back that up

And frankly. if we're making design decisions based on people who cant see a bus unless its high viz....

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punisher5112 wrote: »

Why can't we keep Ireland Irish..... I don't like the we have to follow Europe rubbish.

Isn't it nice to have some retro, old, classic stuff.....

Look how phone boxes were all ripped out, now villages putting them back as show items.

I'm not saying keep rusty rubbish but I think we can keep our looks and we won't with all this we will just look like everywhere else.

Yes of course some stuff is good etc but just think money could be better spent.

Because if theres one thing official Ireland does its ape those they consider their betters. The NTA wont be happy until Dublin is fully decked out in High Vis yellow plastic and brused aluminium like some health and safety showroom.

Peregrine

GT89 wrote: »

The difference is that the NTA haven't properly consolidated all bus related information into one database and you still have to refer to each operators website or social media if you want timetables, make a complaint or retrieve lost property.

In the same way that TFL have. I'm not a big fan of twitter but I have noticed people tweeting the TFI twitter account and being referred to the operator.

They're developing a consolidated customer contact centre under the TFI brand now. One customer care centre for all PSO services.

GT89

Peregrine wrote: »

They're developing a consolidated customer contact centre under the TFI brand now. One customer care centre for all PSO services.

I wonder will that mean that some staff from operators in the relevant transfer over to the NTA under TUPE. Seems to heading the one direction and that's towards full scale tendering of all public transport. Also still have to check with operators regarding diversions or disruption to service.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

The difference is that the NTA haven't properly consolidated all bus related information into one database and you still have to refer to each operators website or social media if you want timetables, make a complaint or retrieve lost property.

Well they are making progress on that, you have https://www.transportforireland.ie now which includes an integrated journey planner, TFI real time data, service interruptions, fare data and Leap.

So that just leaves the customer contact center which is supposedly coming soon and the timetables. Seems like it would be easy to put the timetables on the site too.

So not there yet, but (very slowly) getting there.

GT89

bk wrote: »

Well they are making progress on that, you have https://www.transportforireland.ie now which includes an integrated journey planner, TFI real time data, service interruptions, fare data and Leap.

So that just leaves the customer contact center which is supposedly coming soon and the timetables. Seems like it would be easy to put the timetables on the site too.

So not there yet, but (very slowly) getting there.

Nice to see the NTA providing solutions to the problems they're creating. There's only been confusion since the NTA put services out to tender never any confusion prior to tendering by when all routes were DB.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

Nice to see the NTA providing solutions to the problems they're creating. There's only been confusion since the NTA put services out to tender never any confusion prior to tendering by when all routes were DB.

I mean there was still confusion even back then as there was no integration between DB, Luas and DART, along with the likes of Swords Express, Aircoach, etc.

This lack of integration of public transport has existed for years before GAI or NTA even existed! And those of us who have been on this site a long time, have been complaining about it for many years.

Some of the suggestions that the Dublin Bus journey planner give you are pretty insane as they completely ignore Luas and DART as an option!!!

GT89

bk wrote: »

I mean there was still confusion even back then as there was no integration between DB, Luas and DART, along with the likes of Swords Express, Aircoach, etc.

This lack of integration of public transport has existed for years before GAI or NTA even existed! And those of us who have been on this site a long time, have been complaining about it for many years.

Some of the suggestions that the Dublin Bus journey planner give you are pretty insane as they completely ignore Luas and DART as an option!!!

Swords Express and Aircoach are not PSO so it's not really that confusing. Aircoach don't even do Leap on their services. They're on a different fare structure.

DB were originally supposed to run the Luas but then it was decided that it was better for it to be tendered. In Berlin for example there's zero confusion as all buses, trams and U-Bahn is BVG only the S-Bahn is Dautsche Bahn but there's good integration.

Why couldn't we just have something similar here and have Dublin Bus operate all buses and trams. Then integrate with IE for the DART.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

Swords Express and Aircoach are not PSO so it's not really that confusing. Aircoach don't even do Leap on their services. They're on a different fare structure.

PSO or not, doesn't matter, Swords Express is still public transport which is an alternative option to DB for people living in Swords and should of course be included in all journey planners.

Most people couldn't care less if it is PSO or not or even what that means, they just care about what is the fastest and most convenient option for them (taking into account cost too). All options for a particular journey should be made available to them.

Plus options for taxi, walking, cycling, etc.

GT89 wrote: »

DB were originally supposed to run the Luas but then it was decided that it was better for it to be tendered. In Berlin for example there's zero confusion as all buses, trams and U-Bahn is BVG only the S-Bahn is Dautsche Bahn but there's good integration.

That is wrong, Luas was originally being designed by a team at Irish Rail, DB were never involved.

The team was taken out of IR and the RPA was created, which would later became TII (after merging with the NRA). TII contracted the operation of Luas out to Transdev.

GT89 wrote: »

Why couldn't we just have something similar here and have Dublin Bus operate all buses and trams. Then integrate with IE for the DART.

Because over decades of DB, BE and IR being part of the same parent company CIE, they have proven themselves completely incompetent at any sort of integration. Instead they competed aggressively with one another and overall had very poor customer information systems.

They had decades to prove otherwise and they never did, so it was well past time for the government to step in and sort it out.

Personally I've no particular preference, TFL in London shows that multiple different companies operating under contract can work in a well integrated manner, and yes on the other hand Berlin shows different public companies work well together.

Honestly I don't really care which way, I just want proper integration like you find in most of Europe.

But we did try the public way for more then 50 years and it has failed miserably in almost every way imaginable to deliver any sort of modern, well integrated transport network, so I do think it is time to try the TFL model instead now.

GT89

bk wrote: »

PSO or not, doesn't matter, Swords Express is still public transport which is an alternative option to DB for people living in Swords and should of course be included in all journey planners.

Most people couldn't care less if it is PSO or not or even what that means, they just care about what is the fastest and most convenient option for them (taking into account cost too). All options for a particular journey should be made available to them.

True but Swords Express would have a different fare structure than DB. I think most people who use the service know it's a premium/niche service compared to PSO services. It might be confusing if someone sees the Swords Express on a journey planner only to find out when it arrives that it's a different type of service and fares are more expensive

Because over decades of DB, BE and IR being part of the same parent company CIE, they have proven themselves completely incompetent at any sort of integration. Instead they competed aggressively with one another and overall had very poor customer information systems.

They had decades to prove otherwise and they never did, so it was well past time for the government to step in and sort it out.

Personally I've no particular preference, TFL in London shows that multiple different companies operating under contract can work in a well integrated manner, and yes on the other hand Berlin shows different public companies work well together.

Honestly I don't really care which way, I just want proper integration like you find in most of Europe.

But we did try the public way for more then 50 years and it has failed miserably in almost every way imaginable to deliver any sort of modern, well integrated transport network, so I do think it is time to try the TFL model instead now.

There was more so competition between BE and IE on a select few intercity routes. I don't ever remember aggressive competition between DB and IE. In fact there used to be IE and DB combi tickets. Go-Ahead are trying to save costs by getting drivers to operate multiple routes in one shift and paying them significantly less than DB.

But instead the money GAI are making is going to their shareholders whereas the money DB make is going to paying staff. I would rather ordinary workers receive the benefits of successful public transport rather than shareholders earning six figure annual salaries.

bk

GT89 wrote: »

True but Swords Express would have a different fare structure than DB. I think most people who use the service know it's a premium/niche service compared to PSO services. It might be confusing if someone sees the Swords Express on a journey planner only to find out when it arrives that it's a different type of service and fares are more expensive

Which is why the TFI journey planner includes an indication of fares. So no confusion.

GT89 wrote: »

There was more so competition between BE and IE on a select few intercity routes. I don't ever remember aggressive competition between DB and IE. In fact there used to be IE and DB combi tickets. Go-Ahead are trying to save costs by getting drivers to operate multiple routes in one shift and paying them significantly less than DB.

Just the fact that DART didn't appear on the DB journey planner says it all!

BTW I note that the dublinbus.ie now integrates and makes use of the TFI journey planner, that is finally the sort of improvements I'm on about.

GT89 wrote: »

But instead the money GAI are making is going to their shareholders whereas the money DB make is going to paying staff. I would rather ordinary workers receive the benefits of successful public transport rather than shareholders earning six figure annual salaries.

I certainly want to see staff of all companies fairly paid. But there is no guarantee with semi-state companies. BE isn't supposed to be so great to drive for. While Luas drivers seem to be well paid and treated in a private company.

Yes private companies of course are profit driven, but public companies can end up with far too many overpaid management types and inspectors for the size of the company and wasteful of money in that way and inefficient in other ways they are run.

Non of us want to return to the bad old days of semi-state run Telecom Eireann or Aerlingus of the past. Terrible companies, that cost a fortune for the very poor service they offered. If you are young, you might not know just how bad many of the semi-state sector companies were in Ireland and how much better we have it now.

The Luas model seems to wok very well. Owned by the government, but contracted out to a private company to operate. Just two Luas lines end up carrying almost as many passengers as the entire Irish Rail network and widely popular with passengers.

Again, I'm not really ideological about this, but we did try the semi-state model already for decades and for the most part with pretty poor results.

I do want to see all employees of all companies well treated and paid, public or private, but I also want to see a top quality service for us passengers in return and that is where my focus tends to be.

GT89

bk wrote: »

Just the fact that DART didn't appear on the DB journey planner says it all!

BTW I note that the dublinbus.ie now integrates and makes use of the TFI journey planner, that is finally the sort of improvements I'm on about.

I agree that the DB journey planner was fairly poor if that's the case. But there was no incentive for them to include the DART at the time and as you say it is integrated now.

I certainly want to see staff of all companies fairly paid. But there is no guarantee with semi-state companies. BE isn't supposed to be so great to drive for. While Luas drivers seem to be well paid and treated in a private company.

Yes private companies of course are profit driven, but public companies can end up with far too many overpaid management types and inspectors for the size of the company and wasteful of money in that way and inefficient in other ways they are run.

Non of us want to return to the bad old days of semi-state run Telecom Eireann or Aerlingus of the past. Terrible companies, that cost a fortune for the very poor service they offered. If you are young, you might not know just how bad many of the semi-state sector companies were in Ireland and how much better we have it now.

The Luas model seems to wok very well. Owned by the government, but contracted out to a private company to operate. Just two Luas lines end up carrying almost as many passengers as the entire Irish Rail network and widely popular with passengers.

Again, I'm not really ideological about this, but we did try the semi-state model already for decades and for the most part with pretty poor results.

I do want to see all employees of all companies well treated and well paid, public or private, but I also want to see a top quality service for us passengers in return.

I think it really does depend on how a company is managed and run for example An Post is state run and seems to work well actually better than the postal service in a lot of countries for example.

The Luas is very popular because it runs on a dedicated passage and has little interaction with traffic for most of it's route meaning journey times are quick. If it was run by a state operator the results would likely be the same. Let's face it Transdev have an easy job running the Luas compared to DB or even Go-Ahead. It is also a much more modern system compared to Irish Rail as it's been built more recently.

devnull

bk wrote: »

BTW I note that the dublinbus.ie now integrates and makes use of the TFI journey planner, that is finally the sort of improvements I'm on about.

I think part of it is because the new direct award contracts issued to the PSO operators have given the NTA a bit more bite and have been more implicit about things like this, which is why you're seeing things like this progressed in a way that you didn't see during the last direct awards.

This has been the case for a little while now. Note that it's not exactly the same as the TFI Journey planner that is linked to by Go Ahead Ireland or LUAS or on the Transport for Ireland site. The DB version only contains routes within the Greater Dublin Area and excludes commercial operators.

MJohnston

bk wrote: »

Yes, I agree partly on that, I do think that the long distance BE and GAI (like Navan) commuter coaches could have a different livery from the city serivce, but consistent across all commuter services.

So two liveries:
- a "city services" livery (DB and GAI ex DB routes) and
- a long distance "commuter" livery (BE and GAI ex BE routes).

Having said that, I can't see too many people being confusing an actual proper coach with a DB city bus!! It is more the BE Double Deckers buses operating into Dublin which look like a typical city buses, where is where I could see confusion happening.

Is there really confusion potential with this though? Like, I'm standing at a stop in the city centre waiting for the 46A, I don't get confused by all the identical buses passing by and try to get on them. I'm looking for the route numbers!

GT89

MJohnston wrote: »

Is there really confusion potential with this though? Like, I'm standing at a stop in the city centre waiting for the 46A, I don't get confused by all the identical buses passing by and try to get on them. I'm looking for the route numbers!

You'd be surprised at how some thick some are

ax586

MJohnston wrote: »

Is there really confusion potential with this though? Like, I'm standing at a stop in the city centre waiting for the 46A, I don't get confused by all the identical buses passing by and try to get on them. I'm looking for the route numbers!

You be very surprised that dont look at the route numbers and destinations..The best is when im driving the 16 to the airport people get on and say are you going to the airport...before covid DB where getting inundated with complaints about the 17A and other services so yea people still thought it was run buy DB not GAI.

MJohnston

ax586 wrote: »

You be very surprised that dont look at the route numbers and destinations..The best is when im driving the 16 to the airport people get on and say are you going to the airport...before covid DB where getting inundated with complaints about the 17A and other services so yea people still thought it was run buy DB not GAI.

But like on the flip side of that, livery isn’t going to solve that problem. That’s just people not aware of bus routes.

Citrus_8

MJohnston wrote: »

But like on the flip side of that, livery isn’t going to solve that problem. That’s just people not aware of bus routes.

Regarding complains once TFI will start providing customer service and dealing with complains, an operator won't be important as all queries will go through TFI only.

About the routes and destinations - livery helps only on the local or rural roads where a city and intercity pass by and both have that same stop included in their schedule. In that case it's easier to identify the bus by livery from a bigger distance on these regional roads as a bus speed is greater. It gives extra few seconds to the drivers as people in a bus stop can recognise a bus quicker and rise their hand sooner.

I'm really not fancy to see city and intercity buses with same livery. In my opinion it's a very bad decision. Most of cities in all of the world have their own unique bus livery, while intercity, depending on country, have a different livery for each company or at least the region.

Even non PSO, such as Ashbourne or Swords, buses, in my opinion, should have same Dublin city livery and be integrated in the Leap system making their prices even if not same as city buses, but at least with a special city outskirts zone. That's just a common sense and a good practise.

Vic_08

MJohnston wrote: »

But like on the flip side of that, livery isn’t going to solve that problem. That’s just people not aware of bus routes.

Most people are aware though and will not attempt to stop or board a Bus Eireann bus passing by. That is true of the routes run with near identical double deck buses as well as coaches, the current clear difference between a blue/yellow and white/red makes it very clear they are not a city route bus.

The fundamental difference between the two networks, primarily the BE/regional buses being pick up/set down only for most if not all of the overlapping routes they share with city bus routes, as well as not being part of the same fare/ticket framework is more than a good enough reason to make them visually different.

I have no doubt there will be more confusion and conflict with buses on both networks being near identical in appearance.

Even with a standard NTA livery, there is nothing stopping them applying the same paint layout in clearly different colours, either keep the BE red/white or chose a different palette that instantly makes regional buses stand out from the city buses.

There is some irony that Go-Ahead are the other main operator involved. They are the only large UK group with no corporate livery, who far more than any other operator opt for route-specific liveries and heavily individualised route branding.

Peregrine

In news that won't surprise anyone, the H spine implementation won't start in March 2021 as planned before COVID. Delayed by a few months.

john boye

GT89 wrote: »

You'd be surprised at how some thick some are

If some people are unaware enough to put their hand out for the wrong route number then they're probably not going to pay much attention to the colour of the bus either.

punisher5112

john boye wrote: »

If some people are unaware enough to put their hand out for the wrong route number then they're probably not going to pay much attention to the colour of the bus either.

Out of service, Learner, going to my house, fcuk right off for example could be on the front and if you stopped they'd get on.....

Going through finglas in the red and white L bus they be getting on at stops.

Happens a lot on like of N11 and some gonuts that you should be going one way etc but they're on the wrong bus.

john boye

punisher5112 wrote: »

Out of service, Learner, going to my house, fcuk right off for example could be on the front and if you stopped they'd get on.....

Going through finglas in the red and white L bus they be getting on at stops.

Happens a lot on like of N11 and some gonuts that you should be going one way etc but they're on the wrong bus.

Exactly. Would make no difference to some if every bus was either in the same colours or if every bus in the city had its own unique livery.

ITV2

punisher5112 wrote: »

Yes they do, happens quite often actually....

I'd a lady get on my bus on Marine rd Dun Laoghaire, when I turned right as the 46A does she yelled you're going the wrong way the 45A goes left?? Ya don't win ;-)

GT89

john boye wrote: »

Exactly. Would make no difference to some if every bus was either in the same colours or if every bus in the city had its own unique livery.

I don't think many would confuse a Bus Eireann bus for a Dublin city bus. Although the likes of Cork, Galway and Limerick all buses are in the same livery coaches and city buses

GT89

ITV2 wrote: »

I'd a lady get on my bus on Marine rd Dun Laoghaire, when I turned right as the 46A does she yelled you're going the wrong way the 45A goes left?? Ya don't win ;-)

I'm not sure why they cant give one of those routes a different number. They do look kind of similar on the display and the RTPI screens. 46 would make much more sense instead of 46a when there is no route 46 and hasn't been for about 20 years. But all this sentimentality nonsense about the 46a.