BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

LastStop

Full steam ahead..... That's what they say about themselves now. I'm more interested in what the ministers for transport and finance say in a month or so.

hmmm

donvito99 wrote: »

Bambi getting out into the real world every so often would do you a lot of good.

Real world? I don't see how office workers go back without a vaccine or a significant breakthrough in treatment. The medical publications are showing a virus that spreads fast in indoor environments, particularly noisy environments with people speaking. You need good ventilation to reduce the risk.

Unless we're going to turn off all the HVAC systems and force open the windows, forbid employees from speaking and close all the meeting rooms, there is a real risk of spread in offices. On top of that is that while the virus is in circulation, a large number of people will avoid public transport.

WFH doesn't work for everyone now, particularly alongside child-minding, but if we get to 2021, kids are back in primary school, people have invested in their home offices, things might look different. Large numbers of overseas staff may be allowed return to their home countries and WFH. Things could be very different.

I wouldn't use this as an excuse to stop investment in public transport, but there is a very valid argument to hold off on making investments where the previous capacity projections might not be accurate. Things like BusConnects and planning for Metro could still go ahead, but it's not time to put any machines into the ground - and by the time it comes to that we'll know more anyway.

donvito99

hmmm wrote: »

Real world? I don't see how office workers go back without a vaccine or a significant breakthrough in treatment. The medical publications are showing a virus that spreads fast in indoor environments, particularly noisy environments with people speaking. You need good ventilation to reduce the risk.

Unless we're going to turn off all the HVAC systems and force open the windows, forbid employees from speaking and close all the meeting rooms, there is a real risk of spread in offices. On top of that is that while the virus is in circulation, a large number of people will avoid public transport.

WFH doesn't work for everyone now, particularly alongside child-minding, but if we get to 2021, kids are back in primary school, people have invested in their home offices, things might look different. Large numbers of overseas staff may be allowed return to their home countries and WFH. Things could be very different.

I wouldn't use this as an excuse to stop investment in public transport, but there is a very valid argument to hold off on making investments where the previous capacity projections might not be accurate. Things like BusConnects and planning for Metro could still go ahead, but it's not time to put any machines into the ground - and by the time it comes to that we'll know more anyway.

He discounted the idea of "mass" transit in a "post-pandemic" world, not that TBMs should not be going in the ground any time soon.

Podge_irl

Also, considering the timeframes to build these things and the fact that the extra capacity is needed now you would have to be projecting public transport use as being significantly below current levels still in 7 years time and I doubt anyone would think that is a reasonable view.

Dyr

hmmm wrote: »

Real world? I don't see how office workers go back without a vaccine or a significant breakthrough in treatment.

Don't be uspetting the lads with reality, We're so close to having this shiny new solution of the future

The idea that it could be consigned to be dustbin of history, like other genius projects such as turning Temple Bar into a giant bus depot would be an unbearable travesty.

donvito99

Bambi wrote: »

Don't be uspetting the lads with reality, We're so close to having this shiny new solution of the future

The idea that it could be consigned to be dustbin of history, like other genius projects such as turning Temple Bar into a giant bus depot would be an unbearable travesty.

Thankfully, the reality for most of us Bambi is living our lives outside of an attic.

And wouldn't it have been better for Temple Bar to have been knocked for a bus depot, seeing as you don't see a need for people to be in the City centre or anywhere else for that matter any more?

PhilOssophy

loyatemu wrote: »

The transport system was already over-capacity. The changes in work practises brought about by C19 might bring back to just being at capacity, but it won't take long for the numbers to go back up. Dublin will have 2m inhabitants in 20 years, it needs a functioning mass-transit system regardless of this pandemic.

The work practice changes could mean the population never comes near 2m. If remote working becomes the norm, it could mean people can live anywhere and work anywhere, be that at home or a co working space. That could spell the end for population growth in the cities, the main draw of cities is work don't forget.

Podge_irl

Work may be the main draw, but it is far from the only one. I also think people are massively overestimating the long term shift to WFH.

Our current infrastructure is insufficient for now, it is insufficient for 10 years ago and it will be insufficient for 10 years from now if we do nothing.

MJohnston

This is a wild discussion. Have you all suddenly forgotten that we don't need to just accommodate everyone who used public transport before this, but we also need to convert a huge amount of people away from using cars? The air pollution from vehicles has made us all the more vulnerable to respiratory illnesses, cancers, and many other health issues.

This pandemic is the ultimate reason to get people using more sustainable transport, not less.

donvito99

Even if working from home was a seamless exercise, it is not true to say that everyone will want to work from home.

Dyr

donvito99 wrote: »

Even if working from home was a seamless exercise, it is not true to say that everyone will want to work from home.

Not every one wants to travel by bus either, but y'know greater good and all that.

GT89

Bambi wrote: »

Not every one wants to travel by bus either, but y'know greater good and all that.

No one wants to travel by bus unless you are a bus enthusiast. People travel on buses because they it's often the most practical way for them to get to where they want to where they want to be. Nobody travels on public transport just for the craic.

PhilOssophy

Of course not everybody wants to work from home, I also mentioned people working from local towns and co working spaces for just that reason.
Maybe we are overestimating the WFH shift, but plenty of companies are now asking why they are spending a fortune on office space when they don't need to.
Anyway, I suppose that discussion is a thread in itself.

sharper

Bambi wrote: »

Don't be uspetting the lads with reality, We're so close to having this shiny new solution of the future

Is your position really just let's not do public transport?

This is a perfect representation of the public transport cycle - when times are good it's too expensive to do anything, when times are bad it's not worth doing anything.

Maintenance on the roads must cost a fair bit too, should we start closing them off and letting them return to nature? What's the M50 for if so many people are working from home?

salmocab

donvito99 wrote: »

Even if working from home was a seamless exercise, it is not true to say that everyone will want to work from home.

I would suspect that even with greater WFH in society it’s more likely that people will do things like 3 days home 2 in the office, this will still mean people need to be within commutable distance anyway. I think the utopia where people think they can be on an island nowhere near their office is very unlikely for most people that have options to WFH.

Dyr

sharper wrote: »

Is your position really just let's not do public transport?

This is a perfect representation of the public transport cycle - when times are good it's too expensive to do anything, when times are bad it's not worth doing anything.

Maintenance on the roads must cost a fair bit too, should we start closing them off and letting them return to nature? What's the M50 for if so many people are working from home?

Commuting to work is what causes most gridlock, its the driver of the whole bus connects fiasco.

My position is we need to wage war on commuting for the sustainability of our environment, society and even economy at this stage. And now we know we can do it.

Interesting to note so many posters who were pushing more buses on a green agenda dont like the idea of radically dropping our commuter numbers. Thats called being disigenous

I see cambridge uni are going fully online for next year

https://www.thejournal.ie/universities-5103397-May2020/

Oops... there goes another rubber tree plant

Podge_irl

Bambi wrote: »

My position is we need to wage war on commuting for the sustainability of our environment, society and even economy at this stage. And now we know we can do it.

Apart from the historically unprecedented unemployment numbers and the unknown impact on efficiency of those still working?

cgcsb

There might be less commuting and more working from home, but whatever gap that creates will soon be filled, there is no getting out of having mass transit systems in place.

sharper

Bambi wrote: »

Interesting to note so many posters who were pushing more buses on a green agenda dont like the idea of radically dropping our commuter numbers. Thats called being disigenous

Interesting to note that you avoided my question about the road network. Are we also waging war on this or is it only public transport?

cgcsb

Bambi wrote: »

Commuting to work is what causes most gridlock, its the driver of the whole bus connects fiasco.

My position is we need to wage war on commuting for the sustainability of our environment, society and even economy at this stage. And now we know we can do it.

Interesting to note so many posters who were pushing more buses on a green agenda dont like the idea of radically dropping our commuter numbers. Thats called being disigenous

I see cambridge uni are going fully online for next year

https://www.thejournal.ie/universities-5103397-May2020/

Oops... there goes another rubber tree plant

So you're saying that commuter motorways like the M3, M2, M50 etc. could be converted to cycleways, walkways and space for wild flowers on one side with the other side used solely to move HGVs away from towns? Cutting motorway maintenance bills in half.

Dyr

sharper wrote: »

Interesting to note that you avoided my question about the road network. Are we also waging war on this or is it only public transport?

Why would we wage war on motorways?

We can scale back on maintenance if it turns out we need to but the motorways will be grand I'd say, its the work commute we'll be targeting to good effect.

Going to need those footpaths back too for the social distancing, NTA might have to undo some of the sterling work they did in reducing pedestrian space to little gangways

tom1ie

cgcsb wrote: »

There might be less commuting and more working from home, but whatever gap that creates will soon be filled, there is no getting out of having mass transit systems in place.

What will fill the gap that is created?
Traffic is at its worse in the morning and afternoon when people go to work/ come home from work.
We have two options to reduce that
Ban cars and get people to use pt
Or ban cars and get people who can to wfh.
It’ll be interesting to see just what percentage of the work force that commute into and out from Dublin cc and industrial estates could potentially wfh.
If it was say 20% why would that not lead to the same approximate reduction in traffic level during working hours as these people are in work (at home) without contributing to traffic levels.

GT89

Bambi wrote: »

Why would we wage war on motorways?

For the same reason you are suggesting waging war on public transport?

We can scale back on maintenance if it turns out we need to but the motorways will be grand I'd say, its the work commute we'll be targeting to good effect.

And people don't use motorways to commute to and from work? The facts are as follows

Not everyone can work from home

Not everyone uses public transport to go to and fro work

Not everyone works 9-5

Public transport usage levels are already recovering slowly but surely

Quality public transport is nessecary in order for society to function properly

Seth Brundle

cgcsb wrote: »

So you're saying that commuter motorways like the M3, M2, M50 etc. could be converted to cycleways, walkways and space for wild flowers on one side with the other side used solely to move HGVs away from towns? Cutting motorway maintenance bills in half.

Our motorways are not "commuting motorways"!
They are motorways which become heavily congested by people commuting in cars twice a day!

cgcsb

tom1ie wrote: »

What will fill the gap that is created?
Traffic is at its worse in the morning and afternoon when people go to work/ come home from work.
We have two options to reduce that
Ban cars and get people to use pt
Or ban cars and get people who can to wfh.
It’ll be interesting to see just what percentage of the work force that commute into and out from Dublin cc and industrial estates could potentially wfh.
If it was say 20% why would that not lead to the same approximate reduction in traffic level during working hours as these people are in work (at home) without contributing to traffic levels.

It'll be filled by growth, as always.

PirateShampoo

Yes let's all work from home... Then what? The people and business who rely on people coming into the commical centre's, who don't have handy WFH home jobs go out of business and become unemployed.

The Econemmy is a Ecosystem you remove something and the rest falls like a house of cards. Look at the last recession.

AlmightyCushion

Bambi wrote: »

Commuting to work is what causes most gridlock, its the driver of the whole bus connects fiasco.

My position is we need to wage war on commuting for the sustainability of our environment, society and even economy at this stage. And now we know we can do it.

Interesting to note so many posters who were pushing more buses on a green agenda dont like the idea of radically dropping our commuter numbers. Thats called being disigenous

I see cambridge uni are going fully online for next year

https://www.thejournal.ie/universities-5103397-May2020/

Oops... there goes another rubber tree plant

Maybe you should read the article instead of the headline.

Lectures will continue virtually until Summer 2021, the university said

They're only doing online only because of social distancing requirements. Once that is over they will have students back in college. I do think we need to look at ways to reduce peak commuting but we still need good public transport.

marno21

Absolutely zero reason why we should change any of our public transport plans because of this. It's a temporary blip and we will move beyond it.

The way some people are talking SARS-CoV-2 is an extraterrestrial organism that will permanently paralyse society and kill us all. It's a virus with a low fatality rate, the issue for us is that it's very infectious and carriers can infect others without knowing. People who overcome the infection produce antibodies and have an as of yet degree of uncertainty. We will produce a vaccine which will provide population immunity and some day we will end the current emergency, social distancing, isolation etc.

Dyr

tom1ie wrote: »

What will fill the gap that is created?
Traffic is at its worse in the morning and afternoon when people go to work/ come home from work.
We have two options to reduce that
Ban cars and get people to use pt
Or ban cars and get people who can to wfh.
It’ll be interesting to see just what percentage of the work force that commute into and out from Dublin cc and industrial estates could potentially wfh.
If it was say 20% why would that not lead to the same approximate reduction in traffic level during working hours as these people are in work (at home) without contributing to traffic levels.

what you're seeing is the dissembling of Public Transport Evangelists.

The rallying cry has been to increase public transport in order to ease congestion, save the enviornment and so forth. Now we have seen a situation where we can do those things AND reduce our need to restructure the city to accomodate endless streams of buses, the real reason for the evangelism comes to the fore: Public transport for its own sake

Strange, strange thing.

donvito99

Bambi wrote: »

Now we have seen a situation where we can do those things AND reduce our need to restructure the city to accomodate endless streams of buses, the real reason for the evangelism comes to the fore: Public transport for its own sake

Strange, strange thing.

Bambi, this pandemic is not just about WFH. Everything else has ceased. You cannot compare WFH with a global pandemic and say that public transport improvements like Bus Connects are not required.