BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Hotblack Desiato

bk wrote: »

As an aside, about noise from buses being slightly closer to homes, this likely could be easily dealt with by the NTA paying for extra sound insulation, triple glazed windows and perhaps new walls/trees/bushes.

Yeah. Anyway buses are getting quieter, engine sizes for the same application are going down in the interest of fuel economy, turbocharging extracts a lot of energy (aka noise) out of the exhaust, and hybrid buses should be quieter again.

cgcsb

bk wrote: »

I took a look at the Swords Corridor, the A Spine, it looks pretty good. I don't see much there that would block it, looks like an easy one overall.

There is some land take, but mostly it seems to be from institutions, rather then gardens. Like a very small bit of a field in front of Plunkett College. I don't think any of those will complain about getting money for a bit of grass that is pretty worthless to them anyway. This will likely be similar to the land take that was done with DCU across from the CAT & Cage in Drumcondra which was very successful.

The only mildly controversial bit would be perhaps the one way street in Santry by the Omni Shopping Center. But overall, it should be a good enhancement, with not much in the way of major issues.

As an aside, about noise from buses being slightly closer to homes, this likely could be easily dealt with by the NTA paying for extra sound insulation, triple glazed windows and perhaps new walls/trees/bushes.

This isn't new, my parents got some nice upgrades like the above when a busy new road was built close to them. It is now actually quieter then before!

With more and more hybrid and electric buses going forward, this problem would solve it's self.

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Taxis are the bogey though.

ban them from those streets if there are still serious delays.

tom1ie

Agree taxis need to be seriously curtailed I when it comes to using bus lanes.
On a separate note, is anyone not seriously concerned about the bus stop set down areas being in line with the qbc’s? On an at least 4 min frequency this is going to lead to serious bunching, even with (hopefully) reduced dwell time due to improved ticketing etc. if we are going to build proper spine routes then let’s build them to the best possible design.
All the designs I’ve seen so far are in line bus stops? It’s kinda like building a motorway around Dublin with 2 lanes in either direction and roundabout junctions, then realizing we should have built to the same standard as elsewhere in Europe when we had the chance and we were in the middle of c.p.o’ing anyway:eek:

markpb

Stephen15 wrote: »

The problem with that I would see is buses are effectively trapped in the bus lane and can't overtake one another if one is at stop (unless stops are in off the road) or a bus is broken down then the bus can't go out into the general traffic lane to overtake or a taxi is doing a pick up/ drop off.

Low profile kerbs can be mounted by buses if there's a prolonged problem. Flappy wands are even better but much uglier.

I think the best solution is cameras which can recognise the reg of the offender and a €100 fine and 2 or 3 penalty points in the post. No Gardai needed.

Any solution in Ireland that relies on enforcement by anyone is doomed to failure.

bk

tom1ie wrote: »

Agree taxis need to be seriously curtailed I when it comes to using bus lanes.
On a separate note, is anyone not seriously concerned about the bus stop set down areas being in line with the qbc’s? On an at least 4 min frequency this is going to lead to serious bunching, even with (hopefully) reduced dwell time due to improved ticketing etc. if we are going to build proper spine routes then let’s build them to the best possible design.
All the designs I’ve seen so far are in line bus stops? It’s kinda like building a motorway around Dublin with 2 lanes in either direction and roundabout junctions, then realizing we should have built to the same standard as elsewhere in Europe when we had the chance and we were in the middle of c.p.o’ing anyway:eek:

From the route I looked at, they have certainly made the effort to put offline bus stops where reasonably possible, including using CPO's to do that.

Where they haven't are places where their simply isn't any reasonable space to do so. I'm thinking of places where you have buildings built up to the edge of the road/path on both sides and no gardens. You'd have to CPO hundreds of buildings, many historic (maybe listed) to do that, I just don't see that being possible unfortunately. Even most of mainland Europe wouldn't knock buildings like those.

Having said that, while not ideal, inline stops like this don't actually delay buses by that much I find. The much more significant win is getting rid of major pinch point like the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra previously or widening bridges to come, along with banning left turns and separating cyclists out of bus lanes and making bus lanes wide enough. Inline versus offline are the least impactful of these IMO.

Also the 90 minute ticket, eventual elimination of cash and most driver interaction and proper use of dual doors should hopefully reduce dwell times anyway.

Dyr

punisher5112 wrote: »

This isn't enough....

These changes are needed now not in nearly 10 years.


So much could be done right now and be extremely easy such as enforcement of traffic laws and treat buses like the luas and give priority and get people to actually respect the drivers and let buses out.

It needs to be made a legal requirement to allow a bus indicating out.

Enforce bus lane use and yellow box junction use.

If they sorted new ticket machines and fares tomorrow buses would be even quicker straight away.

Enforce bus stop use and create 24 hour bus lanes in and close to the city.

More people are cycling then ever so this business of allowing parking after 7pm etc in major roads into the city should be stopped.

Designate delivery times and create safe places for delivery drivers to actually park and not allow everyone park wherever they like.

We need to be painting active bus stop markings yellow to make them stand out, double red lines like the UK where it's not permitted to stop for any reason including taxi pick up or drop off.

Anpr/CCTV to catch bus lane users including use of bus gate and contra flow bus lanes etc.

It's actually shocking what disrespect people have towards bus drivers and how hard a job we have already.

The fact that none of these things have been implemented will tell you how government dept like to operate. Widening roads and chopping down trees is an expensive one off flagship project. All the low level bread and butter measures you suggest require on going effort, competence and coordination between multiple bodies.

Sam Russell

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Gardens on the Bray Road in Foxrock were cpo'd back in the day for the widening of the road. But I think big walls were build for the houses as part of the deal.

If you choose to live on a road that is busy and has buses going outside your door, well it is never going to be quiet like a cul de sac. And the chances are there will be changes.

Can home owners block a CPO anyway? The word "compulsory" is staring out at me.

I suppose if the pay off is good enough they might comply, but afaik there are rules for valuing cpo land.

In Bray Road case the owners had the option to agree to sell and specify works like high walls or compete for CPO compo and get no works. Most went for the former.

Monokne

Got a letter in the door today related to the affect this will have locally for me. Apparently it will make Santry village one way - anyone have any information on this, or a map?

jd

Monokne wrote: »

Got a letter in the door today related to the affect this will have locally for me. Apparently it will make Santry village one way - anyone have any information on this, or a map?

This is from the bus connects brochure (on the web site)
North bound traffic only on Swords Rd south of the Omni.

Monokne

Thanks my man.

That actually would not affect me too much. I'm still not for it, however.

blah

Monokne wrote: »

Thanks my man.

That actually would not affect me too much. I'm still not for it, however.

Do you think there is a better alternative?

Monokne

Leaving things as they are.

CatInABox

Monokne wrote: »

Leaving things as they are.

In terms of moving people and dependence on car transport, that's not better.

Monokne

Buses go through Santry as things are.

Brian CivilEng

Monokne wrote: »

Buses go through Santry as things are.

I get a bus across from the Swiss Cottage every morning. Buses get stuck in Santry as things are. I've watched my bus stuck for 2mins as it waited behind a car turning right across two lanes of traffic. This is a problem.

On the bus there were approx 60 people (I counted that morning, to prove a point to myself). The equivalent of 45 or so cars. Traffic is only going to grow, the situation is only going to get worse if it isn't changed.

RayCun

Monokne wrote: »

Buses go through Santry as things are.

Buses share a lane with cars as things are, causing delays.

Buses will continue to go through Santry, but there will be a bus-only lane in each direction, making them faster.

punisher5112

Electric bikes, scooters and cars need a big push.

I can't understand the amount I see daily in a car sitting in non moving traffic and there is so many alternatives to make it quicker.

Mopeds and motorbike users in London for example is high and is a big help to getting around and also cutting down on congestion and time saved not stuck in traffic.

Dart and luas need to be super fast and are far from it.

Buses as I've mentioned and many others need fixing now not in nearly 10 years.

Monokne

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I get a bus across from the Swiss Cottage every morning. Buses get stuck in Santry as things are. I've watched my bus stuck for 2mins as it waited behind a car turning right across two lanes of traffic. This is a problem.

On the bus there were approx 60 people (I counted that morning, to prove a point to myself). The equivalent of 45 or so cars. Traffic is only going to grow, the situation is only going to get worse if it isn't changed.

Yes, this is a good point well made. Several thousand people would benefit from this change.

I also believe several thousand would be substantially inconvenienced by it.

To me the negative impact to those who live locally is greater than the positive impact for those commuting, and the volume of people negatively affected is likely greater than the volume of people positively affected. Ergo, I would not advocate for it.

If you disagree, that's cool, I can see it's not a black and white thing and there are clearly arguments on both sides.

NeitherJohn

Monokne wrote: »

Yes, this is a good point well made. Several thousand people would benefit from this change.

I also believe several thousand would be substantially inconvenienced by it.

To me the negative impact to those who live locally is greater than the positive impact for those commuting, and the volume of people negatively affected is likely greater than the volume of people positively affected. Ergo, I would not advocate for it.

If you disagree, that's cool, I can see it's not a black and white thing and there are clearly arguments on both sides.

But what is the negative effect? If more people can get to work or school or third-level, is that not better?

Brian CivilEng

Monokne wrote: »

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I get a bus across from the Swiss Cottage every morning. Buses get stuck in Santry as things are. I've watched my bus stuck for 2mins as it waited behind a car turning right across two lanes of traffic. This is a problem.

On the bus there were approx 60 people (I counted that morning, to prove a point to myself). The equivalent of 45 or so cars. Traffic is only going to grow, the situation is only going to get worse if it isn't changed.

Yes, this is a good point well made. Several thousand people would benefit from this change.

I also believe several thousand would be substantially inconvenienced by it.

To me the negative impact to those who live locally is greater than the positive impact for those commuting, and the volume of people negatively affected is likely greater than the volume of people positively affected. Ergo, I would not advocate for it.

If you disagree, that's cool, I can see it's not a black and white thing and there are clearly arguments on both sides.

Don't you just hate it when people disagree with you on the Internet in a calm and polite manner.

If you disagree with what has been proposed, then let the NTA know. After all this drawing has been released for the purpose of public consultation.

I for one think that the one way system is a reasonable compromise.

Podge_irl

Monokne wrote: »

Yes, this is a good point well made. Several thousand people would benefit from this change.

I also believe several thousand would be substantially inconvenienced by it.

To me the negative impact to those who live locally is greater than the positive impact for those commuting, and the volume of people negatively affected is likely greater than the volume of people positively affected. Ergo, I would not advocate for it.

If you disagree, that's cool, I can see it's not a black and white thing and there are clearly arguments on both sides.

Where do you get the equivalent several thousand? I think you have a misjudged view of how many car commuters live in the affected area and I think this is the common problem. Several thousand people do not even live in the area of the new one-way road, never mind are even car commuters in the affected area.

Is it an inconvenience for several hundred people? Yeah, definitely. However the negative impact locally will be part of a system improving their publish transport into town so it is not like they are nothing but losers in this system.

TheChrisD

Monokne wrote: »

I also believe several thousand would be substantially inconvenienced by it.

To me the negative impact to those who live locally is greater than the positive impact for those commuting, and the volume of people negatively affected is likely greater than the volume of people positively affected. Ergo, I would not advocate for it.

I find that hard to fathom, especially since it's only a small portion of road being made one-way and a similarly small portion of journeys that would be impacted.

City commuters who normally turn right from the Shanowen Road have plenty of other ways around. Shoppers in Omni who normally go south can either divert through Shanliss if local, or take the N1 if in Larkfield and the like. Anyone coming from Santry Avenue should already be going via the N1.

CatInABox

I think that turning that road one way will cause a lot of sound and fury for a week, and then it'll die off except for a few die-hards. Once people start experiencing faster commutes into the city without a significant increase in their commute home, people will start to love it.

Qrt

CatInABox wrote: »

I think that turning that road one way will cause a lot of sound and fury for a week, and then it'll die off except for a few die-hards. Once people start experiencing faster commutes into the city without a significant increase in their commute home, people will start to love it.

I've never understood the outrage with one way systems, it adds a fractional amount of time to journeys. Imagine Clondalkin village without the one way system!

Monokne

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Don't you just hate it when people disagree with you on the Internet in a calm and polite manner.

If you disagree with what has been proposed, then let the NTA know. After all this drawing has been released for the purpose of public consultation.

I for one think that the one way system is a reasonable compromise.

Nothing infuriates me more. :cool:

cgcsb

Monokne wrote: »

the volume of people negatively affected is likely greater than the volume of people positively affected

How would you estimate that out of curiosity? I'm just wondering because the number of Swords/Airport-City Centre commuters for example would be quite large.

howiya

Are there any infrastructure works planned for roads other than the main spines?

cgcsb

howiya wrote: »

Are there any infrastructure works planned for roads other than the main spines?

Great question. Particularly regarding the orbital routes, especially the O bus. The current 46a is often heavily delayed around phibsboro, you can often see three buses at once and not another one for a half hour.

Qrt

cgcsb wrote: »

Great question. Particularly regarding the orbital routes, especially the O bus. The current 46a is often heavily delayed around phibsboro, you can often see three buses at once and not another one for a half hour.

My guess would be no, considering there's the distant plans for orbital core route corridors. It seems like a big problem looming, especially when places like J12 are due to be used a fair bit...