BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

Zebra3

Remembering talking to a bloke from London a few years ago.

His opinion was that a lot of the reasoning behind hosting the Olympics was to fast track infrastructural projects.

cgcsb

Zebra3 wrote: »

Remembering talking to a bloke from London a few years ago.

His opinion was that a lot of the reasoning behind hosting the Olympics was to fast track infrastructural projects.

Even in the UK, a more authoritarian society than Ireland, the moaning can be so frustrating.

Hurrache

cgcsb wrote: »

the moaning can be so frustrating.

Seems like you'd be happier living in a dictatorial society.

cgcsb

Hurrache wrote: »

Seems like you'd be happier living in a dictatorial society.

Dictatorships have their advantages over democracy in some aspects. See Brexit for an example of how democracy fails spectacularly. The reality is that not everybody is bright and forward thinking, despite free education and free access to the sum of human knowledge through the internet. I'd advocate a sort of a hybrid technocratic society that'd be peaceful and somewhat democratic but it wouldn't give equal consideration to the opinion of daily mail readers and the like. Social media has given us the notion that everyone's opinion is equal, when plainly that is not true. Alas this is way beyond the scope of this thread.

CatInABox

cgcsb wrote: »

Dictatorships have their advantages over democracy in some aspects. See Brexit for an example of how democracy fails spectacularly. The reality is that not everybody is bright and forward thinking, despite free education and free access to the sum of human knowledge through the internet. I'd advocate a sort of a hybrid technocratic society that'd be peaceful and somewhat democratic but it wouldn't give equal consideration to the opinion of daily mail readers and the like. Social media has given us the notion that everyone's opinion is equal, when plainly that is not true. Alas this is way beyond the scope of this thread.

I was going to respond, but that'd just drag the thread even further off topic.

As it is, I'm quite impressed with the work that the NTA have put in on this, they seem to be learning from their mistakes with other projects/consultations, which I think bodes well.

n!ghtmancometh

Without the infrastructure in place the people losing direct city routes are being really screwed, as the routes for them to change over to will still be bunched and unpredictable due to the current crap traffic situation. Absolute shambles.

Saw an article in the indo with some lad who lives in a massive house with massive garden on the Navan Road complaining that when they take a bit of that massive garden it will be like living on the M50, and how him and all his neighbours will be opposing the proposals.

Never going to be built in other words.

Qrt

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/it-will-be-like-living-on-the-m50-residents-set-to-lose-gardens-to-bus-lanes-struggle-to-see-beyond-the-negatives-37530419.html

This is the worst thing I've ever seen.

cherryghost

Did they handpick people living in the greater dublin area with large gardens?!

As it is, I'm quite impressed with the work that the NTA have put in on this, they seem to be learning from their mistakes with other projects/consultations, which I think bodes well.

Sorry but a 10 year plan that might fall through within 3 years is not good enough. The situation is beyond critical in many places.

Spanish Eyes

I do hope NTA do the so called "easy" spines first. Lucan to CC seems need very little CPO, but I do realise that junctions and so on will take time. Still, it might be good for commuters to see the advantages within a couple of years, rather than having to wait ten years, even if it is staggered. But maybe that's what they mean.

I am sorry I just gulped when I saw the timeline. Why does everything seem to take forever in this country, when it is for the common good?

We will all be staggering around waiting for this!

Spanish Eyes

Gardens on the Bray Road in Foxrock were cpo'd back in the day for the widening of the road. But I think big walls were build for the houses as part of the deal.

If you choose to live on a road that is busy and has buses going outside your door, well it is never going to be quiet like a cul de sac. And the chances are there will be changes.

Can home owners block a CPO anyway? The word "compulsory" is staring out at me.

I suppose if the pay off is good enough they might comply, but afaik there are rules for valuing cpo land.

sharper

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am sorry I just gulped when I saw the timeline. Why does everything seem to take forever in this country, when it is for the common good?

I honestly have a hard time fitting a 10 year timeline for this into my brain. When I think of 10 years and billions spent I imagine sleek bullet trains hovering over tracks going hundreds of miles per hour.

This plan would be fine if it started 10 years ago and was coming online now to meet current demand. Instead they're planning infrastructure now that would only be adequate for current demand.

What are projected traffic and transport levels for 2027? Are they going to wait until 2027 and then spend a few years thinking what's next and roll out the next plans in 2030 due to be finished by 2040?

Going by the official stats for residential units nearly 9000 commenced in 2018. I don't expect that number to drop off anytime soon so we're going to be adding thousands per year to the roads and transport network.

cgcsb

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am sorry I just gulped when I saw the timeline. Why does everything seem to take forever in this country, when it is for the common good?

We will all be staggering around waiting for this!

We have a hyper democratic system. It could be worse though, look at Switzerland.

Hotblack Desiato

Not so much hyper-democratic imho as anti-democratic. It's far too easy for a small number of people, or even a single individual, to block anything. Apple to Athenry anyone? Doesn't matter that a majority of people would be strongly in favour of a project.

In fairness the Malahide Road garden seen in that article is not huge, but they're probably only taking 1.5 metres or so on each side of the road. As for the Navan Road wan, my comments would be unprintable!

plodder

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Not so much hyper-democratic imho as anti-democratic. It's far too easy for a small number of people, or even a single individual, to block anything. Apple to Athenry anyone? Doesn't matter that a majority of people would be strongly in favour of a project.

In fairness the Malahide Road garden seen in that article is not huge, but they're probably only taking 1.5 metres or so on each side of the road. As for the Navan Road wan, my comments would be unprintable!

I think anyone is going to be a bit shocked when they find out that some part of their property is going to be CPO'd but I've seen far worse in the UK, like a semi-d house sliced in half, ie one of the houses removed completely and replaced with a road. The Navan Rd. one looks not bad at all. There does come a point though where maybe it makes more sense to CPO the whole house as you don't want to be so close to the traffic that you will hear it day and night.

CatInABox

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Can home owners block a CPO anyway? The word "compulsory" is staring out at me.

I suppose if the pay off is good enough they might comply, but afaik there are rules for valuing cpo land.

Once the NTA can prove that it's needed, then there's nothing that the owners can do about it.

As to the disappointment over the fact that it's going to take so long, I can definitely understand the frustration, I agree that all this stuff should have been done years ago, but the recession put everything back by ten years. That's not the NTAs fault. I'm raging at the government at the time that decided not to invest anything in Dublin infrastructure at the time.

sharper

CatInABox wrote: »

As to the disappointment over the fact that it's going to take so long, I can definitely understand the frustration, I agree that all this stuff should have been done years ago, but the recession put everything back by ten years. That's not the NTAs fault. I'm raging at the government at the time that decided not to invest anything in Dublin infrastructure at the time.

We are where we are and all that.

The problem I see is neither the government nor NTA seem to even acknowledge improvements are needed immediately. They should be looking at what can be done now and over the next year to improve things.

punisher5112's list of suggestions was excellent and they don't need 10 years(ish) to implement.

marno21

Qrt wrote: »

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/it-will-be-like-living-on-the-m50-residents-set-to-lose-gardens-to-bus-lanes-struggle-to-see-beyond-the-negatives-37530419.html

This is the worst thing I've ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8AIh2qoSnM

CatInABox

sharper wrote: »

punisher5112's list of suggestions was excellent and they don't need 10 years(ish) to implement.

They were excellent, and some of them are already in the pipeline. Enforcement is a major issue though, wish the Gov would get the finger out on that one.

Hotblack Desiato

CatInABox wrote: »

I'm raging at the government at the time that decided not to invest anything in Dublin infrastructure at the time.

They were fine with building a motorway in the middle of nowhere though :rolleyes:

cgcsb

What could be done now/next week:

ban cars from the north quays, George's St and College Green with gardai enforcement every rush hour for the next 14 days, including issuance of fines.

watch bus journey times plummit and then take steps to make those changes permanent, cameras and new lane layout, build liffey cycle way etc.

bk

I took a look at the Swords Corridor, the A Spine, it looks pretty good. I don't see much there that would block it, looks like an easy one overall.

There is some land take, but mostly it seems to be from institutions, rather then gardens. Like a very small bit of a field in front of Plunkett College. I don't think any of those will complain about getting money for a bit of grass that is pretty worthless to them anyway. This will likely be similar to the land take that was done with DCU across from the CAT & Cage in Drumcondra which was very successful.

The only mildly controversial bit would be perhaps the one way street in Santry by the Omni Shopping Center. But overall, it should be a good enhancement, with not much in the way of major issues.

As an aside, about noise from buses being slightly closer to homes, this likely could be easily dealt with by the NTA paying for extra sound insulation, triple glazed windows and perhaps new walls/trees/bushes.

This isn't new, my parents got some nice upgrades like the above when a busy new road was built close to them. It is now actually quieter then before!

Spanish Eyes

cgcsb wrote: »

What could be done now/next week:

ban cars from the north quays, George's St and College Green with gardai enforcement every rush hour for the next 14 days, including issuance of fines.

watch bus journey times plummit and then take steps to make those changes permanent, cameras and new lane layout, build liffey cycle way etc.

Taxis are the bogey though.

bk

So looking at the Swords route again, I don't see anything overly controversial.

I see max of about 10 houses that might lose a bit of a "garden". Having looked at them all on Google Maps, they all have very large "gardens", most of them aren't actually gardens, more like car parking and I didn't see any where you couldn't park less then 6 cars. I also didn't see any that would need to lose more then a meter or so of space. So I'm sure they will complain, but I won't be feeling sorry for any of those.

The vast majority of space taken is from sporting clubs and educational facilities, like Homefarm Road (again), but in all cases, I don't think it would actually really impact them, all their playing fields and buildings look to be a good 10 to 20 meters behind the walls. So a meter or two shouldn't be a big deal IMO.

Likewise, a good few others seem to be warehouses and business, but they are just losing a very small bit of car parking space. Doesn't look like a big deal for any of them from what I can see.

Interestingly one warehouse is to be knocked, but it looks like a terrible old almost derelict building, so I assume no great lose.

The only major opposition I could see would be to the one way system near the Omni Shopping Center and perhaps a couple of new "no left turns" on the North Circular Road/Gardiner St, etc.

Oh and lost trees along the road in Drumcondra, people won't be happy about that. I expect more rubbish like in Fairview.

Cyclepaths look largely good. One weird one is that there is no cycle path to the Omni shopping center from the south, you have to make a big detour around to the north of the shopping center using official cycle paths. I'd assume most cyclists won't do this if heading to the Omni and instead will just share the road with the buses. Not ideal, but only a couple hundred meters or so.

Also I spotted a few other locations where I felt they could have made a bit more effort for the cycle path to go behind the bus stop rather then inline with it.

I'd also be concerned on how the cycle paths will be separated from the road. Will they actually be separate from the road, higher up or just on the road or perhaps use bollards to separate the cycle path from the road.

The new section in front of the Cat & Cage in Drumcondra shows both good design and bad design. Going South towards the city, it is just a line drawn on the road, no separation and thus doesn't feel safe. On the other side, going north from the city, there are bollards separating the cycle path from the road and it feels much safer.

But overall I think this particular route looks good. I think they are major improvements in bus journey time, cyclist safety and pedestrian safety here, while I don't think it should face too many objections.

punisher5112

Cyclists shouldn't be able to access anywhere where a bus has to pull in.

hmmm

On the Lucan route, I notice they are turning one of the general traffic lanes into a buslane - that's going to have interesting knock-on effects.

Absolutely needed for PT however as it is a major slowdown.

Qrt

bk wrote: »

I'd also be concerned on how the cycle paths will be separated from the road. Will they actually be separate from the road, higher up or just on the road or perhaps use bollards to separate the cycle path from the road.

They seem to be going with the Tallaght Village style of path, it's quite good looking to me (albeit a few hiccups). It's actually the photograph that's used within the reports of the bus stop and the bus stop bypass with the person on the bike to the right.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2889137,-6.3483872,3a,75y,296.23h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXE6um1AYCznvlWtEZuX0Kw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It seems to be how it's done in Copenhagen, though their paths are a bit wider. Drumcondra is proposed to have basically no bus stop bypasses, and that's really not on at all. Buses and bikes don't mix. Lots of the junctions on the routes are just extremely busy too, they need more segregation.

bk

Qrt wrote: »

They seem to be going with the Tallaght Village style of path, it's quite good looking to me (albeit a few hiccups). It's actually the photograph that's used within the reports of the bus stop and the bus stop bypass with the person on the bike to the right.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2889137,-6.3483872,3a,75y,296.23h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sXE6um1AYCznvlWtEZuX0Kw!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

It seems to be how it's done in Copenhagen, though their paths are a bit wider. Drumcondra is proposed to have basically no bus stop bypasses, and that's really not on at all. Buses and bikes don't mix. Lots of the junctions on the routes are just extremely busy too, they need more segregation.

Thanks, that does look decent. It looks enough like the road to maybe keep most pedestrians off it, yet slightly higher and a bump that would hopefully keep most cars and buses off it. The bus stop looks good on the island with the bike path around it. Enough space for people to stand and the bike path different enough that it might be enough to keep most people off it.

Further up the Swords road has lots of bus stop bypasses, but yes, basically from roughly the Ivy House in, they start to run out of space to bypass the bus stops. A pity as that is where a large number of different very busy routes start converging. Realistically I'm not sure how much you could do about it, beyond reducing general traffic to one lane and one way. There are houses and shops right up to the street on both sides, no front gardens around those parts.

Spanish Eyes

Will the bus lanes be segregated from encroachment by cars, i.e. a concrete lip/divider between the bus lane and general traffic?

Might help with lack of enforcement which is just so obvious at the moment.

Because the current bus lanes are just marked, cars often encroach, well a lot do. Just wondered if the design features might include this type of segregation.

Stephen15

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Will the bus lanes be segregated from encroachment by cars, i.e. a concrete lip/divider between the bus lane and general traffic?

Might help with lack of enforcement which is just so obvious at the moment.

Because the current bus lanes are just marked, cars often encroach, well a lot do. Just wondered if the design features might include this type of segregation.

The problem with that I would see is buses are effectively trapped in the bus lane and can't overtake one another if one is at stop (unless stops are in off the road) or a bus is broken down then the bus can't go out into the general traffic lane to overtake or a taxi is doing a pick up/ drop off.

I think the best solution is cameras which can recognise the reg of the offender and a €100 fine and 2 or 3 penalty points in the post. No Gardai needed.

Qrt

bk wrote: »

Thanks, that does look decent. It looks enough like the road to maybe keep most pedestrians off it, yet slightly higher and a bump that would hopefully keep most cars and buses off it. The bus stop looks good on the island with the bike path around it. Enough space for people to stand and the bike path different enough that it might be enough to keep most people off it.

Tbh it's the only piece of cycling infrastructure SDCC can be reasonably commended for, they've opted for shared-space for the new Knocklyon section of the Tallaght-Ballyboden scheme. Not ideal, but the low pedestrian numbers should help.