BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

CatInABox

tom1ie wrote: »

What about the radial routes with qbc’s that are to be built under the bc infrastructure plan?
These will give a much more accurate frequency of busses as they will segregate busses from cars. Of course they’ll make a difference to journey times.

The radial (and orbital) bus corridors will be great, but they are not necessary for the BusConnects reorganisation. The new network is designed to improve journey time by increasing frequency, and the only infrastructure needed to do that is the interchanges.

That's why you can see the improved times on the BusConnects web calculator, which is done without any infrastructure improvements.


As an aside, I think the construction of the radials would actually lessen support for BusConnects rather than increase it. A lot of people would see the decrease in journey times and wonder why they need a reorg as well. Of course, it would just be delaying the inevitable, the lack of space in the city centre is what BusConnects is designed to relieve, and the radials actually have the potential to make things worse in that case, with buses flying into the city centre, but not able to leave it on time due to extra congestion.

sharper

devnull wrote: »

I know many people at the moment who get a bus at a particular time and are at work 20+ minutes before they need to be, because of the fact that the later bus means that they will be late. I also know people who have to hang around for a while after work for a bus for the same reason.

That's a good point and for me it works out because what I lose in a less direct less frequent X service I gain in a more direct more frequent regular service.

sharper

CatInABox wrote: »

The radial (and orbital) bus corridors will be great, but they are not necessary for the BusConnects reorganisation. The new network is designed to improve journey time by increasing frequency, and the only infrastructure needed to do that is the interchanges.

Interchange also needs reasonably predictable and consistent timings otherwise people will be constantly missing their connection and having to wait for the next one.

A lot of bus routes are being changed to create the spines, the traffic on those will be a total nightmare without changes.

CatInABox

sharper wrote: »

Interchange also needs reasonably predictable and consistent timings otherwise people will be constantly missing their connection and having to wait for the next one.

A lot of bus routes are being changed to create the spines, the traffic on those will be a total nightmare without changes.

The interchange hubs are the only infrastructure that needs to be there on day one.

Which spines will be a total nightmare with an increased frequency of buses? Those roads that are earmarked for spines almost all have plenty of buses already running on them, so we know that they currently work. Adding extra buses onto those roads isn't going to cause traffic chaos.

john boye

devnull wrote: »

I know many people at the moment who get a bus at a particular time and are at work 20+ minutes before they need to be, because of the fact that the later bus means that they will be late. I also know people who have to hang around for a while after work for a bus for the same reason.

With a more frequent service you have less time waiting around, which while it may not improve the time the journey actually takes, it will mean the time from leaving home to starting work as well as finishing work and arriving home, will be less, which could mean and extra 20-30 minutes of sleep in the morning and an extra 20-30 minutes with the kids at night.

That's exactly why I had to give up on the bus for work. Trying to be in town for 830 was a lottery and I had to get a bus at all hours and often had 40 minutes to kill in town. A much more direct route to town (like the one proposed for my route and many other routes in BC) would be a godsend.

sharper

CatInABox wrote: »

Which spines will be a total nightmare with an increased frequency of buses? Those roads that are earmarked for spines almost all have plenty of buses already running on them, so we know that they currently work. Adding extra buses onto those roads isn't going to cause traffic chaos.

The C spine is supposed to be running a bus every few minutes through Liffey Valley. Without the works at the M50 interchange you're going to have a queue of busses.

Remember that interchange relies on you going from a more frequent to a less frequent service as you move outwards. People will get very angry very quickly if they end up stuck at interchanges when going home. They need to be able to predict their journey and be sure they won't have to wait long.

The existing bus service doesn't run to schedule, there's no chance bus connects will either and it's even more reliant on doing so.

OscarMIlde

L1011 wrote: »

They are proposing a bus between West Leixlip and Celbridge out to Hazelhatch also but it doesn't serve the 66b route.

It and the Maynooth-Tallaght route do add huge connectivity to Celbridge but unless the 67 is given equivalent service to now its not a net gain. There needs to be as many of the expresses as the 67X and they need to have the current or higher off-peak frequency as they are proposing to reduce it from the usual 30min clockface to 40min or 60min at times

I didn't realise it was that bad, I don't understand why Celbridge is consistently given such short shrift. The 67 is abysmal at keeping to schedule as is.

CatInABox

sharper wrote: »

The C spine is supposed to be running a bus every few minutes through Liffey Valley. Without the works at the M50 interchange you're going to have a queue of busses.

Yeah, that's why I said "the interchange hubs are the only infrastructure that needs to be there on day one".

L1011

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I didn't realise it was that bad, I don't understand why Celbridge is consistently given such short shrift. The 67 is abysmal at keeping to schedule as is.

The timetable improvement a few years ago for the 67 was a huge jump in service off-peak; since then it has effectively been ignored. They built it and people came and the service is now heavily used (whereas when it was a bus ever 75 minutes or so, it wasn't) so I find the abandonment very odd.

MJohnston

Celbridge is going from:

• 67 with a 30 minute all-day frequency (which actually starts from Maynooth). This route goes through Lucan and Chapelizod.
• 67x with 6 separate services between 7 and 8am. This route bypasses Lucan and Chapelizod, but goes all the way down the Quays and through College Green.
• A commuter train station that isn't connected to the town and would require a second fare if you need to transfer to a bus or Luas further in the journey.

To the following under BusConnects:

• C4 with a 10 minute peak time frequency, and a 20-26 minute off-peak frequency. This route goes through Lucan, but bypasses Chapelizod, so that's about a 15 minute journey time saving.
• C4 is also dedicated entirely to Celbridge, so won't be full of Maynooth passengers before getting to the town.
• 324 with 3 services between 7 and 8am. This route goes through Lucan, but bypasses Chapelizod, avoids part of the quays and skips College Green. I think journey times will be about 10 minutes slower, but it's hard to say how much that inner-city route change will benefit things.
• 259 (or 245, unsure on the number) with a 30 minute all-day frequency that connects to both Leixlip Confey station and Hazelhatch station.
• W8 orbital with a 30 minute all-day frequency that also does that.
• W8 orbital also provides a new connection to Tallaght and Citywest, and the many jobs there.
• Additionally that connection with the train lines could become more affordable, as they would hypothetically be part of the flat-fare zone.

OscarMIlde

MJohnston wrote: »

Celbridge is going from:

• 67 with a 30 minute all-day frequency (which actually starts from Maynooth). This route goes through Lucan and Chapelizod.
• 67x with 6 separate services between 7 and 8am. This route bypasses Lucan and Chapelizod, but goes all the way down the Quays and through College Green.
• A commuter train station that isn't connected to the town and would require a second fare if you need to transfer to a bus or Luas further in the journey.

To the following under BusConnects:

• C4 with a 10 minute peak time frequency, and a 20-26 minute off-peak frequency. This route goes through Lucan, but bypasses Chapelizod, so that's about a 15 minute journey time saving.
• C4 is also dedicated entirely to Celbridge, so won't be full of Maynooth passengers before getting to the town.
• 324 with 3 services between 7 and 8am. This route goes through Lucan, but bypasses Chapelizod, avoids part of the quays and skips College Green. I think journey times will be about 10 minutes slower, but it's hard to say how much that inner-city route change will benefit things.
• 259 (or 245, unsure on the number) with a 30 minute all-day frequency that connects to both Leixlip Confey station and Hazelhatch station.
• W8 orbital with a 30 minute all-day frequency that also does that.
• W8 orbital also provides a new connection to Tallaght and Citywest, and the many jobs there.
• Additionally that connection with the train lines could become more affordable, as they would hypothetically be part of the flat-fare zone.

The C4 is going to route through Leixlip, negating any gains by bypassing Chapelizod.

The other thing is bus connects touts a 10 minute peak time frequency for this bus. Any benefits depends on what is defined as peak time. From looking at other routes it seems to be between 7 and 8 in the morning. If that is the case than Celbridge will have less morning buses than currently AND they will take a longer route.

The hazelhatch train is generally full as is the Maynooth line. Unless Irish rail find a solution to the capacity issues at Connolly loading people to a train won't improve matters. I also don't understand why the 295 is bringing people to confey. Surely Louisa bridge with it's proximity to Intel makes more sense?

Also none of these plans have taken into account the amount of land rezoned for housing in the Celbridge/Leixlip/Maynooth area. Commuter numbers will dramatically increase in the next few years and plans need to be in place to prevent traffic mayhem in these towns.

OscarMIlde

L1011 wrote: »

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I didn't realise it was that bad, I don't understand why Celbridge is consistently given such short shrift. The 67 is abysmal at keeping to schedule as is.

The timetable improvement a few years ago for the 67 was a huge jump in service off-peak; since then it has effectively been ignored. They built it and people came and the service is now heavily used (whereas when it was a bus ever 75 minutes or so, it wasn't) so I find the abandonment very odd.

I'd say it's one of the most used services. There have been many times off peak in the evenings I have been unable to board at Westmoreland street as it is already full. Even three buses an hour off peak would be a massive help and mitigate the fact that it is often obscenely (15-20mins) late outbound due to inbound traffic.

ThunbergsAreGo

OscarMIlde wrote: »

Also none of these plans have taken into account the amount of land rezoned for housing in the Celbridge/Leixlip/Maynooth area. Commuter numbers will dramatically increase in the next few years and plans need to be in place to prevent traffic mayhem in these towns.

It's the same in North Dublin, no real way to increase rail capacity and no direct buses to town (from North of Swords) proposed by BC

Hopefully we see an increase in the areas served by private operators if BC goes ahead

IvySlayer

I never get the 67/67x as they are guaranteed to be jam packed!

25/66/a/b/67 and the 3 Xs replaced by 2 routes, hopefully won't be a disaster.

OscarMIlde

naughtb4 wrote: »

OscarMIlde wrote: »

Also none of these plans have taken into account the amount of land rezoned for housing in the Celbridge/Leixlip/Maynooth area. Commuter numbers will dramatically increase in the next few years and plans need to be in place to prevent traffic mayhem in these towns.

It's the same in North Dublin, no real way to increase rail capacity and no direct buses to town (from North of Swords) proposed by BC

Hopefully we see an increase in the areas served by private operators if BC goes ahead

I think there was an idealogical commitment to foisting people in these areas onto 'increased rail services' because it allows them to move buses to other areas. It conveniently ignores the fact that Irish rail are struggling to accomodate the multiple intercity and commuter lines that route through Connolly as is. It's really disappointing that there is a chance to improve the lot of many commuters and they chose not to.

RayCun

CatInABox wrote: »

The interchange hubs are the only infrastructure that needs to be there on day one.

Which spines will be a total nightmare with an increased frequency of buses? Those roads that are earmarked for spines almost all have plenty of buses already running on them, so we know that they currently work. Adding extra buses onto those roads isn't going to cause traffic chaos.

The spines have plenty of buses already, that are stuck in traffic along their routes. You need to have both increased frequency and reduced journey time, and that means infrastructure changes.

sharper

CatInABox wrote: »

Yeah, that's why I said "the interchange hubs are the only infrastructure that needs to be there on day one".

Sorry I'm talking about the works at the m50 junction, not the interchange. Building an interchange at Liffey Valley right now will just be somewhere for busses to queue while they try to merge back out into traffic.

ThunbergsAreGo

sharper wrote: »

Sorry I'm talking about the works at the m50 junction, not the interchange. Building an interchange at Liffey Valley right now will just be somewhere for busses to queue while they try to merge back out into traffic.

Without changes to the route, the Swords Spine would be pretty much unfeasible at all as a way of commuting to town

Anyone I know from Swords commutes using the Swords Express

sharper

OscarMIlde wrote: »

The other thing is bus connects touts a 10 minute peak time frequency for this bus. Any benefits depends on what is defined as peak time. From looking at other routes it seems to be between 7 and 8 in the morning. If that is the case than Celbridge will have less morning buses than currently AND they will take a longer route.

You can find an hourly breakdown of frequency starting on page 139 of Chapter 7

C3 and C4 will have 10 minute frequency on weekdays at 7-9am and 3-6pm. That's a reasonably significant increase from existing frequency.

Current Sunday frequency for the 67 is every 30 minutes, this drops to one per hour under bus connects.

tom1ie

CatInABox wrote: »

The radial (and orbital) bus corridors will be great, but they are not necessary for the BusConnects reorganisation. The new network is designed to improve journey time by increasing frequency, and the only infrastructure needed to do that is the interchanges.

That's why you can see the improved times on the BusConnects web calculator, which is done without any infrastructure improvements.


As an aside, I think the construction of the radials would actually lessen support for BusConnects rather than increase it. A lot of people would see the decrease in journey times and wonder why they need a reorg as well. Of course, it would just be delaying the inevitable, the lack of space in the city centre is what BusConnects is designed to relieve, and the radials actually have the potential to make things worse in that case, with buses flying into the city centre, but not able to leave it on time due to extra congestion.

I’m sorry but your wrong. If you put more busses on a road that shares that road space with cars, what happens? It gets stuck in traffic. The people on the bus don’t see any benefit to being stuck on a bus with other people so they might aswell be stuck in traffic in their own car, and that’s what happens.
The qbc’s are the fundamental to bc.
They are the single most important piece of infrastructure.
Unless busses get proper qbc’s to drive in, what is the point?
Without the qbc’s no one is going to change over to busses as the journey times will b too long, erratic and won’t have enough capacity.
Over simplified analogy:
If you have a 1 inch pipe and you throw 100 litres of water down the pipe it takes x amount of time to come out the other end of the pipe.
If you have a 2 inch pipe and you throw 100 litres of water down the pipe it takes x/2 amount of time to come out the other end of the pipe.
Wider roads with dedicated qbc’s= faster busses which equals more capacity which equals more frequency which equals more dependability which equals more people leaving the car at home which leads to a positive knock on effect for traffic in general.

MJohnston

The C4 is going to route through Leixlip, negating any gains by bypassing Chapelizod.

It wouldn't negate those gains, the Chapelizod detour is much slower and longer, but point taken, the journey time reduction for the C4 compared to the 67 would be more like 7/8 minutes then (this is before considering the BusConnects infrastructure changes which, among other things, aim to reduce journey times in the city centre even further).

The other thing is bus connects touts a 10 minute peak time frequency for this bus. Any benefits depends on what is defined as peak time. From looking at other routes it seems to be between 7 and 8 in the morning. If that is the case than Celbridge will have less morning buses than currently AND they will take a longer route.

No, that's incorrect. You don't need to guess, there's a "Proposed Frequencies" section in the full report. C4 will run at a 10 minute frequency between 7 and 9am, and then in the evening (from Ringsend) between 3pm and 6pm.

I'm not sure what you mean in the second part of this bit though. Are you talking solely about the 67x? The 67x runs only from 7am to 8am, and there are 9 individual buses. Between 7am and 9am there are six 67s leaving from Maynooth. That's a total of 15 buses - and I'll note that a lot of those buses leave Celbridge at the exact same time, so they don't improve frequency.

Compare that with the C4, which has about 12 individual buses between 7 and 9am. And the 324 has 3 journeys between 7am and 8am. So, even before taking the W8 and 259 into account, Celbridge has the same number (15) of buses into the city in the morning. W8 and 259 would each add another 4 btw.

The hazelhatch train is generally full as is the Maynooth line. Unless Irish rail find a solution to the capacity issues at Connolly loading people to a train won't improve matters. I also don't understand why the 295 is bringing people to confey. Surely Louisa bridge with it's proximity to Intel makes more sense?

The 259 also serves Leixlip residents, so only going to Louisa Bridge would deprive them of a useful service.

As someone has pointed out, the Hazelhatch line is due for a capacity increase very soon. Currently there is absolutely no bus connection to the train for Celbridge residents, it's remarkable that you're trying to spin the addition of one as a negative change!

Also none of these plans have taken into account the amount of land rezoned for housing in the Celbridge/Leixlip/Maynooth area. Commuter numbers will dramatically increase in the next few years and plans need to be in place to prevent traffic mayhem in these towns.

None of the existing network takes that into account either though. As numbers increase, so will bus frequency and routes. That's no reason to kill the entire project.

MJohnston

sharper wrote: »

You can find an hourly breakdown of frequency starting on page 139 of Chapter 7

C3 and C4 will have 10 minute frequency on weekdays at 7-9am and 3-6pm. That's a reasonably significant increase from existing frequency.

Current Sunday frequency for the 67 is every 30 minutes, this drops to one per hour under bus connects.

To be clear, the C3 and C4 individually have a 10 minute frequency, but the C3/C4 combined route (which begins in Leixlip's main street) claims a 5 minute frequency, due to BusConnects aligning the timetables to prevent overlap.

MJohnston

IvySlayer wrote: »

I never get the 67/67x as they are guaranteed to be jam packed!

25/66/a/b/67 and the 3 Xs replaced by 2 routes, hopefully won't be a disaster.

That's not true.

Maynooth will have the C3 route instead of the 66.
Celbridge will have the C4 route instead of the 67.
Leixlip will have the combined C3/C4 route with their aligned timetables, at double the frequency of the combined 66/a/b.
Lucan will have the C3/C4 and the C1/C2 which replaces the 25.

So that's already 4 routes and not 2. But then there's the peak-only routes that replace the Xs:

Celbridge will have a 324 to replace the existing 67X.
Maynooth will have a 323 to replace the existing 66X.
Leixlip will have a dedicated 325 and 326 to replace the existing, non-dedicated 66X.
Lucan will have the 321 and 322 to replace the 25X, as well as being able to access the 323, 324, 325, and 326.

And then, we should also take into account the new local and orbital routes:

Maynooth will have the W8 running from out the Moyglare Road (an area currently unserved by buses) end of town, passing the train station, and then on through Hazelhatch and towards Tallaght.
Celbridge will also be served by this W8, in both directions, as well as a new 259 route that runs from Hazelhatch station to Leixlip Confey station.
Leixlip will be able to use that 259 also.
Lucan will have the 242 running from the centre of the town out to Adamstown station. It will have a 241 running through it from Adamstown station to Liffey Valley. The W4 orbital will also pass through the eastern parts of Lucan towards Blanch and Liffey Valley on one end and Tallaght on the other. The south of Lucan will also have a 255 connecting to the Red Cow Luas (which the existing 151 doesn't do for some bizarre reason).

cgcsb

naughtb4 wrote: »

It's the same in North Dublin, no real way to increase rail capacity and no direct buses to town (from North of Swords) proposed by BC

Hopefully we see an increase in the areas served by private operators if BC goes ahead

But you have a far more frequent service from Swords to the rest of North County Dublin and a far more frequent Swords-City Centre service along a QBC corridor that already has a high level of priority and will increase even more so.

ThunbergsAreGo

cgcsb wrote: »

But you have a far more frequent service from Swords to the rest of North County Dublin and a far more frequent Swords-City Centre service along a QBC corridor that already has a high level of priority and will increase even more so.

There is no increase increased frequency on any of the 33 routes according to the NTAs own documentation - where do you see this increase?

Also as quick as they can make the QBC corridor, given the bus will have to stop it is likely to not be as quick as one which goes through the Port Tunnel (such as the current Express Services and Private operators. Most North of Swords will have a connection AND increased journey time against their current Express services.

Now I will admit, I am looking this as purely as something that effects the commute to work, but this is the view alot of bus users will have, and is the primary time alot of people use public transport.

Also as been pointed out, there was a consultation and I suspect that this was something brought up by a number of people, so hopefully we see changes. It just doesn't inspire confidence that this wasn't considered in the first place, but instead a "they will use the train" view was taken.

LeinsterDub

http://irishcycle.com/2018/10/17/breaking-college-green-plaza-refused-permission/


College green plaza refused , more reworking for Bus Connects so.

MJohnston

^ I don't think the lack of a plaza affects BusConnects - the effects of the plaza on buses can already be felt due to the presence of the Luas, and the network needs to be re-worked through to account for the presence of trams anyway. Any solution that does that will likely also work for a plaza (because it would have to significantly cut east-west travel either way).

cgcsb

Plaza doesn't affect bus connects. If anything bus connects just removes the main reason for refusing the plaza.

GarrettRodgers

OscarMIlde wrote: »

The other thing is bus connects touts a 10 minute peak time frequency for this bus. Any benefits depends on what is defined as peak time. From looking at other routes it seems to be between 7 and 8 in the morning. If that is the case than Celbridge will have less morning buses than currently AND they will take a longer route.

Here you go:
https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1256/proposed-service-hours-and-frequencies.pdf

Honestly looking at it it seems like these parts of Kildare are being well served by BusConnects compared to before, I haven't looked at the prior or future peak only services, but the general ones seem like a huge improvement.

For your own case, would changing in Liffey Valley to an S4 not be the best way to get to UCD? Avoiding the city centre altogether.

OscarMIlde

GarrettRodgers wrote: »

Here you go:
https://www.busconnects.ie/media/1256/proposed-service-hours-and-frequencies.pdf

Honestly looking at it it seems like these parts of Kildare are being well served by BusConnects compared to before, I haven't looked at the prior or future peak only services, but the general ones seem like a huge improvement.

For your own case, would changing in Liffey Valley to an S4 not be the best way to get to UCD? Avoiding the city centre altogether.

Maybe, I'll look into that option.

The city centre routes for peak times are not being served as well as before bus connects under the new plan. The biggest issue for bus commuters is the sheer length the commute takes. All the proposed new city centre buses will be routed through Lucan village, rather taking the bypass, Even with no traffic snafus (unlikely given the amount of buses which will be routed through) this will add at least 20 minutes onto an already long commute. As any commuter knows, the later one leaves the more traffic that will be hit. By delaying the buses at such an early stage in the journey, commuters are likely to encounter significant delays further up route. The 66x and 67x can already take between 50-90 minutes to reach the city centre, to increase this commute time is going to take a heavy toll on bus users.

With regard to frequency, the current expresso services are already overloaded, and passengers are frequently standing if they are able to board at all at some stops. The population of North Kildare is going to skyrocket in the next few years, as rezoning has taken place to increase the supply of houses. A The population of Celbridge alone is projected to grow by at least 10,000 people within the next 5 years. Simply matching the current abysmal levels of service is not something to crow about, it is an absolute failure of a network redesign which is supposed to meet current and near future trasport needs. These housing estates are already being built. That anyone can stand over these decisions is madness.