BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

OscarMIlde

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I am curious, and I am sure it has to do with your course/studies, but was Maynooth University not an option for you?

But maybe you work in UCD. Not enough information as to why someone would live in Maynooth University town and commute to UCD every day!

I work in UCD. It's not the point anyway. There are many people on my route who commute from Maynooth, Leixlip, Celbridge to the city centre and beyond (Baggot st area for example). A lot of people are going to be negatively affected by the reduction in services and longer route, not to mention the ludicrously early leave time for afternoon express services.

Spanish Eyes

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I work in UCD. It's not the point anyway. There are many people on my route who commute from Maynooth, Leixlip, Celbridge to the city centre and beyond (Baggot st area for example). A lot of people are going to be negatively affected by the reduction in services and longer route, not to mention the ludicrously early leave time for afternoon express services.

Fair enough thanks.

OscarMIlde

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

Fair enough thanks.

Sorry if I sounded cranky. I had relatives who don't understand Dublin rent prices saying I should move to Donnybrook last night, and it was rather infuriating!

Spanish Eyes

OscarMIlde wrote: »

Sorry if I sounded cranky. I had relatives who don't understand Dublin rent prices saying I should move to Donnybrook last night, and it was rather infuriating!

No worries, I was just curious about your commute!

Well we are on the Commuting and Transport board.....:eek:

Hope it all works out.

Hotblack Desiato

OscarMIlde wrote: »

My own commute from Maynooth to UCD will become even longer than the current 4 hours per day

A motorcycle will cut that down by about two-thirds.

OscarMIlde

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A motorcycle will cut that down by about two-thirds.

You think the solution to bus connects is that all current users of the North Kildare infrastructure should use a motorcycle? Yeah, that will fulfill one of the stated aims of cutting emissions.

circular flexing

OscarMIlde wrote: »

My own commute from Maynooth to UCD will become even longer than the current 4 hours per day, as the so called new express route designed to replace the 66x is drastically less frequent, and will take an even longer route than it does now. That is unacceptable for an already under served area, especially in light of the massive expansion in housing stock which has been approved for the area.

Is W8 to Tallaght and then S6 or S7 from Tallaght to UCD an option?

OscarMIlde

circular flexing wrote: »

Is W8 to Tallaght and then S6 or S7 from Tallaght to UCD an option?

I don't see how that would be quicker or more convenient. I will still be able to get to UCD with the new plan, but the point is it will be a longer commute (which is already extremely long) and I'll be less likely to be able to catch a bus, as they are less frequent and leave very early in the evening. What I am pointing out is that the proposed improvement with bus connects is a vast dis improvement for an awful lot of people on my route (including potential new commuters who bus connects are supposed to entice). It is obviously so;, a quick survey of drivers or commuters along that route would have provided better and simpler ways of improving journey times and connectedness of towns than bus connects has for north Kildare.

It makes me wonder how much on the ground research went into designing the system. It certainly seems that many assumptions within the report are flawed, e.g. that the buses can effortlessly feed into rail networks, without accounting for the fact that the rail network is overloaded and oversubscribed as is. Where are these new rail passengers going to go?

Any newly proposed system that is relying on best case scenarios for infrastructure upgrades/no or few delays in connecting buses/spare capacity of parallel public transport options is on a hiding to nothing in my opinion. These can be hoped for goals but there seems little contingency in the plans for the absolute chaos which will occur if these requirements are not meant.

I also think that the fundamental problem which bus connects aimed to address, e.g. connecting local towns and recruiting non bus users is but one issue it should have prioritised. Easing the discomfort, journey times and problem of non running buses which plague the thousands of people who already use Dublin bus should have been an equal if not even greater priority.

Stephen15

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I don't see how that would be quicker or more convenient. I will still be able to get to UCD with the new plan, but the point is it will be a longer commute (which is already extremely long) and I'll be less likely to be able to catch a bus, as they are less frequent and leave very early in the evening. What I am pointing out is that the proposed improvement with bus connects is a vast dis improvement for an awful lot of people on my route (including potential new commuters who bus connects are supposed to entice). It is obviously so;, a quick survey of drivers or commuters along that route would have provided better and simpler ways of improving journey times and connectedness of towns than bus connects has for north Kildare.

It makes me wonder how much on the ground research went into designing the system. It certainly seems that many assumptions within the report are flawed, e.g. that the buses can effortlessly feed into rail networks, without accounting for the fact that the rail network is overloaded and oversubscribed as is. Where are these new rail passengers going to go?

Any newly proposed system that is relying on best case scenarios for infrastructure upgrades/no or few delays in connecting buses/spare capacity of parallel public transport options is on a hiding to nothing in my opinion. These can be hoped for goals but there seems little contingency in the plans for the absolute chaos which will occur if these requirements are not meant.

I also think that the fundamental problem which bus connects aimed to address, e.g. connecting local towns and recruiting non bus users is but one issue it should have prioritised. Easing the discomfort, journey times and problem of non running buses which plague the thousands of people who already use Dublin bus should have been an equal if not even greater priority.

Talk about jumping to conclusions you do realise the plans drawn up were a draft and not final. They can and will be changed. I have read the plans and I support the concept Dublin does need a new bus system the current one is flawed and outdated. Some of the changes in Bus Connects aren't great haven't taken local issues into account it's not perfect JW even admitted this and he says they are looking into this.

In the long run what needs to be done in North Kildare is the DART needs to extended out to Maynooth that would open Maynooth and Leixlip commuters up to a lot of new opportunities including a better service to UCD as passenger like yourself could connect with buses to UCD in Blackrock. Also Cambridge needs a better bus service and has been overlooked by this.

I hope you've made you're submission.

OscarMIlde

Stephen15 wrote: »

Talk about jumping to conclusions you do realise the plans drawn up were a draft and not final. They can and will be changed. I have read the plans and I support the concept Dublin does need a new bus system the current one is flawed and outdated. Some of the changes in Bus Connects aren't great haven't taken local issues into account it's not perfect JW even admitted this and he says they are looking into this.

In the long run what needs to be done in North Kildare is the DART needs to extended out to Maynooth that would open Maynooth and Leixlip commuters up to a lot of new opportunities including a better service to UCD as passenger like yourself could connect with buses to UCD in Blackrock. Also Cambridge needs a better bus service and has been overlooked by this.

I hope you've made you're submission.

I did make a submission and I haven't jumped to conclusions. I understand that they can be changed and I hope they are. But there is a meme among supporters of the plan that anyway with (legitimate!) reservations about it is an idiot. In the last few pages people who have voiced concerns have been called morons, not that smart, compared to Brexiteers etc. Those are ridiculously hyperbolic positions and are guaranteed to create friction and hostility. I am not an idiot, and my reservations are legitimate. The plans for north Kildare where clearly generated by someone looking at a map and not someone familiar with the heavy traffic in Maynooth, Leixlip, Celbridge and Lucan villages. It makes me suspect that other far flung locations have likely been given short shrift also.

Another concern of mine is that one supposed aspect of bus connects is that the new route efficiencies will mean improvements will occur with little extra costs (wrt bus and driver numbers). Dublin bus needs significant investment in both to mitigate for driver absences and operational failures, as well as to improve frequency. I understand that this is occuring to some extent due to Go Ahead, but more needs to be done. Drivers and buses won't materialise out of thin air and I suspect that some Peter's will lose out in the rush to improve Paul.

Also, while dart to Maynooth would be fantastic in theory, I'm not sure how it can occur. Connolly is completely full at peak commuter times, trains simply cannot enter. 10 minute dart has made commutes a misery for friends of mine working on the north side. Sometimes simpler fixes can achieve more than radical overhauls. Increasing carriage lengths, increasing early morning (pre seven am) evening (past 7pm) frequency only slightly on the Maynooth line would make the train a more viable option for many and would cause minimal disruption to other services which share stations.

Similarly with north Kildare bus services, a simple increase in expresso services, making them all depart from the city centre and direct to the final town, e.g. stop making Maynooth expressos go through Leixlip and Celbridge woudl increase commute time remarkably. Similarly the 66/66a/66b/67 services should be altered to take the current expresso route. Journey times would increase, meaning buses could take more passes in and out of time and increase frequnecy without increasing driver numbers or buses. There is no need to invent ridiculous new routes in many cases.

XPS_Zero

OscarMIlde wrote: »

There are many legitimate and valid criticisms about bus connects which were raised by commuters. I'm sick of the smug attitude by fans of the proposal that critics of it are either to ignorant or unadaptable to accept change. From the routes I'm intimately familiar with the changes will be a vast disimprovement at peak times, and minimal improvement at other times.

There are just the usual parish pump me fein boll---xx you get from the Irish electorate of "my little slice of the jigsaw will have a slight change i hate" I'll lose my direct access to the city wa wa...well f---k your little slice we have to think of the country as a whole! wa wa f----g wa. Usual crap.


I get really sick listening to it all day every day every time someone proposes anything that might improve this country you get a bunch of whingers coming out in protest at it. Go back and look, even obvious things like the port tunnel had objections and protests, imagine we'd not built that.


We've a country of whingers who are never gonna be happy

Hotblack Desiato

OscarMIlde wrote: »

You think the solution to bus connects is that all current users of the North Kildare infrastructure should use a motorcycle? Yeah, that will fulfill one of the stated aims of cutting emissions.

They're fast and fuel efficient. If you want to rule it out because of prejudice, that's up to you.

Stephen15

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I did make a submission and I haven't jumped to conclusions. I understand that they can be changed and I hope they are. But there is a meme among supporters of the plan that anyway with (legitimate!) reservations about it is an idiot. In the last few pages people who have voiced concerns have been called morons, not that smart, compared to Brexiteers etc. Those are ridiculously hyperbolic positions and are guaranteed to create friction and hostility. I am not an idiot, and my reservations are legitimate. The plans for north Kildare where clearly generated by someone looking at a map and not someone familiar with the heavy traffic in Maynooth, Leixlip, Celbridge and Lucan villages. It makes me suspect that other far flung locations have likely been given short shrift also.

There are problems in North County Dublin aswell as they failed to replace the 33x or the 33d but those issues can be addressed. I wouldn't say the areas far out got shafted most got increased off peak frequency Dunboyne now has a bus every 20 mins to Blanch instead of an hourly bus to the CC. Same with Skerries, Rush and Lusk which had their hourly service increased to every half hour but yes peak capacity does need sorting out in these areas.

The main issue people have is with the likes of the NBRU and other interest groups saying the network shouldn't be changed. I heard some say that the NTA are fixing which isn't broken but we all know the DB network has its problems and shortcomings and is far from perfect. Also the likes of groups protesting at public consultations that really annoyed me. It's just the unwillingness for some of these groups to listen to the other side of the story and even want to come to a reasonable compromise that works for all.

Another concern of mine is that one supposed aspect of bus connects is that the new route efficiencies will mean improvements will occur with little extra costs (wrt bus and driver numbers). Dublin bus needs significant investment in both to mitigate for driver absences and operational failures, as well as to improve frequency. I understand that this is occuring to some extent due to Go Ahead, but more needs to be done. Drivers and buses won't materialise out of thin air and I suspect that some Peter's will lose out in the rush to improve Paul.

I agree this definitely needs to be sorted but we have to remember that BC is not just routes it's a whole serious of improvements to the network. Dublin is getting an increase of 35% in service over the next couple of months as more routes move operators from DB to GAI.

Also, while dart to Maynooth would be fantastic in theory, I'm not sure how it can occur. Connolly is completely full at peak commuter times, trains simply cannot enter. 10 minute dart has made commutes a misery for friends of mine working on the north side. Sometimes simpler fixes can achieve more than radical overhauls. Increasing carriage lengths, increasing early morning (pre seven am) evening (past 7pm) frequency only slightly on the Maynooth line would make the train a more viable option for many and would cause minimal disruption to other services which share stations.

I think it can be done. When the DART is expanded to Balbriggan it could run as Maynooth to Bray/Greystones and Balbriggan to Connolly. Northern Line passengers wishing to travel South can change at Connolly.

marno21

The NTA have published a PIN for tender of a contract for Environmental Impact Assessment, Transport Impact Assessment and Construction Strategy for the 16 Core Bus Corridors announced earlier this year. Concept design for the 16 corridors is complete. Emerging Preferred Routes have been identified and will be put to non statutory public consultation in Q4 2018

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=136601&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

OscarMIlde

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

OscarMIlde wrote: »

You think the solution to bus connects is that all current users of the North Kildare infrastructure should use a motorcycle? Yeah, that will fulfill one of the stated aims of cutting emissions.

They're fast and fuel efficient. If you want to rule it out because of prejudice, that's up to you.

Not everyone is in a position to ride a motorcycle. I occasionally get absent seizures, it would be irresponsible of me to drive a motorcycle.

OscarMIlde

XPS_Zero wrote: »

OscarMIlde wrote: »

There are many legitimate and valid criticisms about bus connects which were raised by commuters. I'm sick of the smug attitude by fans of the proposal that critics of it are either to ignorant or unadaptable to accept change. From the routes I'm intimately familiar with the changes will be a vast disimprovement at peak times, and minimal improvement at other times.

There are just the usual parish pump me fein boll---xx you get from the Irish electorate of "my little slice of the jigsaw will have a slight change i hate" I'll lose my direct access to the city wa wa...well f---k your little slice we have to think of the country as a whole! wa wa f----g wa. Usual crap.


I get really sick listening to it all day every day every time someone proposes anything that might improve this country you get a bunch of whingers coming out in protest at it. Go back and look, even obvious things like the port tunnel had objections and protests, imagine we'd not built that.


We've a country of whingers who are never gonna be happy

People who have an extremely long commute are entitled to be upset if changes are made which make it even longer. We are not talking about a small group of people. There are thousands of new houses being built in the west Dublin/north Kildare area and bus connects did not account for this.

Calling people whingers and complaining of parish pump politics is pathetic. Extra commute times has very real implications for quality of life. It can mean the difference between being able to keep working while having young children or being forced to give up as it is impossible to meet creche opening times and get to work on time for example.

I'm not against change but it needs to be well considered and many aspects of the report seem to lack appropriate local knowledge and rely on too much blue sky thinking. Sneering at prople won't change that reality.

CatInABox

A dedicated car user suffers a near-stroke, has to use Aucklands new bus network for a while, and reviews it here.

It's an interesting perspective in that it's a member of the public that will never use public transport, and is unapologetic about it.

Here's a few of the positive things he says about it:

It's good. Quite startlingly good.

The need to catch two buses on each trip is not the deterrent I'd always supposed. At the busway station I hardly had to break stride. As you walk onto the platform one bus is leaving and another is coming in.

Will he continue to use the bus after he recovers? No.

So all things considered, will I get back in the car when I can? Of course I will.

Public transport promoters pretend not to understand the appeal of the private car but I think they do. Most of them probably use their car for plenty of journeys they could take by public transport. It's just so convenient to have a car nearby, your own car, to go where you want when you want, and go all the way there, door to door.

But I'm not going to listen ever again to Aucklanders claiming they use the car only because the city's public transport is so bad. It is not. It's fine.

OscarMIlde

CatInABox wrote: »

A dedicated car user suffers a near-stroke, has to use Aucklands new bus network for a while, and reviews it here.

It's an interesting perspective in that it's a member of the public that will never use public transport, and is unapologetic about it.

Here's a few of the positive things he says about it:

It's good. Quite startlingly good.

The need to catch two buses on each trip is not the deterrent I'd always supposed. At the busway station I hardly had to break stride. As you walk onto the platform one bus is leaving and another is coming in.

Will he continue to use the bus after he recovers? No.

So all things considered, will I get back in the car when I can? Of course I will.

Public transport promoters pretend not to understand the appeal of the private car but I think they do. Most of them probably use their car for plenty of journeys they could take by public transport. It's just so convenient to have a car nearby, your own car, to go where you want when you want, and go all the way there, door to door.

But I'm not going to listen ever again to Aucklanders claiming they use the car only because the city's public transport is so bad. It is not. It's fine.

I think that's true of a lot of people dedicated to their cars. They will never switch unless they have to. It's why I think bus connects were wrong to place so much emphasis on attracting fair weather users, I think they're not going to get the bus regardless. My friends with cars would rather drive to Liffey Vaĺley/Blanchardstown/Dundrum to shop than bus it to the city centre.

CatInABox

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I think that's true of a lot of people dedicated to their cars. They will never switch unless they have to. It's why I think bus connects were wrong to place so much emphasis on attracting fair weather users, I think they're not going to get the bus regardless. My friends with cars would rather drive to Liffey Vaĺley/Blanchardstown/Dundrum to shop than bus it to the city centre.

Auckland is essentially the same plan as BusConnects, and passenger numbers are going up there. Plenty of people will swap over given a chance.

Hurrache

OscarMIlde wrote: »

Calling people whingers and complaining of parish pump politics is pathetic.

It's common enough on this thread. No one denies that there is a bit of ignorance as to how the system should work, but when someone raises an genuine issue they have they can be labelled as whingers or someone who can't understand BusConnects. That post was a particularly mad rant.

RayCun

OscarMIlde wrote: »

My own commute from Maynooth to UCD will become even longer than the current 4 hours per day, as the so called new express route designed to replace the 66x is drastically less frequent, and will take an even longer route than it does now.

what about the train?

Qrt

RayCun wrote: »

what about the train?

Packed. I thought it was common knowledge.

RayCun

Qrt wrote: »

Packed. I thought it was common knowledge.

If we're talking about how to improve travel time for commuters from Maynooth to the city centre/from there to UCD, should be the focus be on buses or trains?

ThunbergsAreGo

RayCun wrote: »

If we're talking about how to improve travel time for commuters from Maynooth to the city centre/from there to UCD, should be the focus be on buses or trains?

Ideally it would be trains with an increase in frequency and capacity from Maynooth/Drogheda etc but capacity just isn't there at peak time with Connolly unable to cope with current throughput and no new stock due for at least two years.

It is a major assumption of BC that the rail (Getting people out of using the bus for journeys to the city centre and onto the train) can cope with all those whose services are being worsened by BC (no direct bus , no usage of Port Tunnel). It can just about cope with current levels. This should be a required precursor to BC.

BC in its current guise for would be a disaster for those in these areas and a trip to town on a bus for commuting wouldn't be feasible (not even taking the issues with commuting home into account)

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

I have heard that an EV single decker weighs nearly as much as a double decker which isin't exactly ideal and batteries on the roof may effect the bus height for going under low bridges which is often the reason why a route uses single deckers rather than double decker buses.

Fair enough on the height. Though they aren't that much higher and it shouldn't stop you going EV for the majority of your fleet. You can always keep a few diesel buses to operate the odd route with a low bridge.

Being heavier isn't an issue. Weight only comes into play with Diesel buses, due to emission standards, that obviously wouldn't effect an EV bus.

Do you mean being too heavy for some bridge? Again just keep a few Diesel/Biogas buses for that route if it is an issue.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think for EV to be viable in the long they need to weigh the same with the same engine space taken up by the batteries as on a diesel bus. No comprises on weight, height or passenger space.

Well that is simply unrealistic. You are simply condemning us to continue to use Diesel and having cancerous fumes blown in our face!

Again I don't see the issue with weight, EV cars are heavier, it doesn't really make a difference, ask any EV driver. It actually makes the cars more stable and feel grounded.

Height isn't an issue for most routes. Given that China is producing 9,000 EV buses every 6 weeks, the equivalent of the entire London Bus fleet, it clearly isn't that big of an issue.

Passenger space in an EV Double decker I do agree is an issue. It will likely take a ground up brand new chassis built for EV to solve that.

OscarMIlde

RayCun wrote: »

OscarMIlde wrote: »

My own commute from Maynooth to UCD will become even longer than the current 4 hours per day, as the so called new express route designed to replace the 66x is drastically less frequent, and will take an even longer route than it does now.

what about the train?

I used to get it, but my work times can be a bit unpredictable (I'm a research scientist) and the train is great (if packed ) at peak times but there is no early option if I have to be in early and there are masssive gaps in frequency after seven. I used to get really stressed trying to make it out on time and eventually settled on the bus when time to decide on a single ticket. If the combined bus and rail tickets weren't so expensive or there was some kind of Irish rail equivalent to a rambler I would use both modes of transport.

RayCun

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I used to get it, but my work times can be a bit unpredictable (I'm a research scientist) and the train is great (if packed ) at peak times but there is no early option if I have to be in early and there are masssive gaps in frequency after seven. I used to get really stressed trying to make it out on time and eventually settled on the bus when time to decide on a single ticket. If the combined bus and rail tickets weren't so expensive or there was some kind of Irish rail equivalent to a rambler I would use both modes of transport.

I can't imagine you are ever going to have public transport options that are really satisfactory if you are frequently travelling at off-peak times to and from a town in a different county.

ThunbergsAreGo

RayCun wrote: »

I can't imagine you are ever going to have public transport options that are really satisfactory if you are frequently travelling at off-peak times to and from a town in a different county.

Does that mean its ok for his commute to get less satisfactory?

Thousands travel from outside the county to Dublin to work

RayCun

naughtb4 wrote: »

Thousands travel from outside the county to Dublin to work

Most of them at peak times. Hence the name.

OscarMIlde

RayCun wrote: »

OscarMIlde wrote: »

I used to get it, but my work times can be a bit unpredictable (I'm a research scientist) and the train is great (if packed ) at peak times but there is no early option if I have to be in early and there are masssive gaps in frequency after seven. I used to get really stressed trying to make it out on time and eventually settled on the bus when time to decide on a single ticket. If the combined bus and rail tickets weren't so expensive or there was some kind of Irish rail equivalent to a rambler I would use both modes of transport.

I can't imagine you are ever going to have public transport options that are really satisfactory if you are frequently travelling at off-peak times to and from a town in a different county.

I probably won't, but since very many people commute from north Kildare to the city centre I don't see why an effort shouldn't be made to improve journey times to Dublin. I'm also not frequently travelling at off peak times but it can happen that my work is delayed by half an hour to an hour so I will leave at 6 or half six rather which is not terribly off peak. Certainly buses and trains are still full at these times. My point about bus connects was that the proposed changes were going to worsen peak commuter times and frequency for my area, with minimal (but welcome!) Improvements to off peak journey times. I just don't see the point of extending already long commute times at the times of peak usage.