BusConnects Dublin - Big changes to Bus Network

sharper

MJohnston wrote: »

Nope, that's not accurate - the X services all go down the Quays and cross at O'Connell Bridge, then through College Green. This is by far the most congested part of the city.

Personally I find the impact of that change hard to predict given all the other changes that will also be happening so I haven't really been considering it.

MJohnston

Daemonic wrote: »

That's an optimistic train journey. Current train times from Hazelhatch to Connolly (the most likely stop for anyone taking rail instead of a current 67X) is between 35-40 minutes. Only 5-10 minutes less than the time it currently takes to get from Celbridge main street to Bachelor's Walk without adding in the additional time commuting to and from Hazelhatch station and the likely waiting time for the 259/W8.

Yeah but a reason most people take the train the whole way to Connolly is because of the lack of a 90 minute flat-fare. It looks like we might even get one of those without BusConnects, which would be excellent, but it would mean you'd be far more likely to get off at Heuston and use the Luas if you wanted to go to Connolly or beyond.

Hazelhatch to Heuston times are much much closer to 20-25 minutes.

MJohnston

sharper wrote: »

Personally I find the impact of that change hard to predict given all the other changes that will also be happening so I haven't really been considering it.

Well it's still a change that is happening, and if you left everything else in place and routed the 67X that way, for example, you would almost certainly see an 8-10 minute journey time saving.

But then, even if those routes still went down to O'Connell Bridge, BusConnects infrastructure changes would have almost certainly have forced through the Quays car ban, which would speed up journey times that way too!

Which does make me wonder why we got the network changes put up for consultation without knowing the infrastructure plan. I think they should have been presented in parallel.

.G.

I want BC to come in, I think we need it and overall it'll be much improved to what we have but that times article shows they are already going arseways about it. BC due to commence in 2020 but the bus lanes won't be started until 2021 :rolleyes:

I guess Jarret will be looking more at a Wellington than an Auckland.

Daemonic

MJohnston wrote: »

Yeah but a reason most people take the train the whole way to Connolly is because of the lack of a 90 minute flat-fare. It looks like we might even get one of those without BusConnects, which would be excellent, but it would mean you'd be far more likely to get off at Heuston and use the Luas if you wanted to go to Connolly or beyond.

Hazelhatch to Heuston times are much much closer to 20-25 minutes.

You're joking right? You're on the train, maybe even managed to get a seat and you'll voluntarily get off at Heuston to get a packed Luas which will take 20 minutes to get you to Connolly anyway??

I agree with the majority of your points on this thread but disingenuous use of journey times to Heuston which is not the city centre does your posts a disservice.

Stephen15

Daemonic wrote: »

You're joking right? You're on the train, maybe even managed to get a seat and you'll voluntarily get off at Heuston to get a packed Luas which will take 20 minutes to get you to Connolly anyway??

I agree with the majority of your points on this thread but disingenuous use of journey times to Heuston which is not the city centre does your posts a disservice.

Why not have it like in London where a Day travel card which could be valid on Luas, Bus, DART and commuter trains is included in the price of a train ticket particularly for those travelling longer distances from outside the short hop zone.

Zebra3

TheChrisD wrote: »

Well, what sort of alternative option did you suggest?

North Kildare services should bypass Lucan village using the N4. Anybody wanting out for Lucan village can get off at the N4 and take the short stroll down to the village.

Huge time savings to be had.

AndrewJRenko

bk wrote: »

Would you look at the size of the "front garden" of this lady who is complaining. That isn't a garden, that is a car park that can fit 10 cars!!

And her back garden is double that size again. Just shows the insane NIMBYism

And you can be absolutely certain that the IT photographer knew that would be the exact response to that carefully positioned photo.

Zebra3

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

And you can be absolutely certain that the IT photographer knew that would be the exact response to that carefully positioned photo.

I wouldn’t bet on it.

Probably took it at that angle so people would be concerned about her garden.

Marcusm

bk wrote: »

Would you look at the size of the "front garden" of this lady who is complaining. That isn't a garden, that is a car park that can fit 10 cars!!

And her back garden is double that size again. Just shows the insane NIMBYism

I had a lucky escape as I nearly bought a house in that road three years ago. The extensive front parking was an attraction. Not all of the houses have extensive back gardens. I’m in favour of BusConnects. Many of these houses have been brought back into family ownership and there will be substantial compensation to be paid - they are protected structures with limited ability for appropriate sound proofing. Post BusConnects, they should be delisted and permitted to be broken up into multiple units. A properly integrated solution to the loss of space in the front.

Dravokivich

bk wrote: »

Would you look at the size of the "front garden" of this lady who is complaining. That isn't a garden, that is a car park that can fit 10 cars!!

And her back garden is double that size again. Just shows the insane NIMBYism

So? Would you rather on street parking?

MJohnston

Dravokivich wrote: »

So? Would you rather on street parking?

Or maybe there's a middle ground 🀔

AndrewJRenko

Marcusm wrote: »

they are protected structures with limited ability for appropriate sound proofing. Post BusConnects, they should be delisted and permitted to be broken up into multiple units. A properly integrated solution to the loss of space in the front.

'Limited ability' or just 'much more expensive solutions', same as pretty much anything to do with a listed property.


But I don't see the connection at all between BusConnects and protecting the property. If the property is worth protection, why would we need to drop that connection?

bk

Dravokivich wrote: »

So? Would you rather on street parking?

I'd rather she took the bus :P

But in all seriousness they are only talking about taking a few meters, she will still be able to park a half a dozen cars there. So cry me a river.

Qrt

bk wrote: »

I'd rather she took the bus :P

But in all seriousness they are only talking about taking a few meters, she will still be able to park a half a dozen cars there. So cry me a river.

As far as I remember, that's Terenure Road East. Quick look on street view and it seems to have bus lanes in both directions, so we're talking around 3m (2m ideal cycle path, NTA seem to be going for less, and a metre to play with for bus stop bypasses etc.)

I'm sure they'll all survive.

Marcusm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

'Limited ability' or just 'much more expensive solutions', same as pretty much anything to do with a listed property.


But I don't see the connection at all between BusConnects and protecting the property. If the property is worth protection, why would we need to drop that connection?

In some circumstances you are able to retrofit this double glazing within the original sash windows but unless the windows themselves are completely rotten you won’t be abl to change them or the doors. The result of this is limited ability irrespective of cost which can be spent. As regards the protection, I don’t think it should be rescinded but recognising that the reduction of th appurtenant land by definition is a serious change to the heritage structure, better, to my mind, to consider what other changes might be more easily facilitated to ensure that the external views of the building suffer limited changes.

Peregrine

Looking at Google Maps, her front garden is 350 sq metres. She could build a tennis court on it. After building a tennis court, if the dimensions were more suitable, she could then build a car park with space for six cars with the area left over — a 4.5m lane in the middle for access with three spaces on either side.

Her back garden is even bigger.

Cry me a river.

Podge_irl

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/blind-man-s-view-busconnects-fails-me-it-should-be-all-inclusive-1.3670960

Hold on a second - this is an article claiming that a blind man who currently gets the 14 from Collins Avenue and changes to the Luas at Connolly to get to Spencer Dock will now have to walk to a different bus stop and get a bus to Artane, then a bus to town and then the Luas. The pretext being that BusConnects hasn't thought about its disabled users. Even ignoring that this pretext doesn't really make sense and this is a whole lot of hot air without remotely pretending to have a better idea - if he used to get the 14 from Collins Ave will he not now be able to get the N4 from Collins Avenue straight to work!?

Daith

Podge_irl wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/blind-man-s-view-busconnects-fails-me-it-should-be-all-inclusive-1.3670960

Hold on a second - this is an article claiming that a blind man who currently gets the 14 from Collins Avenue and changes to the Luas at Connolly to get to Spencer Dock will now have to walk to a different bus stop and get a bus to Artane, then a bus to town and then the Luas. The pretext being that BusConnects hasn't thought about its disabled users. Even ignoring that this pretext doesn't really make sense and this is a whole lot of hot air without remotely pretending to have a better idea - if he used to get the 14 from Collins Ave will he not now be able to get the N4 from Collins Avenue straight to work!?

That's exactly what I thought? It would be an improvement for him? I still don't see how he would need to change in Artane either? He could still get a bus and transfer to Luas in Abbey St I think?

Podge_irl

Daith wrote: »

That's exactly what I thought? It would be an improvement for him? I still don't see how he would need to change in Artane either? He could still get a bus and transfer to Luas in Abbey St I think?

I think it is suggesting he would have to get the N6 up to Artane roundabout and then change to a D spine and then change to a Luas. That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense though. Now, if he is currently boarding on Beaumont Road, rather than Collins Avenue as in the article, between the hospital and the current 14 terminus then he would have something of a point. Either way though it is a terrible article that is full of factual errors.

We are talking a very small section of the 14 route that is not replaced by either the A1 or the N4 though.

XPS_Zero

Podge_irl wrote: »

I think it is suggesting he would have to get the N6 up to Artane roundabout and then change to a D spine and then change to a Luas. That doesn't make the slightest bit of sense though. Now, if he is currently boarding on Beaumont Road, rather than Collins Avenue as in the article, between the hospital and the current 14 terminus then he would have something of a point. Either way though it is a terrible article that is full of factual errors.

We are talking a very small section of the 14 route that is not replaced by either the A1 or the N4 though.

Yet another case of someone not understanding the plan.


But I'm gonna say what you're apparently not allowed say in this debate: even if it did screw this one person into a six change journey, that's not reason to stop or even alter the plan.


There are always going to be outliers like this, is the press seriously suggesting that because of a hand full of people, even if a few of them are disabled, we should scrap or dismantle a plan that helps millions?


I'm baffled that they are seriously doing a front page story on how a major strategic change affects ONE PERSON! ONE PERSON! My respect for the Irish media gets lower and lower each day, this is Joe Duffy level stuff.


It's not going to be possible to tweak a major strategic plan that affects millions for every unusual journey pattern of specific individuals...how do they not get this? I understand why the politicians are exploiting this, they are using it for PR to get their faces out in public esp the newbies, but journos seem to honestly not understand that my journey from Sligo to Belfast not having a direct route by rail is not reason to build a track!

Hurrache

I'd be interested in seeing the cross over of those happy to see that persons property CPD'd for BusConnect for the greater good of those that travel down that road, but not happy to see College Green turned into a Plaza, for the greater good of the city.

CatInABox

“BusConnects fails me. But I don’t think the plan should change to facilitate just me. The plan should be all-inclusive.”

I don't get this. I don't think that he's looking for a bus network, he's looking for a taxi.

AlmightyCushion

Hurrache wrote: »

I'd be interested in seeing the cross over of those happy to see that persons property CPD'd for BusConnect for the greater good of those that travel down that road, but not happy to see College Green turned into a Plaza, for the greater good of the city.

Happy to see that person's property CPO'd for BusConnect (not as a fúck you to that person, just in general I don't have a problem with CPOing land/property to facilitate public transport).

I don't go down that road.
College Green - I am mixed on it. I haven't read all the plans for it so can't really form a full opinion on it but whilst I like the idea of pedestrianising it, a lot of buses go through there at the moment and moving them from there will probably negatively affect journey times/congestion for the bus network. If it can be done in a way that won't negatively affect the bus network too much, I'm for it. Otherwise I'd be reluctantly against it.

Podge_irl

CatInABox wrote: »

I don't get this. I don't think that he's looking for a bus network, he's looking for a taxi.

It is just another way of saying "I think the plan should be built around me but I know that sounds absurd so I will phrase it differently".

MJohnston

Hurrache wrote: »

I'd be interested in seeing the cross over of those happy to see that persons property CPD'd for BusConnect for the greater good of those that travel down that road, but not happy to see College Green turned into a Plaza, for the greater good of the city.

Kinda irrelevant - if that person's property is CPO'd for BusConnects, then it means the rest of BusConnects is going ahead. If the rest of BusConnects is going ahead, then it means that all bus routes that pass east-west through College Green will be removed, and extra infrastructure provided on the alternate routes in order to accommodate the extra buses. Which means that the only practical objections to the College Green plaza are solved.

So, if you're in favour of BusConnects, there's really no reason to not be in favour of the plaza. You can certainly insist the Plaza be dependent on BusConnects though.

Hurrache

And equally one street is not going to prevent the rest of BusConnects going ahead.

But it's not really irrelevant. You have people, almost gleefully, saying yeah, take some of their property away, they have enough, and it's for the greater good. But they can also argue that hang on, don't give aside that bit of space in the centre of Dublin to the people of the city, it should be left in the domain of cars and buses as it has a knock of affect on my journey times.

A person losing some of their property, permanently, vs a persons travel time affected, twice a day. Take away that bit of space, it'll affect my journey time. Don't take that bit of space away, it'll affect my journey time.

I just find it ironic.

MJohnston

Hurrache wrote: »

And equally one street is not going to prevent the rest of BusConnects going ahead.

Well it is going to prevent a substantial portion of it from working, but you do you.

Qrt

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/busconnects-plan-shows-disregard-for-disabled-and-elderly-says-mcgrath-1.3670929

In another case, the planned removal of the 104 bus route will mean students who can currently travel between Clontarf and DCU in neighbouring northside Glasnevin will in future have to journey into the city centre and take a bus back out again.

Is someone going to tell him that the N4 will go by DCU, after it goes by Clontarf Road station?

bk

Hurrache wrote: »

And equally one street is not going to prevent the rest of BusConnects going ahead.

But it's not really irrelevant. You have people, almost gleefully, saying yeah, take some of their property away, they have enough, and it's for the greater good. But they can also argue that hang on, don't give aside that bit of space in the centre of Dublin to the people of the city, it should be left in the domain of cars and buses as it has a knock of affect on my journey times.

A person losing some of their property, permanently, vs a persons travel time affected, twice a day. Take away that bit of space, it'll affect my journey time. Don't take that bit of space away, it'll affect my journey time.

I just find it ironic.

Personally I'm in favour of both the the BusConnects CPOing and College Green.

However there is nothing ironic about the above. The BusConnects CPO's are pretty clear cut, it is some individuals losing a slither of land (and getting handsomely paid for it) for the benefit of thousands of bus commuters.

It is a clear case of the needs of the many being more important then the needs of the few.

College Green isn't so clear cut. On the one hand many would benefit from a nice plaza in the center of the city, but on the other hands, tens of thousands might have their bus journeys severely impacted if the alternative routes aren't carefully planned for.

On the balance in this instance, it is a lot more difficult to say which group is the many and which is the few.

So really nothing ironic about that.

I'd suspect most bus users would be very much in favour of College Green, if it also goes hand in hand with a comprehensive plan for the buses too. Two way on Parliament Street, cars removed from the Quays, Quay footpaths widened, etc.

It is clear to me, that the mistake made with College Green, is that we need a master plan for the entire city. For the removal of cars and the improvement of footpaths, cyclepaths and bus lanes all over the city center and not just College Green, which should make up just one part of that plan.