proposed €19m tourist development of the HellFire Club

seamus

If you've been misrepresented, please enlighten me as to the nature of your opposition.

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seamus

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No, I'm trying to tease out your actual objections here. So I've gone back through the thread and lifted your key objections:

I dont think pouring vast quantities of concrete all over Montpelier Hill is a good idea

I also do not for a minute believe it will stay free.

destroy the natural beauty up there

will wreck the place

The whole point is that its an unspoilt area

The whole reason its so nice is because its mostly untouched, and not too packed

Events space, retail space, a tuck shop - I actually cringed reading that. The HellFire Club and Masseys are a place to go to escape such things.

Precisely whats attractive is that its undeveloped.

So I stand by my previous post. You object to it because you oppose development. Even though the whole "untouched" bit will remain untouched, you just don't want it.

If you feel this misrepresents your position - taken from your own posts on this thread - then feel free to offer more insight.

Though the first time around I missed the choice quote "not too packed". You resent the idea that you might not be able to go up and have a nice quiet morning at the Hellfire on your own, that other people might be encouraged to go up there.

Of course, as property of the state you're not entitled to exclusive use of it and opposing development on the basis that it may no longer be your own personal oasis, is pure selfishness.

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ted1

Tabnabs wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

Why is there a need to attract more people to it?

Because SDCC has amassed a large budget to develop a "tourism" product and has extremely limited opportunities to exploit develop the tourism potential of their demesne.

Assisting the GAA to buy the spawell site and build a Dublin stadium would have attracted lots of tourists.
A science and technology park/museum would also attract tourists and help bring in investments.
A kayak and watersports centre on the dodder would bring in tourists.

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seamus

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Ah right, so you're just pretending you have a point then. Cos if I'd missed it, you'd tell us what it is rather than keep claiming that I've missed it.

Don't bother responding to me, I've wasted enough time on your posts, there's nothing else to be discussed between us.

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salmocab

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Id imagine thats in DLR not South County Dublin

Tabnabs

ted1 wrote: »

Assisting the GAA to buy the spawell site and build a Dublin stadium would have attracted lots of tourists.
A science and technology park/museum would also attract tourists and help bring in investments.
A kayak and watersports centre on the dodder would bring in tourists.

The CoCo already have a football stadium that is also used for other sports. So not much good to them.

A science and technology park, if the current project is a massive €19m, what would that project run to...?

A kayak and watersports centre on the dodder, have you seen the depth of the Dodder in the SDCC area? You can wade it in rubber boots!

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salmocab

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Out of interest I googled that site and all the news albeit a few years back about development all mention DLR as the local authority.

The rest of your post has nothing to with me.

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AndrewJRenko

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Nope, it is DLR area. DLR looks after Marlay, all of Blackglen Road and Harold's Grange Road.

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Why does every bit of tax payer's money have to go to the "housing crisis"?

This is an attraction for tax payer's to bring their kids to or enjoy it themselves.

Don't tax payer's deserve something in return too?

Everyone pays tax, including homeless people. Every time they buy a can of beer or a sandwich they pay tax. The middle classes don't have a monopoly on paying tax.

ted1 wrote: »

Budgets allocate funding over different areas, you can pump 100% of the budget into housing , that's just daft and totally unfair to tax payers. The homeless get enough of a % off-the-budget.

So change the allocation? A budget allocation is a policy decision, and policies can be changed. They aren't engraved in stone. BTW, what % do the homeless currently get?

Tabnabs wrote: »

Because SDCC has amassed a large budget to develop a "tourism" product and has extremely limited opportunities to exploit develop the tourism potential of their demesne.

Public bodies can't amass budgets. They run on annual allocations from central Goverment. If they can't spend the money well, they can hand it back where a good use will be found for it. This isn't a good reason for a project like this.

Tabnabs

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Public bodies can't amass budgets. They run on annual allocations from central Goverment. If they can't spend the money well, they can hand it back where a good use will be found for it. This isn't a good reason for a project like this.

How does the like of DLRCoCo (for example) have €150m in 'Bank Investments' listed in their audited accounts for 2016 then? Surely their obliged to hand this handsome surplus back as you suggest?

AndrewJRenko

Tabnabs wrote: »

How does the like of DLRCoCo (for example) have €150m in 'Bank Investments' listed in their audited accounts for 2016 then? Surely their obliged to hand this handsome surplus back as you suggest?

Ask them if you're interested. It could well be related to the DLR Properties Ltd; http://www.dlrp.ie/

Tabnabs

Could be, but then SDCC themselves have €85 million squirrelled away. Plenty of cash in the local authority gig.

AndrewJRenko

Tabnabs wrote: »

Could be, but then SDCC themselves have €85 million squirrelled away. Plenty of cash in the local authority gig.

Cash in the bank doesn't mean cash squirrelled away. When you have a large budget, you will have large amounts of cash in the bank at any one time.

ted1

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Tabnabs wrote: »

How does the like of DLRCoCo (for example) have €150m in 'Bank Investments' listed in their audited accounts for 2016 then? Surely their obliged to hand this handsome surplus back as you suggest?

Ask them if you're interested. It could well be related to the DLR Properties Ltd; http://www.dlrp.ie/

80% of the LPT goes to the council, that's why some councils are cash rich compared to others.

salmocab

ted1 wrote: »

80% of the LPT goes to the council, that's why some councils are cash rich compared to others.

Was that not just the plan but never actually happened as only 5 councils would have enough to fund themselves so govt just kept the lot and allocated it out as they see fit?

Tabnabs

The plan is on hold over a bird that the experts say won't be affected by the development. Only in Ireland...

It was great fun sitting in the traffic jam for 15 minutes on the Old Military Road yesterday, because of all the people who had to park on the road due to the Hellfire car park being oversubscribed. An issue the emergency services have flagged several times too.

The proposed €19m redevelopment of Dublin's Hellfire Club is being held up for another year because of its potential effects on the Merlin bird of prey.

South Dublin County Council wanted to build a visitor centre and other facilities at the popular tourist and daytripper spot in the Dublin Mountains near Rathfarnham.

The application to An Bord Pleanála provoked a large number of objections from local farmers, hillwalkers and conservationists and an oral heading was held last November.

The board has now written to the council saying that its bird survey was inadequate in relation to the Merlin bird, as it was limited to the summer months of 2018.

The decision has been condemned by the Irish Raptor Study Group who say they advised both sides that the development would not affect Merlins.

Spokesperson Ryan Wilson Parr said the decision was "disappointing" as his group had said they had no issues with the plan.

A statement on their Facebook page said that birds of prey have been subjected to "unnecessary negative stigma" by this decision.

"Unfortunately and without foundation the Merlin has been used as a focus for objection and it has stuck".

It added that An Bord Pleanála had allowed a wind farm on an important breeding ground for hen harriers but refused the Hellfire development because of potential effects".

"The double standards here... is something that should concern our TDs, developers consultants and public alike."

The council has been given until February 2020 to submit further information that would cover all seasons.

The council has also been told to prepare a Natura Impact Statement on the effects of increased visitor numbers on three nearby areas of conservation and protection.

In its submission to the board, South Dublin County Council said the development was necessary because of population growth.

The council wants to build a visitor centre with bigger car parks and a treetop walk, and to more than triple current visitor numbers to 300,000 a year.

The project would include works to preserve a number of national monuments on the site.

Architect Paul Keogh told the oral hearing that the plan was to do "as much as necessary and as little as possible".

But the Save The Hellfire group, who say they have a petition signed by 20,000 people opposing the developments, say it is inappropriate and will have a negative impact on an already fragile environment.

https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2019/0211/1028821-hell-fire-club/

Grassey

Ticketing & towing illegally parked cars would solve that far quicker than sticking in a coffee shop.

Synode

Grassey wrote: »

Ticketing & towing illegally parked cars would solve that far quicker than sticking in a coffee shop.

It should be solved properly. Ticketing and/or towing will not do that

hmmm

Grassey wrote: »

Ticketing & towing illegally parked cars would solve that far quicker than sticking in a coffee shop.

Or we could provide safe parking for families who want to take their kids for a walk in the foothills, instead of sitting in a pub stuffing their faces.

People can be awful miserable killjoys in this country.

Grassey

How would it not properly solve illegal parking? It's a solid white line. Don't park opposite it. Simple.

If the carpark is full, move on to one of the other many walks in the area, there are a fair few.

If the supermarket car park was full you'd hardly just lamp the car out on the road blocking traffic while you pop in.

Del.Monte

hmmm wrote: »

Or we could provide safe parking for families who want to take their kids for a walk in the foothills, instead of sitting in a pub stuffing their faces.

People can be awful miserable killjoys in this country.

I know, we should build centres and carparks in every beauty spot that we can locate in the country. I heard someone on the radio tonight calling for a dual carriageway to the Cliffs of Moher. Only in Ireland. :rolleyes:

hmmm

Del.Monte wrote: »

I know, we should build centres and carparks in every beauty spot that we can locate in the country. I heard someone on the radio tonight calling for a dual carriageway to the Cliffs of Moher. Only in Ireland. :rolleyes:

The objectors don't want cars, they don't want buses, they don't want a cable car, they don't want anything. I've talked to people objecting to this who haven't been up there in years. Miserable, miserable people with no care for society other than their own miserable life of being miserable old windbags - and they need to be called out on this rather than being indulged.

We need to open these places up, provide good access and encourage people into the hills and the outdoors - particularly kids.

Grassey

Here now, you can't paint all objectors with that brush.

Purchasing some of the Orlagh estate to develop a large car park and then have a drop off bus / cable car /segways/ extended walk up via cartys Castle /whatever - all would have been a far better proposals than doubling the existing carpark and throwing in a centre ruining over the 1st km of the current walk.

The place has good access, is open and accessible. Parking has a capacity though. Like most attractions. Plenty of bike racks up there though.

AndrewJRenko

Tabnabs wrote: »

It was great fun sitting in the traffic jam for 15 minutes on the Old Military Road yesterday, because of all the people who had to park on the road due to the Hellfire car park being oversubscribed. An issue the emergency services have flagged several times too.

No-one HAS to park on the road. Selfish people CHOOSE to park on the road and endanger people instead of moving off and finding another place/time to park safely and legally.



There isn't enough space on the planet to provide parking for all those who refuse to consider other forms of transportation.

hmmm

Grassey wrote: »

The place has good access, is open and accessible. Parking has a capacity though. Like most attractions. Plenty of bike racks up there though.

And that capacity is completely overloaded with families and kids running around the road. I wouldn't cycle with my kids along that road in a million years.