proposed €19m tourist development of the HellFire Club

RosieJoe

I never even heard of this proposed development but I was glad to read about the opposition of it today, full article here

GarIT

There could be some positives if there is no entrance fee.

It would most likely put an end to the Facebook group arranging bare knuckle boxing after dark. A friend of mine went up there innocently and had a glass bottle smashed over his head because he came across the wrong people. It really isn't safe after dark up there.

It will probably also prevent the odd condom and needle that does be found up there.

It's a lovely place during the day but it's a dangerous kip after dark.

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Grassey

Destroying the majority of the wooded walk to the hellfire to put in more car spaces, a huge glass 'visitor centre' and a skywalk to Massey Woods is a joke.

They would have been better off buying some of the lands below the woods for the car park and having a longer trail up to join the existing trails.

I agree that parking is limited currently and an issue but the current plans seem to solve that at the expense of the reason people head up there in the first place!!!

GarIT

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I believe he was up there around 8, less than a month ago, just after sunset really rather than the middle of the night and it was up at the clubhouse itself rather than the carpark. I know myself that's it isn't safe and I wouldn't go up there at night. He was more of an acquaintance than a friend, I haven't seen him in at least 2 years os I don't know the full story, just saw it on Facebook.

I'd say it's just a bit of convenient place for the fighting, away from easy access for the gardaí and it has a bit of fame and spookiness about it. They would do it somewhere else if they couldn't do it there I just thought it would be nice if it wasn't happening at a touristy/family spot. Although I assume there wouldn't be much tourists or families up there at night.

I don't know about the vast quantities of concrete. I would hate that, but if they built a visitors centre the size of an average house near the existing car park I think it would be a good idea.

Jellybaby1

Someone will make money out of that plan to be sure. Everyone is aware that there is a lot of undesirable activity in that area and not just at night. The mess to be found on the hillside tells the obvious story. I'm of two minds about the plan, something needs to be done but not at any cost.

Del2005

GarIT wrote: »

I believe he was up there around 8, less than a month ago, just after sunset really rather than the middle of the night and it was up at the clubhouse itself rather than the carpark. I know myself that's it isn't safe and I wouldn't go up there at night. He was more of an acquaintance than a friend, I haven't seen him in at least 2 years os I don't know the full story, just saw it on Facebook.

I'd say it's just a bit of convenient place for the fighting, away from easy access for the gardaí and it has a bit of fame and spookiness about it. They would do it somewhere else if they couldn't do it there I just thought it would be nice if it wasn't happening at a touristy/family spot. Although I assume there wouldn't be much tourists or families up there at night.

I don't know about the vast quantities of concrete. I would hate that, but if they built a visitors centre the size of an average house near the existing car park I think it would be a good idea.

The visitors centre is going to have a cafe and usually a shop. It'll be a lot bigger than a family house.

Building the centre and car park will have no impact on the antisocial behaviour as that would require a working justice system, which isn't planned.

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ThisRegard

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To be honest, plenty of lonely mountain carparks are safe after dark, by far the Hellfire one is the dodgiest of them all.

The wooded walk around there is not the nicest either, non native trees and they're often felled anyway, as it is at the moment it's the least attractive section in that general area.

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Tabnabs

A much increased car park is badly needed at the Hellfire/Montpelier. It's downright dangerous with so many cars parked on a narrow country road. The proposed building is too big and hopefully ABP agree and cut it down by half. But the Hellfire club is probably the least wild or rural of all the hills in the area for the very reason of so many people using it for recreation. Law enforcement and crime is a huge issue, and one that is outside the scope of the CoCo.

A coffee shop, a place to sit down and a toilet. doesn't really sound all that bad in the greater scheme of things.

You also have to dig a little into the NO campaigners and ask why the Socialist Workers Party are providing the only opposition to this? And littering the surrounding neighbourhoods with posters about past meetings and fundraisers.

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Tabnabs

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Every weekend of the summer and around the school break/public holiday period at other times of the year. Try closer to midday and you will have to run the chicane and hope you don't hit a cyclist, pedestrian or car.

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Tabnabs

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In my experience, this is untrue and the car park desperately needs to be increased to take cars off the road. No other car park in the Dublin mountains suffers from this same problem.

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Tabnabs

Ticknock, only if the gate is closed and I've never turned back from Cruagh, even at peak times. But your experience shows there is a case for bigger car parks at all these locations.

Remarkable also that you regularly use the Hellfire carpark and it's never busy, but the two other local car parks have been an issue for you...

Grassey

Tabnabs wrote:

In my experience, this is untrue and the car park desperately needs to be increased to take cars off the road. No other car park in the Dublin mountains suffers from this same problem.

Clamping or towing cars parked on the double yellow lines would also solve the problem

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Tabnabs

Grassey wrote: »

Clamping or towing cars parked on the double yellow lines would also solve the problem

The cars don't park on the double yellow lines, they park further down the road towards Masseys. Ill mannered, lazy and stupid, but not illegal.

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Tabnabs

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So more yellow lines is preferable to a larger car park Genius idea.

Bohernabreena definitely suffers from the lack of parking. They opened up the pedestrian route to the local road up at Ballymorefinn, and this would have been an opportunity to allow more access. The difference here is, essentially, a boreen that runs around the valley and provides access to the lucky few people who live there. It's not a R road standard and will never be.

BTW, the upper reservoir is not in any way inaccessible, I meet regular walkers up there who do the 9km lap on an almost daily basis. Some lovely people and their dogs.

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ThisRegard

Grassey wrote: »

Clamping or towing cars parked on the double yellow lines would also solve the problem

There are no double yellow lines on Military Road around there.

Tabnabs

ThisRegard wrote: »

There are no double yellow lines on Military Road around there.

Google streetmap it. The wall along Massey's in particular.

seamus

The opposition to this appears to amount to "someone is making money out of this, therefore I oppose it" or "I don't like things being built, I prefer stuff to stay
as it is". And of course the Anti-Anything Alliance and Politics Before People are all over it too.

Hellfire and Massey's are a great resource but go underutilised. As Tabnabs says, you can't get near the place when the weather is vaguely decent and this has a knock-on effect of making the local roads dangerous and sometimes impassable due to careless parking.

There is no good reason to oppose a well-sized, paved car park and basic facilities like toilets. These at the very minimum will open up the mountain to more casual users like families, who have no interest in taking kids out of the car into a muddy field or trying to find a quiet spot behind a tree to do a pee.

As it stands you walk up to the top and there's a wreck of a building filled with rubbish and litter surrounded by stunning views and that's that. You walk back down and go home.
A visitor's centre or information office would let people then come back down and find out more information about what that stone shack was that they just walked up to, and a coffee shop would provide an income to Coillte that can be used to funds maintenance at the site and others around it.

The way people are going on, you'd swear they were going to tear down the Hellfire and stick a coffee shop in its place.

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seamus

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Regularly used does not mean well used.
When the weather is poor, nobody goes up there. When the weather is good, lots of people do but the numbers are badly limited by the availability of parking. Proper utilisation of these resources would aim to encourage more people up in the bad weather and allow capacity to handle demand in the good.

Massey's estate has functionally no parking available.

Itrs nonsense to say you cant get near the place when the weather is half decent - that applies to every scenic spot around the country.

I havent seen much of what Tabnabs refers to in terms of road parking outside of the carpark being actually locked.

Your second line there makes me question whether you go near the place at all. Go up there on a sunny weekend day between 11am and 3pm and it's absolutely manic.

Every scenic spot is busy on nice days, but the area around there is exceptional due to the lack of infrastructure. I would make a point of avoiding Stocking Lane completely on a nice day.

Most of the dublin mountain walks are toilet and coffee shop free and well used by children and adults.

And again, just because lots of people do it, doesn't mean that enough people do. Why not add facilities that will open it up to even more people?

What muddy field are you talking about? There IS a carpark and its not a field.

Hah, I didn't even realise I wrote field. The car park up there is a muddy mess on a bad day. It's a small issue, but enough to discourage people from going near it on bad days.

A wreck of a building? Its a ruin, its not supposed to be pristine - that is an absolutely bizarre description!

Yes - litter everywhere, all over the country though, not just there and I cant see a visitor centre changing that - you think they will be sending staff out to clean away litter?

If they are investing in the area, then they will invest in maintaining the building. Can you imagine being a tourist walking up there to look at a popular local attraction and finding the remnants of last night's bags of cans up there along with the graffiti and other rubbish?

Theres already a coffee shop right across from it, Timber Trove.

Yep, there is. Out the gate and 200m down the narrow road, which if not jam packed with cars, has people doing 70km/h+ down it.
Again, not very encouraging for people to use the amenity. Timber Trove is not in any way attached to the Hellfire and anyone trying for a nice, safe, family day out would need to drive the short distance between the two.

Maintenance of what exactly though? The whole point is that its an unspoilt area. No one wants a manicured woods walk.

You know, cleaning up rubbish, maybe providing some bins along the way, maybe cutting back some trees to provide better views.
A serviced and maintained walk doesn't have to sterile and manicured. There is a happy medium.

Well they are planning to pour a lot of concrete all over Montpelier Hill and destroy a lot of natural beauty and habitat. Its completely inappropriate for the area.

There's the hyperbole.

You might not be fond of it or utilise it much (clearly not given your description and lack of knowledge re the coffee shop) but some of us do and would hate to see it destroyed.

Yeah, I don't utilise it as much as I would, because as a local resident with young children, it's an epic journey to try and bring them on a muddy forest walk with no facilities close by and basically nowhere to park on a good day. In fact, I actively avoid it on that basis.

By "destroyed" you actually mean "changed". Apart from some rhetoric about "pouring concrete all over the place" and destruction of habitats (which ones, can you link to an environment impact survey?), you haven't really provided any reasons why this is a bad idea except, "I don't like and I don't think it's necessary because I'm alright Jack".

Grassey

seamus wrote: »

anyone trying for a nice, safe, family day out would need to drive the short distance between the two.

I agree on the reckless parking, and speeding (when cars are absent) however saying the solution to being safe is families need to drive 200m down the road is ridiculous. Speed ramps and a parking warden at peak times would make it perfectly safe.

thisregard wrote:

There are no double yellow lines on Military Road around there.

There are on the left heading uphill across from Hellfire carpark. However it is a continuous white line along the majority of that stretch of road - parking opposite a white line is an offence subject to a €40 fine.

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Tabnabs

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That might be why they are currently building a large additional car park in Marley Park. Seems to be some kind of correlation between the two issues...

seamus

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You haven't really you know. It appears to me to be just a personal dislike of changing somethings at the foot of the hill.

The argument about unspoiled natural landscapes doesn't really hold water when one of the main attractions to Montpelier Hill is the view out over Dublin City.

I havent seen much in the line of counter argument from you except a bit of hysteria about cars on the road which is only an issue when the weather is good at the weekends.

So you agree now it's an issue. And a regular one, at times when the amenity might get the most use.

So why not fix these issues?

Oh and not wanting to bring kids somewhere muddy or without a toilet - I imagine that puts most forest, woods or mountain walks out of the question for you.

Yes, it does. Me and a lot of other families. So why not expand the facilities available. It won't affect your ability to use it, and it will open up the area to lots of other people.

Win-win.

Marlay Park is down the road with all the amenities you require for a walk. Although the parking there is manic at the same times with cars parked out on the road too.

We use Marlay a lot. The front gate is ridiculous at any time, it's very poorly laid out and should be changed. The back gate being "manic" or completely full up is exceptional, once or twice a year at most. We'd rarely have difficulty getting parking, even on the nicest days.

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seamus

If the view is the thing, why dont the council utilise the currently going derelict gym on ticknock hill where the views are far better and access the dublin mountains from there? Itd cost a lot less than 19mill and theres already loads of parking, a building that could be used as a visitor centre, 5 minutes from ticknock forest and the locals would be delighted to see that site put to use as it attracts anti social behaviour.

Sure, but what's the attraction? From that building, what is the historical item?

I dont see them as issues tbh. Nice weather at the weekend in Ireland - maybe a few weekends a year? For a few hours at peak time? No different to any other attraction.

Most weekends at the summer tbh. But it also goes beyond that. It's a shame that it goes unused in poorer conditions. These improvements would attract people to the amenity year-round.

But what will be there to use? A concreted monstrosity? Who wants to go to that?

The proposed building is very low-profile and actually quite attractive IMO. As somewhere to go and something to do, plenty of people want to go to that.

Most of that nice walk up will simply - not be there - there will be a huge carpark (300 car spaces) and a 1000 square metre visitor centre.

It's just plain incorrect to say that most of the walk won't be there. The only altered section will be the first part out of the car park. The majority of the route will remain untouched, both the direct path up and the longer path around. The visitor's centre is planned to be located at that first intersection of the two paths, low profile and looking out over Massey's. Once you've gone 50m up that path and into the second turn you won't even be able to see it any more.

Like I say, it's not like they're building it right on top of the Hellfire or putting the carpark right up at the lodge. They're taking a small initial section of the walk and restructuring it to make it a more open and available amenity. That's it.

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seamus

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Yeah, that's the plan:



Which is the section in red below;



So you can see the vast majority of the trail(s) and the mountain will be untouched. You can even see from the plan that they won't be just pulling everything down and concreting over it. The woodland will be a key part of the development, surrounding the structures that are built.

1000 sq. m is really not that big at all.

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Grassey

I think this is right.

Red Circle where the car park goes
Orange Circle the visitors centre.



That offset roundabout also looks dangerous for any cyclist descending that road.

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seamus

Lol, it is if you assume the entire areas under the circles are going to be paved.

Below are the actual areas affected. Orange being the visitors centre. That's 1,000 sqm to scale btw, the footprint of the building is half that again if they stick on two stories.



Practically all of the trails will remain intact, though I would probably expect the trail from the car park to be resurfaced, if not with tarmac then with more stone.

So you can see that the current walk will remain mostly untouched.

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seamus

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It's on a steep slope, so it will almost certainly have at least two stories, if not 3. Otherwise they'd have to put it on stilts. The draft drawings indicate two stories on the east slope and a single storey on the west.

The pics posted are even worse than I thought tbh.

AND they only show the sites of the visitor centre and carpark, nothing about toilets, cafe, exhibition space, etc....

The 1000 sqm space includes all of these things, they're not separate buildings.

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seamus

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Well you have no reason not to.

Anyway, here is reason to believe; https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_v5kyl2pVzZMllmSU9QZ202Rk0/view

Slide 9 gives the layout of the building. Actually two buildings nearly 1,500sqm in size. Almost half of the space is intended to be an "events space" presumably a room one can book for conferences, etc.
And I stand corrected as it will in fact be on stilts on the eastern side. But a smaller building of 800sq.m.

The cafe will be 220sqm, with a "retail" space, presumably for souvenirs or something, and what looks like a tuck shop.

All seems pretty reasonable to me.

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daveyeh

Doesn't look that bad to me. Calm down ffs.

ThisRegard

Grassey wrote: »

There are on the left heading uphill across from Hellfire carpark. However it is a continuous white line along the majority of that stretch of road - parking opposite a white line is an offence subject to a €40 fine.

Fair enough, I was picturing down the hill.

As for the natural beauty argument, it's man made "beauty" given it's a plantation of non native trees. The hills are full of such places.

ExitEire

This hill (technically it is a "hill" as it doesn't have the height to be officially known as a mountain), properly known as Montpelier Hill, is home to the Hellfire Club ruin at the summit, and has been a place of peace and tranquility for generations of Dubliners, especially those living within its shadows around south county Dublin.

For generations and generations of Dublin people, this quiet haven of peace and tranquility, going back as far as the 1800's when a horse and carriage were required to access the area unless you happened to be quite local, has been a hugely welcome refuge and a break from city life in times of stress & trial. There is something about the 45 odd minute walk to the summit, that just allows you to unwind and gently let go of a problem or something that has been weighing you down in life.

The walk to the summit, it's like you have been blessed with a chance to think through a problem while walking through the most amazing and beautiful forest trails that Dublin has to offer. When you get to the summit and you see Dublin county and Dublin Bay laid out before you, and you can see all your favorite landmarks, the Popes Cross in the Phoenix Park, the Spire, the piers at Dun Laoghaire, it all feels a bit more manageable, whatever it was that brought you up the hill to walk it off, and never has that been more true than in the current times, when we are all wondering what is around the corner these days and what kind of hardship will we be confronted with next?

I genuinely shudder to think that some kind of stupid ugly paved concrete monstrosity is now going to be made of this beautifully isolated hilltop and its surroundings. The only justification that is now being offered for this project by our political overlord class, is that apparently it will have a coffee shop and a restaurant at the summit. I'm sure we will be getting value for money there as taxpayers after 15 million Euro of property taxes and commercial rates has spent, (for 15 million Euro, read 75 million Euro because after all, this is Ireland!), and in return we will be getting (if we are lucky!), a coffee shop and a restaurant. This has "CELTIC TIGER" bullsh*t stamped all over it, the plans that South Dublin County Council have for this stunningly beautiful, isolated and undisturbed place.

There is a cafe within a stones throw of the Hellfire Club car park, known as Timber Trove, that I can personally vouch for. They do fantastic food and coffees and their homemade cakes are only to die for. There is no need for a coffee shop at this location to justify a spend of taxpayers money of 15 million Euro, there is already a fantastic coffee shop across the road from the Hellfire Club car park that is very frequently used by walkers.

There are very few things left in this country in terms of our history and culture, that we haven't bulldozed over, or made an unholy spectacle out of, or managed to "commercialise", or try to change with our "Celtic Tiger" agenda, into some sort of a money spinner, half of those ideas are most likely now still in NAMA.

Let's just try to learn at least one lesson from those horribly vulgar brash Celtic Tiger days and let's just leave this place alone, for once let's just leave something alone. It has an special sort of isolated and dark beauty that is there for anyone who wishes to see it on any day of the week and let's save ourselves 15 million Euro for a restaurant and a coffee shop and just use the fantastic coffee shop that is a 1 minute walk from the Hellfire Club carpark.

Dublin is in desperate need of social and affordable housing, and it is nothing less than insane and criminal, that those who we elect to represent us publicly, and those who we rely on to spend our money wisely, appear to have gotten a notion into their heads that your property tax and your commercial rates, can be foolishly and wantonly p*ssed away by them in an attempt to turn this beautiful haunting summit into a Celtic Tiger concreted vulgar spectacle, money that if you ask any Dubliner, should be spent on attending to our ever worsening housing crisis.

errlloyd

This is such a weird conversation.

There are a few people here who really like the Hellfire club as it is - and they will dislike this development. But this development will almost certainly make the hellfire club more popular and it will serve a greater number of people.

So what you really need to prove is why the Hellfire club should remain an exclusive escape for Dubliners.

Is it particularly historically important and would the development damage that? Not really. Not moreso than say Glendaloch - and we had no problem sticking all sorts of developments up there. Any history of note would certainly become more accessible to the public with a visitor centre.

Is it particularly beautiful, and will this development ruin that beauty? It's fine. As many have pointed out the coniferous woods are foreign and they are farmed. There are more beautiful hills to walk dogs and escape capitalism in the Dublin mountains.

The casual and accessible walking spots in this city are becoming more popular. It's a good thing. It's healthy. The compromise is that those of us escaping the crowds need to go further. It's not ideal, but it's not like they're covering it in apartments either.

khamilto

There are a few people here who really like the Hellfire club as it is - and they will dislike this development. But this development will almost certainly make the hellfire club more popular and it will serve a greater number of people.

It won't make the Hellfire Club more popular, the Hellfire Club is (as the previous poster alluded to) the experience of parking and walking up to the ruin. There's a better viewpoint slightly further up the Military Road if you just want to look out over Dublin, and plenty more dotted nearby where you don't have to walk through trees and up a slope. If you want somewhere that is the modern version of family friend (i.e. pampered and spoiled and every possible need catered to), there are other options. Not everywhere in Ireland needs to be reduced to such craven levels.

I've been going up Hellfire Club, Cruagh, Tibradden, Kilmashogue, Bohernabreena, Lough Bray, Kippure etc for 28 years. I started at age 4. Not everything has to be family friendly. Nature doesn't have to be destroyed (metaphorically and often physically) to make something easy, casual, family friendly. Why does the Hellfire Club need an interpretative centre? A visitor centre? A shop? Café fair enough, some toilets, a bigger car park and some meaningful security. The rest? The rest is just rubbish and shows how facile people have become.

"I want to experience nature, the rugged outdoors, but only if it has copious parking, is easily accessible, has an interpretative centre to make me feel fantastic about how in touch I am with mother nature and the wild, will sell me notebooks and postcards, is family friendly to babies, stops allowing people to visit outside business hours, and offers tree top walks."

What the hell is wrong with you people? Go to Marlay Park, the seaside, or just go to a Starbucks and look at a picture book about nature. It would appear that that is more on the level that the kind of people excited by this plan are looking for.

As (I think) ...... pointed out, they could have easily bought Orlagh and turned that into a hub for accessing the Hellfire Club and the wider Dublin Mountains. Copious amounts of existing space for a museum/visitor centre on the local area, easy to develop parking and ancillary facilities without taking away from natural beauty, and the entrance to it opens directly onto a road that was recently upgraded and is only 1,700 metres from the M50.

Of course, it makes more sense for the current plans.

:rolleyes:

errlloyd

I don't really think anyone can dispute that these facilities will make more people visit the Hellfire club than currently visit the Hellfire club. The spots in Dublin that have user friendly easy access nature are all way over capacity right now. There is clearly demand for more.

khamilto wrote: »

What the hell is wrong with you people? Go to Marlay Park, the seaside, or just go to a Starbucks and look at a picture book about nature. It would appear that that is more on the level that the kind of people excited by this plan are looking for.

I understand your frustrations here, but I think this paragraph comes across as snobby and elitist. Maybe you don't think people should have coffee and carparks that's your choice. If I asked an extreme outdoor adventurer they would say they don't like gravel trails and coniferous forestry. Maybe I'd find a complete naturist who doesn't believe in hiking boots or packed lunches and believes Montpellier Hill should only be for people who want to hunt their dinner and forage their lunch. They would probably consider you pampered and spoiled.

Just because The Hellfire club is set up the way you like it now, doesn't give anyone ownership of it. It's owned by the people of Ireland. And it should be set up in a way that gives the most possible people the most possible enjoyment. Personally I'll be delighted if it means the lazy parents of uninspired children take their kids up to foothills for a day instead of to Starbucks. Perhaps they'll realise that a child gets an awful lot more out of a walk than a Latté, and they might join us on Kippure soon enough.