proposed €19m tourist development of the HellFire Club

RosieJoe

I never even heard of this proposed development but I was glad to read about the opposition of it today, full article here

GarIT

There could be some positives if there is no entrance fee.

It would most likely put an end to the Facebook group arranging bare knuckle boxing after dark. A friend of mine went up there innocently and had a glass bottle smashed over his head because he came across the wrong people. It really isn't safe after dark up there.

It will probably also prevent the odd condom and needle that does be found up there.

It's a lovely place during the day but it's a dangerous kip after dark.

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Grassey

Destroying the majority of the wooded walk to the hellfire to put in more car spaces, a huge glass 'visitor centre' and a skywalk to Massey Woods is a joke.

They would have been better off buying some of the lands below the woods for the car park and having a longer trail up to join the existing trails.

I agree that parking is limited currently and an issue but the current plans seem to solve that at the expense of the reason people head up there in the first place!!!

GarIT

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I believe he was up there around 8, less than a month ago, just after sunset really rather than the middle of the night and it was up at the clubhouse itself rather than the carpark. I know myself that's it isn't safe and I wouldn't go up there at night. He was more of an acquaintance than a friend, I haven't seen him in at least 2 years os I don't know the full story, just saw it on Facebook.

I'd say it's just a bit of convenient place for the fighting, away from easy access for the gardaí and it has a bit of fame and spookiness about it. They would do it somewhere else if they couldn't do it there I just thought it would be nice if it wasn't happening at a touristy/family spot. Although I assume there wouldn't be much tourists or families up there at night.

I don't know about the vast quantities of concrete. I would hate that, but if they built a visitors centre the size of an average house near the existing car park I think it would be a good idea.

Jellybaby1

Someone will make money out of that plan to be sure. Everyone is aware that there is a lot of undesirable activity in that area and not just at night. The mess to be found on the hillside tells the obvious story. I'm of two minds about the plan, something needs to be done but not at any cost.

Del2005

GarIT wrote: »

I believe he was up there around 8, less than a month ago, just after sunset really rather than the middle of the night and it was up at the clubhouse itself rather than the carpark. I know myself that's it isn't safe and I wouldn't go up there at night. He was more of an acquaintance than a friend, I haven't seen him in at least 2 years os I don't know the full story, just saw it on Facebook.

I'd say it's just a bit of convenient place for the fighting, away from easy access for the gardaí and it has a bit of fame and spookiness about it. They would do it somewhere else if they couldn't do it there I just thought it would be nice if it wasn't happening at a touristy/family spot. Although I assume there wouldn't be much tourists or families up there at night.

I don't know about the vast quantities of concrete. I would hate that, but if they built a visitors centre the size of an average house near the existing car park I think it would be a good idea.

The visitors centre is going to have a cafe and usually a shop. It'll be a lot bigger than a family house.

Building the centre and car park will have no impact on the antisocial behaviour as that would require a working justice system, which isn't planned.

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ThisRegard

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To be honest, plenty of lonely mountain carparks are safe after dark, by far the Hellfire one is the dodgiest of them all.

The wooded walk around there is not the nicest either, non native trees and they're often felled anyway, as it is at the moment it's the least attractive section in that general area.

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Tabnabs

A much increased car park is badly needed at the Hellfire/Montpelier. It's downright dangerous with so many cars parked on a narrow country road. The proposed building is too big and hopefully ABP agree and cut it down by half. But the Hellfire club is probably the least wild or rural of all the hills in the area for the very reason of so many people using it for recreation. Law enforcement and crime is a huge issue, and one that is outside the scope of the CoCo.

A coffee shop, a place to sit down and a toilet. doesn't really sound all that bad in the greater scheme of things.

You also have to dig a little into the NO campaigners and ask why the Socialist Workers Party are providing the only opposition to this? And littering the surrounding neighbourhoods with posters about past meetings and fundraisers.

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Tabnabs

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Every weekend of the summer and around the school break/public holiday period at other times of the year. Try closer to midday and you will have to run the chicane and hope you don't hit a cyclist, pedestrian or car.

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Tabnabs

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In my experience, this is untrue and the car park desperately needs to be increased to take cars off the road. No other car park in the Dublin mountains suffers from this same problem.

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Tabnabs

Ticknock, only if the gate is closed and I've never turned back from Cruagh, even at peak times. But your experience shows there is a case for bigger car parks at all these locations.

Remarkable also that you regularly use the Hellfire carpark and it's never busy, but the two other local car parks have been an issue for you...

Grassey

Tabnabs wrote:

In my experience, this is untrue and the car park desperately needs to be increased to take cars off the road. No other car park in the Dublin mountains suffers from this same problem.

Clamping or towing cars parked on the double yellow lines would also solve the problem

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Tabnabs

Grassey wrote: »

Clamping or towing cars parked on the double yellow lines would also solve the problem

The cars don't park on the double yellow lines, they park further down the road towards Masseys. Ill mannered, lazy and stupid, but not illegal.

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Tabnabs

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So more yellow lines is preferable to a larger car park Genius idea.

Bohernabreena definitely suffers from the lack of parking. They opened up the pedestrian route to the local road up at Ballymorefinn, and this would have been an opportunity to allow more access. The difference here is, essentially, a boreen that runs around the valley and provides access to the lucky few people who live there. It's not a R road standard and will never be.

BTW, the upper reservoir is not in any way inaccessible, I meet regular walkers up there who do the 9km lap on an almost daily basis. Some lovely people and their dogs.

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ThisRegard

Grassey wrote: »

Clamping or towing cars parked on the double yellow lines would also solve the problem

There are no double yellow lines on Military Road around there.

Tabnabs

ThisRegard wrote: »

There are no double yellow lines on Military Road around there.

Google streetmap it. The wall along Massey's in particular.

seamus

The opposition to this appears to amount to "someone is making money out of this, therefore I oppose it" or "I don't like things being built, I prefer stuff to stay
as it is". And of course the Anti-Anything Alliance and Politics Before People are all over it too.

Hellfire and Massey's are a great resource but go underutilised. As Tabnabs says, you can't get near the place when the weather is vaguely decent and this has a knock-on effect of making the local roads dangerous and sometimes impassable due to careless parking.

There is no good reason to oppose a well-sized, paved car park and basic facilities like toilets. These at the very minimum will open up the mountain to more casual users like families, who have no interest in taking kids out of the car into a muddy field or trying to find a quiet spot behind a tree to do a pee.

As it stands you walk up to the top and there's a wreck of a building filled with rubbish and litter surrounded by stunning views and that's that. You walk back down and go home.
A visitor's centre or information office would let people then come back down and find out more information about what that stone shack was that they just walked up to, and a coffee shop would provide an income to Coillte that can be used to funds maintenance at the site and others around it.

The way people are going on, you'd swear they were going to tear down the Hellfire and stick a coffee shop in its place.

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seamus

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Regularly used does not mean well used.
When the weather is poor, nobody goes up there. When the weather is good, lots of people do but the numbers are badly limited by the availability of parking. Proper utilisation of these resources would aim to encourage more people up in the bad weather and allow capacity to handle demand in the good.

Massey's estate has functionally no parking available.

Itrs nonsense to say you cant get near the place when the weather is half decent - that applies to every scenic spot around the country.

I havent seen much of what Tabnabs refers to in terms of road parking outside of the carpark being actually locked.

Your second line there makes me question whether you go near the place at all. Go up there on a sunny weekend day between 11am and 3pm and it's absolutely manic.

Every scenic spot is busy on nice days, but the area around there is exceptional due to the lack of infrastructure. I would make a point of avoiding Stocking Lane completely on a nice day.

Most of the dublin mountain walks are toilet and coffee shop free and well used by children and adults.

And again, just because lots of people do it, doesn't mean that enough people do. Why not add facilities that will open it up to even more people?

What muddy field are you talking about? There IS a carpark and its not a field.

Hah, I didn't even realise I wrote field. The car park up there is a muddy mess on a bad day. It's a small issue, but enough to discourage people from going near it on bad days.

A wreck of a building? Its a ruin, its not supposed to be pristine - that is an absolutely bizarre description!

Yes - litter everywhere, all over the country though, not just there and I cant see a visitor centre changing that - you think they will be sending staff out to clean away litter?

If they are investing in the area, then they will invest in maintaining the building. Can you imagine being a tourist walking up there to look at a popular local attraction and finding the remnants of last night's bags of cans up there along with the graffiti and other rubbish?

Theres already a coffee shop right across from it, Timber Trove.

Yep, there is. Out the gate and 200m down the narrow road, which if not jam packed with cars, has people doing 70km/h+ down it.
Again, not very encouraging for people to use the amenity. Timber Trove is not in any way attached to the Hellfire and anyone trying for a nice, safe, family day out would need to drive the short distance between the two.

Maintenance of what exactly though? The whole point is that its an unspoilt area. No one wants a manicured woods walk.

You know, cleaning up rubbish, maybe providing some bins along the way, maybe cutting back some trees to provide better views.
A serviced and maintained walk doesn't have to sterile and manicured. There is a happy medium.

Well they are planning to pour a lot of concrete all over Montpelier Hill and destroy a lot of natural beauty and habitat. Its completely inappropriate for the area.

There's the hyperbole.

You might not be fond of it or utilise it much (clearly not given your description and lack of knowledge re the coffee shop) but some of us do and would hate to see it destroyed.

Yeah, I don't utilise it as much as I would, because as a local resident with young children, it's an epic journey to try and bring them on a muddy forest walk with no facilities close by and basically nowhere to park on a good day. In fact, I actively avoid it on that basis.

By "destroyed" you actually mean "changed". Apart from some rhetoric about "pouring concrete all over the place" and destruction of habitats (which ones, can you link to an environment impact survey?), you haven't really provided any reasons why this is a bad idea except, "I don't like and I don't think it's necessary because I'm alright Jack".

Grassey

seamus wrote: »

anyone trying for a nice, safe, family day out would need to drive the short distance between the two.

I agree on the reckless parking, and speeding (when cars are absent) however saying the solution to being safe is families need to drive 200m down the road is ridiculous. Speed ramps and a parking warden at peak times would make it perfectly safe.

thisregard wrote:

There are no double yellow lines on Military Road around there.

There are on the left heading uphill across from Hellfire carpark. However it is a continuous white line along the majority of that stretch of road - parking opposite a white line is an offence subject to a €40 fine.

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Tabnabs

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That might be why they are currently building a large additional car park in Marley Park. Seems to be some kind of correlation between the two issues...