Terrorist Attack in Manchester (Read MOD WARNING in OP Updated 24/05/2017))

neverever1

Danzy wrote: »

and treble that are dying at the hands of men like that bomber, his father, the men his local Mosque invite to speak to them.

The invasion of Iraq and Libya were completely wrong, bombing Isis in Syria was the correct thing to do and probably has prevented the whole region having a civil war, at the least it stopped genocide in Northern Iraq.

It really is quite a mess that's been created. I think a lot of the attacks in Europe are justified in the heads of these people by a 'see how you like it' type of thinking. It's difficult to see any solution to this now, there's going to be far more bloodshed before we see any progress.
Isis must be defeated but I feel they will just be replaced and the cycle will continue. The past actions of America/Britain should really be looked at with shame by people in those countries, the rest of us should look at them with anger as they have put us all in danger and cost so many lives.

Coffee Fulled Runner

neverever1 wrote: »

It may not be comfortable to admit but far more children and innocents are dying every week at the hands of the west than this attack in Manchester.

Are you an apologist for IS or on a wind up here? There will always be a "excuse" for these terrorist attacks. They hate our culture and won't stop until the black flag is flying over every city in Europe, even if the "west" stopped it's interface in Muslim countries tomorrow. Political islam and the western way of life can't coincide.

neverever1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So what should be done with ISIS? Should the "west" just sit back and watch them commit genocide after genocide?

As I've just explained above, it's hard to know what to do now.

neverever1

Coffee Fulled Runner wrote: »

Are you an apologist for IS or on a wind up here? There will always be a "excuse" for these terrorist attacks. They hate our culture and won't stop until the black flag is flying over every city in Europe, even if the "west" stopped it's interface in Muslim countries tomorrow. Political islam and the western way of life can't coincide.

These attacks in Europe are disgusting. There is no excuse. We have to look at how they were created and how their numbers continue to grow however.

Cantona's Collars

Serial troll and all round cnut Katie Hopkins has left LBC radio immediately over her comments about the bombing.Couldn't happen to a nicer person.


https://twitter.com/ManMadeMoon/status/868033351944359936

sjb25

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So what should be done with ISIS? Should the "west" just sit back and watch them commit genocide after genocide?

According to some here the west shouldn't do anything it seems except get around a table and talk nicely to these lads.

The same people would be out marching if western governments said right fine that's it leave them at it we are doing nothing anymore and Isis etc started taking control and committing genocide etc same people would be calling for intervention.

DrumSteve

neverever1 wrote: »

As I've just explained above, it's hard to know what to do now.

Well for a start we could probably make a small request of the Saudis to stop funding them, that might help.

gitzy16v

xckjoo wrote: »

You do know that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic Religions don't you? They aren't that different.

Yes I do...What's your point?

neverever1

DrumSteve wrote: »

Well for a start we could probably make a small request of the Saudis to stop funding them, that might help.

Oh yes Saudi Arabia. How was that created again? Are they not friends of America and Britain?

Danzy

murpho999 wrote: »

I see they now have armed police on trains in the UK now.

I find this a totally over the top reaction. I would not like to be on a train with this.

Also, I don't see how it prevents a guy from getting on and blowing himself up.

A terrorist can quickly move to another target very easily.

It is not that long ago that a Jihadi got on a train with an AK47 and several clips of ammunition, planning to have a slow jaunt through the train, taking his shots at will.

It is correct that even if they had an armed police man on every corner it would not prevent attacks but it will mean a switch to a level of security that will be more akin to the 6 Counties before the war ended than anything in the last 20 years.

Danzy

neverever1 wrote: »

Oh yes Saudi Arabia. How was that created again? Are they not friends of America and Britain?

The merging of a warlord and his tribe with a strict Militant Islamic School of thought in the 18th Century, years later Larry of Arabia and British guns against the Ottomans. The Ottomans who were the Islamic State of their day but on a larger and crueler scale.

Gone Drinking

http://news.sky.com/story/damon-smith-jailed-for-leaving-bomb-on-jubilee-line-tube-train-10893731

This guy is only after getting 15 years. He left a viable explosive (bag full of ball bearings) on a train but the timer failed.

Only 15 ****ing years? How is that possible? He should have gotten 15 years for every person that was in that carriage when it didn't go off.

Snake Plisken

zerks wrote: »

Serial troll and all round cnut Katie Hopkins has left LBC radio immediately over her comments about the bombing.Couldn't happen to a nicer person.


https://twitter.com/ManMadeMoon/status/868033351944359936

That's a shame that the liberal lefties like that idiot Owen Jones forced her out similarly to how he got the Sky News presenter fired!

murpho999

sjb25 wrote: »

Why they are not going to shoot you!
The are extremely well trained firearms officers.
I'd rather them on the train as a preventive measure to make the terrorist think twice, than be sitting beside jihadi Jim and his back pack

Would it not be better if the bag was checked beforehand so that there is no bombs on the train?

I don't like being around guns, nothing comforting about them and I fail to see how they will stop a terrorist.
What would a guy who's about to blow himself up at the push of button fear an armed policeman for?

Danzy wrote: »

It is not that long ago that a Jihadi got on a train with an AK47 and several clips of ammunition, planning to have a slow jaunt through the train, taking his shots at will.

It is correct that even if they had an armed police man on every corner it would not prevent attacks but it will mean a switch to a level of security that will be more akin to the 6 Counties before the war ended than anything in the last 20 years.

That was August 2015 and there has not been a train incident since.

I just don't see the point of these officers.

In fact I don't see the point of them anywhere as these guys can just strike anywhere.

Guarding public places like Westminster or Buckingham Palace is a complete waste of time.

Terrorist can do just as much damage in a shopping centre or an art gallery such as Tate Modern.

Danzy

The emphasis that Corbyn is putting on Britain's foreign policy would carry weight if it had been balanced over the years with a challenge to Ultra Conservative,even fascist attitudes in the Islamic Community in Britain.


If Labour MPs who spoke at gender segregated meetings were publicly dressed down and told they would be expelled from the party if they did it again, if the rampant anti-semitism was challenged, the extreme homophobia challenged, the sectarian hatred of little Islamic sects like the Ahmadiyya etc, for which people have been killed. The horrendous attitudes to women and girls and on and on and on.

It is a bit much to talk about progressive values when they are dumped out the window at the first sign of a voting block.

Credibility is completely shot which is unfortunate because there is some truth in the foreign policy argument but it is not the cause or the full picture.

sjb25

murpho999 wrote: »

Would it not be better if the bag was checked beforehand so that there is no bombs on the train?

I don't like being around guns, nothing comforting about them and I fail to see how they will stop a terrorist.
What would a guy who's about to blow himself up at the push of button fear an armed policeman for?



That was August 15 and there has not been a train incident since.

I just don't see the point of these officers.

In fact I don't see the point of them anywhere as these guys can just strike anywhere.

Guarding public places like Westminster or Buckingham Palace is a complete waste of time.

Terrorist can do just as much damage in a shopping centre or an art gallery such as Tate Modern.

Nothing scary about guns it's the people in control of them you need to worry about (maybe the fact I've been around firearms all my life changed my perspective but they are not scary)

Yes bag checks are a good idea aswell
But you will have armed officers at these bag checks aswell.
I was in Disneyland in Paris before Christmas you had load of armed soldiers and police at the gates along with bag searches
They didn't make me nervous more safe actually and here was the women in front of us complaining her bag was being searched and it was a disgrace (you can't fix stupid) but shows the security services will never be right.

Yes these guys can strike anywhere as you say but how many times have you heard of them directly taking on armed officers not often the rather blow up unarmed civilians and children,
Yes armed officers can't stop all attacks but if they stop one or make a terrorist think twice they are worthwhile

DEFTLEFTHAND

Snake Plisken wrote: »

That's a shame that the liberal lefties like that idiot Owen Jones forced her out similarly to how he got the Sky News presenter fired!

Strange individual that Jones.

He seems to be utterly intolerant to those with a different viewpoint to his own.

Fratton Fred

neverever1 wrote: »

As I've just explained above, it's hard to know what to do now.

well, sit on the fence and throw around abject criticism seems to be your approach.

ISIS are marching around Northern Iraq and Syria committing atrocities on an hourly basis. They have killed thousands upon thousands "To use your phrase) and have even attempted to wipe out an entire religion.

If you are going to complain about the "West" bombing, at least have the decency to offer your solution.

sjb25 wrote: »

According to some here the west shouldn't do anything it seems except get around a table and talk nicely to these lads.

The same people would be out marching if western governments said right fine that's it leave them at it we are doing nothing anymore and Isis etc started taking control and committing genocide etc same people would be calling for intervention.

I recall prior to the war in Afghanistan, how everyone was demanding the "West" do something about the Taliban, who at that time had banned women from working, leaving the house unaccompanied and without a burka etc. Public stoning of women who disobeyed were taking place daily in Kabul's football stadium (obviously, football had been banned by this time) and all the liberal lefty types were outraged and demanding something be done.

So, something was done. The Northern alliance were supported, the Taliban overthrown and elections held, with the UN assisting the new government by providing a security assistance force.

and so the same liberal lefty types complained about the West bombing Afghanistan :rolleyes:

SkepticQuark

Gone Drinking wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/damon-smith-jailed-for-leaving-bomb-on-jubilee-line-tube-train-10893731

This guy is only after getting 15 years. He left a viable explosive (bag full of ball bearings) on a train but the timer failed.

Only 15 ****ing years? How is that possible? He should have gotten 15 years for every person that was in that carriage when it didn't go off.

Agree with you about this but honestly if he's apparently autistic and "has a fixation with guns, explosives and other weapons." why on earth is he not better supervised by somebody in the first place? Even when he's released he's surely not mentally stable enough to be just dumped back into society.

DrumSteve

neverever1 wrote: »

Oh yes Saudi Arabia. How was that created again? Are they not friends of America and Britain?

They are, but they have a lot of money. And they give that money to fund Wahabbi preachers.

ilkhanid

neverever1 wrote: »

No, you said the British didn't bomb them and there was barely any bombers at that time. You were caught out bluffing.
This attempted carve up for their own gain added with further bombing campaigns etc has had a major hand to play in attacks that have been suffered in Europe.
The victims families in Manchester should be angry at the perpetrators but also angry at their own government!

Oh, dear God, a hundred years ago, you said. 1917 during the time of the Arab Revolt, not the Arab insurrection.

Theresa May has nothing to apolgise for. She wasn't alive in 1921.
The Arabs have to take responsibilty for their own failures. Independence after the second World War:coup after coup, Military rule, factionalism, tribalism....Saddam, a million dead in the war with Iran. If you think this sorry episode hadn't at least as much to do with the wreckage that was Iraq, you're deluded. Rather like the mentality of some Irish:blame the Brits.
Did our governments let the Catholic Church be the de facto rulers of Ireland. No, that was the fault of the British. Did our sorry record of protectionism have anything to do with our economic backwardness. No, it was the fault of the British. Our record of clientelism and populism..that was the fault of the British. And so on, and on...ad nauseum

BoatMad wrote: »

we cant wipe out IS, to do that in reality youd need to wipe out a fair proportion of ME Sunnis

Unlikely. The Sunnis of Iraq have been disabused of the belief that IS are saviours. Many of them have lived under IS rule,and they're glad to escape. Most Sunnis don't want a Caliphate or to exterminate non-Sunnis. They just want equal rights under the Shia regime.
Notice how some some of the Sunnis that had formerly been fighting the American occupation eventually turned on the Jihadis?

BoatMad wrote: »

Occams Razor , she suggested he was radicalised by seeing images of innocent children die in the ME
or do you believe that western bullets and bombs inherently just strike " evil" people

No, they don't and they didn't in 1944 either.
In any case, I wonder why seeing images if innocent children killed by Assad's barrel bombings or the images of the children orphaned by Assad's militias or by IS and jabat 'al Nusra didn't impress him. He was very picky which children he chose to be radicalised by.

neverever1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

well, sit on the fence and throw around abject criticism seems to be your approach.

ISIS are marching around Northern Iraq and Syria committing atrocities on an hourly basis. They have killed thousands upon thousands "To use your phrase) and have even attempted to wipe out an entire religion.

If you are going to complain about the "West" bombing, at least have the decency to offer your solution.

I'm just going to re-post what I already said:

It really is quite a mess that's been created. I think a lot of the attacks in Europe are justified in the heads of these people by a 'see how you like it' type of thinking. It's difficult to see any solution to this now, there's going to be far more bloodshed before we see any progress.
Isis must be defeated but I feel they will just be replaced and the cycle will continue. The past actions of America/Britain should really be looked at with shame by people in those countries, the rest of us should look at them with anger as they have put us all in danger and cost so many lives.

neverever1

DrumSteve wrote: »

They are, but they have a lot of money. And they give that money to fund Wahabbi preachers.

Oh yes so why are America and Britain best friends with them?

neverever1

ilkhanid wrote: »

Oh, dear God, a hundred years ago, you said. 1917 during the time of the Arab Revolt, not the Arab insurrection.

Theresa May has nothing to apolgise for. She wasn't alive in 1921.
The Arabs have to take responsibilty for their own failures. Independence after the second World War:coup after coup, Military rule, factionalism, tribalism....Saddam, a million dead in the war with Iran. If you think this sorry episode hadn't at least as much to do with the wreckage that was Iraq, you're deluded. Rather like the mentality of some Irish:blame the Brits.
Did our governments let the Catholic Church be the de facto rulers of Ireland. No, that was the fault of the British. Did our sorry record of protectionism have anything to do with our economic backwardness. No, it was the fault of the British. Our record of clientelism and populism..that was the fault of the British. And so on, and on...ad nauseum

You said there was barely any bombers at the time. You were shown up to be talking nonsense.

I'm afraid Britain's bombing campaign against the Middle East didn't finish in 1921! Oh that's great, it's all their fault, it wasn't that others tried to carve their land up, not that others continually flattened their countries, not that thousands upon thousands were slaughtered, it never is the fault of the British is it? Their murder was always good murder?

How many countries has Ireland flattened?

wakka12

Gone Drinking wrote: »

http://news.sky.com/story/damon-smith-jailed-for-leaving-bomb-on-jubilee-line-tube-train-10893731

This guy is only after getting 15 years. He left a viable explosive (bag full of ball bearings) on a train but the timer failed.

Only 15 ****ing years? How is that possible? He should have gotten 15 years for every person that was in that carriage when it didn't go off.

Regardless of intent the crime is only attempted murder/possesion of illegal weapons etc not actual murder, but yeh I hope he is kept in some kind of institution for much much longer and isn't allowed into normal society again.

wakka12

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Strange individual that Jones.

He seems to be utterly intolerant to those with a different viewpoint to his own.

To be fair, she's not the most reasonable of people..

Danzy

neverever1 wrote: »

Oh yes so why are America and Britain best friends with them?

Same reason that nearly every country in the World is.

buried

Danzy wrote: »

Same reason that nearly every country in the World is.

Apart from Iran, Syria and Russia

neverever1

neverever1 wrote: »

So you think one country should be bombed because of the murderous actions of a few but it's completely wrong for another country to be bombed despite their murderous actions?

When did qualifying degrees of wrongness equate to approval?

It's wrong to kill innocent people. Period.

The question is, is it more wrong to deliberately kill, say, 5 people, while trying to save several hundred, or is it more wrong to deliberately kill several hundred people, just because they don't agree with you?

ilkhanid

ilkhanid wrote: »

Rather like the mentality of some Irish:blame the Brits.
Did our governments let the Catholic Church be the de facto rulers of Ireland. No, that was the fault of the British. Did our sorry record of protectionism have anything to do with our economic backwardness. No, it was the fault of the British. Our record of clientelism and populism..that was the fault of the British. And so on, and on...ad nauseum

There are a lot of things the British were responsible for in Ireland.

The things you claim to believe the Irish people hold successive British Governments responsible for might best be described as delusional.