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Homophobia still alive in modern Ireland

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    #62
    Grey Wind
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Grey Wind


    wordofwarning wrote: »
    Of course it is homophobic. No one disputes that.

    But if someone in the 1.3 m people who live in Dublin wrote the N on a wall in Town. Does that make Ireland a nation of racists? Does your neighbour making a derogatory remark mean you are of a similar mindset?

    No one is disputing this is a hateful thing to say. But saying that what a single person said/wrote reflects the views of the 4.5m residents in Ireland is bizarre to say the least.
    Nobody is saying that this incident reflects the view of every person in Ireland. We're saying it's a reminder that these views are still prevalent in this country, as evident by the examples listed in this thread and the experiences of virtually any gay person.

    What's really bizarre to me is a bunch of straight people trying to dictate how much of a problem homophobia is.


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    #63
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    baby and crumble wrote: »
    I disagree. Why should we be ok with some of our population being treated unequally? "Just because"? That's not good enough

    Most of the population feel they're been treated unequally.
    I get abused on the street because I'm fat and I waddle as opposed to walk.
    Non-white people are abused.
    Old people are discriminated against.
    Lots of women feel they are treated unequally.
    Mentally ill people feel discriminated against by the health system.
    Everyone is fighting for their rights.


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    #64
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    gizmo81 wrote: »
    But you cannot claim to know the lived experience of every gay person in Ireland.

    Homophobia exists beyond the incidents that make the headlines.


    Yes it does, and it shows how far Ireland has come as a society when an incident like this makes the headlines.

    The insinuation in the opening post that homophobia is "alive and well in modern Ireland" as though people who are LGBT are still subjected to persecution, well it was always bound to raise an eyebrow.

    It's very difficult to know who chalked the graffiti and why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to have been a publicity stunt.


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    #65
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,351 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    infogiver wrote: »
    Most of the population feel they're been treated unequally.
    I get abused on the street because I'm fat and I waddle as opposed to walk.
    Non-white people are abused.
    Old people are discriminated against.
    Lots of women feel they are treated unequally.
    Mentally ill people feel discriminated against by the health system.
    Everyone is fighting for their rights.

    I'm thinking of throwing fat people into a concentration camps so we can say there are no fat ppl in Ireland. I propose Leitrim as the camp base.


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    #66
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    AllForIt wrote: »
    I'm thinking of throwing fat people into a concentration camp so we can say there are no fat ppl in Ireland.

    It's called fat camp. I go Tuesdays and Thursdays.

    I'm not too sure what's been argued on this thread. Seems to be spitting hairs at an Olympic standard. While forgetting someone's business and several peoples livelihood and community focal point has been attacked.


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    #67
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    Are you really equating the holocaust to weight watchers?
    Manion wrote: »
    It's called fat camp. I go Tuesdays and Thursdays.

    I'm not too sure what's been argued on this thread. Seems to be spitting hairs at an Olympic standard. While forgetting someone's business and several peoples livelihood and community focal point has been attacked.


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    #68
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    I don't know why you're going out of your way to deny homophobia exists.

    Gay people are still treated with hostility (i.e. persecuted) in Ireland today.

    People should really know how to define words before they use them.
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Yes it does, and it shows how far Ireland has come as a society when an incident like this makes the headlines.

    The insinuation in the opening post that homophobia is "alive and well in modern Ireland" as though people who are LGBT are still subjected to persecution, well it was always bound to raise an eyebrow.

    It's very difficult to know who chalked the graffiti and why, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out to have been a publicity stunt.


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    #69
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    gizmo81 wrote: »
    Are you really equating the holocaust to weight watchers?

    Too soon?


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    #70
    AllForIt
    Registered Users Posts: 8,351 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    gizmo81 wrote: »
    Are you really equating the holocaust to weight watchers?

    No , I am comparing what is happening in Chechnya

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_concentration_camps_in_Chechnya


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    #71
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    gizmo81 wrote: »
    I don't know why you're going out of your way to deny homophobia exists.


    I didn't deny at all that homophobia exists? I'm saying that it doesn't exist to the degree that was implied in the opening post.

    Gay people are still treated with hostility (i.e. persecuted) in Ireland today.


    Some are, most aren't. That's why I said we shouldn't lose our sense of perspective, because losing our sense of perspective causes people to raise an eyebrow.

    People should really know how to define words before they use them.


    I think it's more important that people can agree on a definition, otherwise one might be given to perceiving homophobia all around them, creating mass paranoia where it's totally unnecessary and divisive.


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    #72
    wordofwarning
    Closed Accounts Posts: 697 ✭✭✭wordofwarning


    gizmo81 wrote: »
    But you cannot claim to know the lived experience of every gay person in Ireland.

    Homophobia exists beyond the incidents that make the headlines.

    So that confirms I am supposed to believe we live in a homophobic society based on isolated experiences, that my friends nor I have experienced...

    Homophobia exists, but that does not mean we live in a homophobic society! If 99.5% of gay people live with zero issues, am I supposed to believe because 0.5% have negative experiences that we live in homophobic society? Under your logic, yes is the answer. I am sorry, but I entirely disagree.

    Our next Taoiseach will be gay. But lets ignore that and focus on an isolated incident caused by one of the million or so residents of Dublin...


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    #73
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    This thread is getting weird


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    #74
    Grey Wind
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Grey Wind


    wordofwarning wrote: »
    So that confirms I am supposed to believe we live in a homophobic society based on isolated experiences, that my friends nor I have experienced...

    Homophobia exists, but that does not mean we live in a homophobic society! If 99.5% of gay people live with zero issues, am I supposed to believe because 0.5% have negative experiences that we live in homophobic society? Under your logic, yes is the answer. I am sorry, but I entirely disagree.

    Our next Taoiseach will be gay. But lets ignore that and focus on an isolated incident caused by one of the million or so residents of Dublin...
    Do you have anything to back up the absurd claim that 99% of gay people in Ireland have never experienced homophobia?

    Here's a couple of examples that prove that that certainly isn't the case:

    http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-ireland-1313875-Feb2014/
    http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-1329801-Feb2014/
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/52-of-young-irish-lgbti-people-face-abuse-at-school-1.2651002
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/homophobia-case-study-there-s-no-classification-of-these-crimes-1.3022277
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/revealed-ireland-the-second-worst-offender-when-it-comes-to-homophobia-in-sport-31210431.html


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    I didn't deny at all that homophobia exists? I'm saying that it doesn't exist to the degree that was implied in the opening post.
    What degree did the OP imply? Literally all it says is that it exists.


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    #75
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Grey Wind wrote: »
    I really, really do not understand why people are bending over backwards to try and minimize any sort of a problem.


    By that same token, and only speaking for myself, I don't understand why you're so desperate to go looking for problems tbh.


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    #76
    DivingDuck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,396 ✭✭✭DivingDuck


    There will always be homophobia in Ireland, and everywhere else— there are people who still don't think women are fit to vote and who'd bring back slavery if they could, and those rights are much older and more established in society than the right to freedom of sexuality, which has only been guaranteed in this country for a handful of years. Some people are never going to believe in the rights of others, and that's an unavoidable fact.

    That said, on a state-wide level we should seek to punish people who try to infringe on the rights of others so that these opinions are recognized as being the views of only a small minority, and not considered "acceptable" by society as a whole. Sure, graffiti is just that; it's not somebody getting a beating or being refused accommodation or let go from their job. You can walk past the words, and go in and have a pint just like every other day.

    When something like this is considered "okay", though, it gives the impression that society is signing off on those views. It contributes to a feeling of being unwelcome and other. It plants the seeds of fear and anxiety. Is that really something people think is all right? Is that something people want to encourage?

    I hope they catch whoever was responsible for this and throw the book at them.


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    #77
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Grey Wind wrote: »
    Do you have anything to back up the absurd claim that 99% of gay people in Ireland have never experienced homophobia?

    Here's a couple of examples that prove that that certainly isn't the case:

    http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-ireland-1313875-Feb2014/
    http://www.thejournal.ie/homophobia-1329801-Feb2014/
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/52-of-young-irish-lgbti-people-face-abuse-at-school-1.2651002
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/homophobia-case-study-there-s-no-classification-of-these-crimes-1.3022277
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/revealed-ireland-the-second-worst-offender-when-it-comes-to-homophobia-in-sport-31210431.html


    I really, really do not understand why people are bending over backwards to try and minimize any sort of a problem.

    One of those links reminded me of just how bad being gay was when i was younger. Whatever about in adult society, Id be more of the opinion that homophobia is not a huge problem there, but I would say gay youth suffer a lot. I left secondary school just 4 years ago and abuse for being gay was constant and harsh
    It was easy for me to forget..college being so accepting and open minded, like night and day
    So that is definitely one setting where homophobia is a massive problem, still, highly doubt its changed a lot in the 4 years since I left either.


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    #78
    Grey Wind
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Grey Wind


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    By that same token, and only speaking for myself, I don't understand why you're so desperate to go looking for problems tbh.

    I'm not looking for problems. They exist. They're there. I've given examples. I've linked to stories. How is that "looking for problems"?


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    #79
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    One eyed Jack wrote: »


    Some are, most aren't. That's why I said we shouldn't lose our sense of perspective, because losing our sense of perspective causes people to raise an eyebrow.

    .

    Jack unless life conforms to your perspective you always seem to raise an eyebrow ! And that applies to most issues outside a 'traditional' view of life .

    Every LGBT person I have ever met ( and I have met quite a lot) has and will continue to have experience of homophobia . That is simply a fact of life .

    Sometimes it will just be a 'here we go again' minor irritation and sometimes it will be a lot more so - but it will always be there . And it makes no difference if it is 00.1% or 10 % of the population . If a person is being insulted, assaulted, intimidated should they remind themselves that it is only a minority ?

    Will it ever end ? IMHO opinion - never , but we can at least call it what it is without equivocation .


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    #80
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    Where do you get your statistics from?

    Why do you think you and your friends are representative of wider society?

    Have you polled gay teenagers to ask if they feel persecuted? UNESCO have and they disagree with you;

    More than 52 per cent of LGBTI (lesbian, gay, bi-sexual, trans and intersex) young people have experienced homophobic or transphobic name-calling while at school in Ireland, according to a Unesco study.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/52-of-young-irish-lgbti-people-face-abuse-at-school-1.2651002

    Like the Marriage referendum, having a gay Taoiseach will have no bearing on the day to day lives of gay people and their experience of discrimination.

    ireland actually slipped in it's ranking with ILGA

    And if you want to focus on homophobia as violence rather than bias,


    Hate crime figures from the Central Statistics Office, released to the Press Association in October, showed that 26 cases of crimes based on gender, transphobia or homophobia were recorded in the first six months of 2016, compared to 25 overall in 2015. These were the first statistics available since the Pulse recording system used by An Garda Siochana was expanded to include transphobic crimes in 2015.


    http://ilga-europe.org/sites/default/files/2017/ireland.pdf
    wordofwarning wrote: »
    So that confirms I am supposed to believe we live in a homophobic society based on isolated experiences, that my friends nor I have experienced...

    Homophobia exists, but that does not mean we live in a homophobic society! If 99.5% of gay people live with zero issues, am I supposed to believe because 0.5% have negative experiences that we live in homophobic society? Under your logic, yes is the answer. I am sorry, but I entirely disagree.

    Our next Taoiseach will be gay. But lets ignore that and focus on an isolated incident caused by one of the million or so residents of Dublin...


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    #81
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    NIMAN wrote: »
    There's homophobia is the US, Italy, Spain, Germany, Russia, Austrialia, NZ ...........

    Its not just Ireland.

    In fact, Ireland is a lot more progressive than most Western countries when it comes to gay rights, so a bit harsh to judge the entire country due to the actions of a few scumbags.

    Oh for fūck sake. I didnt say the whole country is homophobic.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #82
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The Fake Sheikh wrote: »
    You don't have to be ok with it. You just can't do anything about how people feel.

    You can do many things. Challenging through counter speech. Education. Etc etc

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #83
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Nobody posted that though, that was Joey who suggested that there was a perception that homophobia doesn't exist any more in this country -

    Of course there's homophobia in Ireland, and you listed some good examples of it, but from reading the comments on the article linked by Joey, I think some people really are losing their sense of perspective in claiming this is some sort of homophobic attack and that unless a person were LGBT they wouldn't know how it feels.

    It's chalk, it wipes off. It's not like anyone had a milk carton thrown at them.

    Are you seriously saying this wasn't homophobia?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #84
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 33,355 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Oh for fūck sake. I didnt say the whole country is homophobic.

    I'm going to make this my last comment on this thread as some people seem to be getting a tad wound up.

    I know you didn't say the whole country is homophobic, but if you expect there to be zero anti-gay people in Ireland, then you are wasting your time, and you are simply stating the obvious.

    That's my point. Cheerio.


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    #85
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,053 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Literally all it says is that it exists.

    Exactly. I don't why people are hopping up and down because I pointed out it exists.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #86
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I'm going to make this my last comment on this thread as some people seem to be getting a tad wound up.

    I know you didn't say the whole country is homophobic, but if you expect there to be zero anti-gay people in Ireland, then you are wasting your time, and you are simply stating the obvious.

    That's my point. Cheerio.

    I don't think anyone expects that
    We can hope that one of the countrys few gay bars wont be vandalised with gay slur words though and criticise it when it does happen
    Don't you think?


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    #87
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Are you seriously saying this wasn't homophobia?


    Joey I don't know what to make of it to be honest. I can't help but get the feeling it was a publicity stunt.


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    #88
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    Publicity for what or whom?
    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Joey I don't know what to make of it to be honest. I can't help but get the feeling it was a publicity stunt.


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    #89
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    One eyed Jack wrote: »
    Joey I don't know what to make of it to be honest. I can't help but get the feeling it was a publicity stunt.

    Holly ****. I can help but get the feeling... You literally don't know what to make of it.


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    #90
    Manion
    Registered Users Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭Manion


    gizmo81 wrote: »
    Publicity for what or whom?

    For the agenda obviously. Did you not get the news letter?


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    #91
    Grey Wind
    Registered Users Posts: 95 ✭✭Grey Wind


    Someone spray paints fag and a swastika across a gay bar and you think it's a publicity stunt? Are you for real? No wonder you don't think homophobia's a problem if this is your reaction to it.


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