Crazy Phone Bill...Cancelling Direct Debit??

SB1988

How about that weather?

km991148

SB1988 wrote: »

My question is, has anyone cancelled their D/D and been able to get on fine with their lives, credit ratings, new phone companies, etc. First of all there is no way I can afford this bill, and secondly I clearly did not make these calls. I'd like to think that if it went to court I'd have a strong chance at winning...

First things first - sorry your phone was nicked.

As for the rest - you could cancel the DD and try and get on with your life - but it will not mean the bill will go away.

You will owe the 1k and it will prob get sold on to a debt collector. You wont get your day in court, but even if you did you wouldn't 'win' as you signed the contract and have responsibility for the bill.

Take the risk and cancel the DD - but you are then breaking the contact so expect the problems that arise from that.

Alternatively - try vodafone again - maybe see if they can take a bit off and come up with a repayment plan?

njs030

You can cancel your DD but they will come after you for the bill and the cancellation charge for the rest of your contract.
It's up to you to contact them if your phone is lost or stolen and you agreed to do that when you signed the t&c's so you have no hope of winning anything unfortunately.

Best thing is to contact them and ask can you pay it off over time.

Edit-from the t&c's-
6.2 If your SIM Card or Equipment is lost or stolen after we have delivered it to you, you must tell us as soon as possible so that we can prevent further use on it. You must pay for all Charges due until you tell us. You must also continue to pay the line-rental Charges until this Agreement has ended as described in clause 13.

Sleeper12

There is a slim possibility that phone insurance or holiday insurance may cover some of it

njs030

SB1988 wrote: »

Yes, I understand all of that about the T&C's of the contract. But even if I noticed it went missing when it did, they're call centres don't open til 10am, that would have still been 6/7 hours of calls made so what could I have done then?

Apparently they noticed it was suspicious but this was after the 24 calls were made. Surely Vodafone should have a system in place that can stop phone bills from reaching those heights especially when roaming??

PS. It is considerably more than €1000...

The lost/stolen reporting line is 24 hour.

Perhaps contact the reps on boards for help? They are lovely

tedpan

SB1988 wrote:

PS. It is considerably more than €1000...

How much was the bill? If you're gonna bail on the DD, surely you can tell us?

ED E

SB1988 wrote: »

PS. It is considerably more than ?1000...

Can you be more specific?

If its ?3000+ its in the range where the legal costs of finding against you are acceptable then the sheriff comes and reposes your car to pay off the debt.

TALK
TO
VODAFONE.

ED E

SB1988 wrote: »

Can sheriffs get involved in private matters??

You dont pay.
They chase it
You dont pay.
They lodge with court
Court finds against you
You still dont pay
Sheriff recovers the funds from your property.

L1011

SB1988 wrote: »

Can sheriffs get involved in private matters??

That is effectively what they're there for. If its over 3k it is inevitable that it will be chased in court if you do a head in the sand/DD cancel approach.

Del2005

SB1988 wrote: »

It is more than €3000...

My last hope is my insurance so really.

You didn't report it lost/stolen so insurance won't cover. They might have covered a few hours or a day at a push, but you left it much longer.

mickmackmcgoo

SB1988 wrote:

My last hope is my insurance so really.

Get back on to vodafone again and make your case to their billing or collections department . I know someone who unknown to himself ran up a bill of over 5000 for mobile data use abroad- his kids had been watching you tube videos on his phone when he though they were playing games on it. He persevered with vodafone and got it wrote down to 500 instead. Keep at them

Pelvis

I would it find it highly unusual for a company the size of Vodafone not to have some kind of fraud detection in place. Allowing the bill to run up hundreds of € worth of charges is one thing, but letting a bill get over €3000 is recklessness on their part IMO. It's in their best interests for identify fraud cases, so why didn't they here? Calls to certain destinations, such as Africa in this case, are massive red flags for Telecoms companies.

Let's face it, there is no question about canceling the DD, of course you will! Who in their right mind would pay it?

What happens next however, is another question. I would make them an offer, think of the maximum figure you'd be willing to pay and offer them 70% to give yourself room to maneuver. Your bill is 3k but the cost to them is probably not even half that. I'm sure they'd much prefer partial payment and continued customer over selling the debt off.

colm_mcm

I know with data usage they used to be able to write off 90% but not sure how calls would work.

dev100

SB1988 wrote:

My question is, has anyone cancelled their D/D and been able to get on fine with their lives, credit ratings, new phone companies, etc. First of all there is no way I can afford this bill, and secondly I clearly did not make these calls. I'd like to think that if it went to court I'd have a strong chance at winning...

Cancel the DD straight away so it doesn't allow them to automatically go in and clear your account on the billing date, that is if you have the funds in bank account. You will have to negotiate with them after that though but at least your in a better negotiating position .

You will have to pay a certain amount

gizmo81

I'd write or email into them, keep asking to escalate it.
You say you wouldn't be able to pay this, explain that to them, tell them who you are job etc

When someone sees it in black and white they might be more understanding.

JimsAlterEgo

was your phone/sim unlocked? how could they use so much data?

Discodog

Cancel the DD & politely email them explaining that you consider the costs & situation to be unreasonable. State that, unless it can be amicable resolved, you are willing to allow a Court to decide what is appropriate.

AFAIK Vodafone have a duty to mitigate their loss. Phones get lost & stolen all the time so they should be prepared for it. If they continue to hassle you then complain by email, don't discuss the matter as you want a written record.

Don't assume, that because your contract says x y z, that you are in the wrong. Contracts must be reasonable & fair. I would also raise a formal case with COMREG.

AngryLips

Pelvis wrote: »

I would it find it highly unusual for a company the size of Vodafone not to have some kind of fraud detection in place.

It's a question of timing. Their reporting probably isn't in real time, and added to the fact that it didn't occur on the home network which might delay it further.

OP: You should be aware that mobile operators now share details of bad debtors with each other and it is possible for one provider to deny service to someone due to outstanding balance with another provider.

whippet

AngryLips wrote: »

OP: You should be aware that mobile operators now share details of bad debtors with each other and it is possible for one provider to deny service to someone due to outstanding balance with another provider.

have you a source for this? I would have thought with Data Protection legislation and the incoming GDPR regulations two separate private companies would not be able to share individual's financial records?

Discodog

AngryLips wrote: »

It's a question of timing. Their reporting probably isn't in real time, and added to the fact that it didn't occur on the home network which might delay it further.

OP: You should be aware that mobile operators now share details of bad debtors with each other and it is possible for one provider to deny service to someone due to outstanding balance with another provider.

I think that they would have to be careful unless a Court ruled that the amount was due. It's defamation otherwise

dilallio

If you were on holidays, I'm assuming that the calls were made, not on vodafone's network, but a foreign carrier?
Vodafone won't get an immediate notification of the call from the foreign network - it's probably delivered by a batch process, so it's difficult for them to block the phone for suspected fraudulent activity.

Carlos Orange

It is probably worth giving Comreg (the communications regulator) a call to see what their stance is on it. I think you will need to work through the Vodafone escalation processes before you can lodge a complaint with Comreg but maybe they can give you some general guidance (hopefully in your favour).

https://www.comreg.ie/consumer-services/home-phone/billing-and-disputed-charges/


The site seems to be down now but when I checked earlier I think there were escalation details on this page.

https://www.vodafone.ie/aboutus/code/custcare/escalation/

dudara

SB1988 wrote: »

Yes my phone had a thumb print for access, and failing that it had a 4 digit pin. I also brought this up with them but they had no answer...

Ok - that's very odd. They might have swapped the SIM into another phone and thus bypassed the lock on your phone

Write a letter of formal complaint to Vodafone, outlining your case. Make sure that it is marked as formal complaint. Tell them that you are disputing the charges. However, your failure to immediately report the phone loss is going to work against you. But you might be able to get some leniency

L1011

colm_mcm wrote: »

I know with data usage they used to be able to write off 90% but not sure how calls would work.

Premium rate calls impose a significant expense on the operator, data does not

Discodog

I would not make any offer until you are certain that it will be accepted. It could easily be seen as an admission of liability. Personally I wouldn't pay more than €50.

Formal complaint to Vodafone followed by COMREG. Remember to log everything & the time involved.

XrayGolf

whippet wrote: »

have you a source for this? I would have thought with Data Protection legislation and the incoming GDPR regulations two separate private companies would not be able to share individual's financial records?

From Vodafone's Bill Pay T&Cs:

47. I understand that by entering this Agreement, I am agreeing that if I do not pay my full bill on time so I have overdue payments over a certain amount, my information may be shared with Credit Insights so operators can check this information when I apply for their services in future. I understand that extra information on this is available on Vodafone’s website. Where you do not pay your bill in full and on time, if the overdue payment is over a certain amount, your information may be shared with Credit Insights. Credit Insights member operators can check this information when you apply for their services in future to help those operators assess your application. This information will include name, address, date of birth, account and arrears details. This information will be held by a service provider to Credit Insights that may keep this information for 6 years from your last activity relating to your debt . Where you do not agree to information sharing with Credit Insights and access to your information by member operators you have the choice when you apply to instead buy our prepaid services.

https://n.vodafone.ie/terms/bill-pay.html

Former Former

I suppose the question Vodafone will ask is - why didn't you ring us straight away?

JimsAlterEgo

dudara wrote: »

Ok - that's very odd. They might have swapped the SIM into another phone and thus bypassed the lock on your phone

Write a letter of formal complaint to Vodafone, outlining your case. Make sure that it is marked as formal complaint. Tell them that you are disputing the charges. However, your failure to immediately report the phone loss is going to work against you. But you might be able to get some leniency

they reported it when they noticed, I would have thought within 24 hours is acceptable, however the OP should have done before leaving and not waiting until they got home.
OP how long from when phone was lost to when you reported it missing,

dilallio

SB1988 wrote: »

Vodafone are an international provider, I was on Vodafone Spain...

How do you know what network the thief used, to call Africa?

When roaming, the person with your phone can manually select an alternative carrier other than Vodafone Spain. My point was that it's unreasonable for you to expect Vodafone to immediately bar all calls on your account when they may not be immediately aware of these calls.

Masala

dilallio wrote: »

How do you know what network the thief used, to call Africa?

When roaming, the person with your phone can manually select an alternative carrier other than Vodafone Spain. My point was that it's unreasonable for you to expect Vodafone to immediately bar all calls on your account when they may not be immediately aware of these calls.

So... for the rest of us lucky enought not to have this happen to us- is there a way we can contact Eir/ Vodafone / Three etc to put a 'limit' / 'stop' on our phones to stop this happening!!!

Would absolutely ruin me financially if I had a €3000 bill arrive in my door....

njs030

SB1988 wrote: »

That is the point I am trying to understand, how could they not have a system in place that puts a limit on your bill until it is confirmed that you are the user? And when they actually did notice something was wrong (24 calls later) they cancelled the phone and I didn't even receive an email/call/text to see if I was using it...

Your point is a bit confusing. You didn't take responsibility for your own phone then you complain Vodafone didn't switch off the phone and deal with the problem for you but it turns out they actually did? But then your annoyed they didn't call you to ask....huh

Calls don't update in real time especially when you are roaming.
Op you didn't call them for 36 hours you've no one to blame but yourself-talk to Vodafone and work something out

njs030

Masala wrote: »

So... for the rest of us lucky enought not to have this happen to us- is there a way we can contact Eir/ Vodafone / Three etc to put a 'limit' / 'stop' on our phones to stop this happening!!!

Would absolutely ruin me financially if I had a €3000 bill arrive in my door....

When you lose your phone immediately call the lost/stolen phones helpline and have it blocked.
It's very simple.

Former Former

SB1988 wrote: »

I would say it was 24 hours between the time I noticed it lost, but it would have been 36 hours from the time it was actually lost according to the call log...

By the time I noticed it was missing the damage was already done...

OK I know this is great with hindsight, but waiting 24 hours to report a missing phone is crazy.

I see people telling you to complain to COMREG, I'm not sure how this will help, I don't think you really have any grounds to complain.

Your only hope is to try to come to sort of compromise with Vodafone. You can try non-payment but it's going to be a lot of hassle and stress for you.

Carlos Orange

Former Former wrote: »

I see people telling you to complain to COMREG, I'm not sure how this will help, I don't think you really have any grounds to complain.

I don't know if Comreg will be much help but he should talk to them to at least know their stance on what happened. Obviously he could have reported it stolen quicker but 24 one hour calls to the same number sounds more like organised criminal activity than a stolen phone being used as a phone and that is something telecoms networks should (imo) be obliged to clamp down on not something they should be getting a margin on.

AngryLips

Masala wrote: »

So... for the rest of us lucky enought not to have this happen to us- is there a way we can contact Eir/ Vodafone / Three etc to put a 'limit' / 'stop' on our phones to stop this happening!!!

Would absolutely ruin me financially if I had a €3000 bill arrive in my door....

You should ask the NSA to do it since they would have way more experience snooping on your calls than Vodafone.

njs030

psinno wrote: »

I don't know if Comreg will be much help but he should talk to them to at least know their stance on what happened. Obviously he could have reported it stolen quicker but 24 one hour calls to the same number sounds more like organised criminal activity than a stolen phone being used as a phone and that is something telecoms networks should (imo) be obliged to clamp down on not something they should be getting a margin on.

Organised criminal activity? You are aware all criminals use phones and companies still charge them?

Carlos Orange

notjustsweet wrote: »

Organised criminal activity? You are aware all criminals use phones and companies still charge them?

It could be that whoever stole the phone wanted to talk to someone in Africa for 24 hours continuously or it could be that they get a kickback from the ginormous phone bills they generate with stolen phones.

njs030

psinno wrote: »

It could be that whoever stole the phone wanted to talk to someone in Africa for 24 hours continuously or it could be that they get a kickback from the ginormous phone bills they generate with stolen phones.

Total speculation and none of which is relevant.
The op has a duty to report his phone as stolen, according to the t&c's he signed and I posted in the first page he agreed to pay any bill due until that time.
He didn't make the call for 36 hours during which time Vodafone flagged the problem and shut it down or he'd be in deeper trouble!

Op again-talk to them don't try to ignore it.

Discodog

The reason to report it to COMREG & go to Court if necessary, is because the OP acted reasonably & as the average person would. This can outweigh T&C's if the terms are unreasonable. Clearly Vodafone have an obligation to prevent such bills & provide 24/7 emergency reporting facilities. I am sure that they could have a system that stopped excessive use until, for example the user responded to a text with a pre agreed password.

If this went to Court I can imagine a judge ruling that the user acted responsibly. Vodafone know this too & that they are on a hiding to nothing.

njs030

Discodog wrote: »

The reason to report it to COMREG & go to Court if necessary, is because the OP acted reasonably & as the average person would. This can outweigh T&C's if the terms are unreasonable. Clearly Vodafone have an obligation to prevent such bills & provide 24/7 emergency reporting facilities. I am sure that they could have a system that stopped excessive use until, for example the user responded to a text with a pre agreed password.

If this went to Court I can imagine a judge ruling that the user acted responsibly. Vodafone know this too & that they are on a hiding to nothing.

How did he act responsibly?
He didn't report his phone stolen for 36 hours.
Vodafone do have 24 hour reporting facilities BTW.

Former Former

SB1988 wrote: »

I think your missing the point. What I am saying is that when they realised something was up, that they did not try make contact to confirm if it was me using. Of course I have a responsibility, but do they not also? Considering they are supposed to keep my details safe and secure, using my number without my approval does not seem like they did...

And I did not wait 36 hours, I was not aware til the following morning that it had gone missing, then we tried ringing it but it was dead why would I assume that my phone was still in use?

How would they make contact with you, except via your phone?

What details did they not keep safe?

How were Vodafone to know that it was not you using the phone?

The only person who knew the phone was gone was you, but you made a deliberate choice to do nothing and assume all would be well.

It's a very unfortunate situation but Vodafone are not to blame here.

njs030

SB1988 wrote: »

I think your missing the point. What I am saying is that when they realised something was up, that they did not try make contact to confirm if it was me using. Of course I have a responsibility, but do they not also? Considering they are supposed to keep my details safe and secure, using my number without my approval does not seem like they did...

And I did not wait 36 hours, I was not aware til the following morning that it had gone missing, then we tried ringing it but it was dead why would I assume that my phone was still in use?

Why would they contact you? They blocked your phone if it was you I think it's pretty obvious you'd be on the phone to them in seconds to have it unblocked.

According to your previous post you said it was 36 hours....even if it was 24 it's ridiculous.

Op you signed the terms and conditions saying you'd contact them and you didn't.


"They are supposed to keep my details safe" op YOU lost your phone!!!!
Data protection is the sharing of your personal information which they didn't do...

Discodog

notjustsweet wrote: »

How did he act responsibly?
He didn't report his phone stolen for 36 hours.
Vodafone do have 24 hour reporting facilities BTW.

It's about what the average person would do. It's reasonable that he wouldn't suspect it was stolen & thought that he lost it.

Your posts remind me of situations that I have had in the past where companies quote the T&Cs & then start to threaten with Court, costs, bad credit history etc. When all of this fails & they realise that you are happy to trust the matter to a Court, nothing happens.

Would Vodafone really want the bad publicity & the embarrassment of telling thieves how they operate ? It's the kind of story that Liveline & the Tabloids love. Poor consumer versus greedy multinational.

Discodog

SB1988 wrote: »

In my opinion this is similar to when someone steals your bank card and takes all your cash, how come you can claim that back but a phone bill is different? Its still your money being used...

And yes I am aware that banks are insured against that stuff!

You need to understand that Boards is a great place for friendly advice. But there will always be a few posters who will want to tell you what a naughty boy you have been & how you must take your punishment.

I think that the bank analogy is very good & I also think that a judge would be astonished that a phone company would allow you to run up thousands in debt. They can instantly block you for non payment etc & they have a long call history to go on so it should be easy for the computer to spot unusual use.

Of course it's easier to bully & intimidate the consumer especially as some will pay.

AngryLips

SB1988 wrote: »

In my opinion this is similar to when someone steals your bank card and takes all your cash, how come you can claim that back but a phone bill is different? Its still your money being used...

And yes I am aware that banks are insured against that stuff!

The difference is that banks are insured against such activity, whereas a mobile operator will offer the customer insurance for the same.

njs030

SB1988 wrote: »

In my opinion this is similar to when someone steals your bank card and takes all your cash, how come you can claim that back but a phone bill is different? Its still your money being used...

And yes I am aware that banks are insured against that stuff!

Have you called vodaphone and talked to them yet rather than arguing the point with strangers?

Like everyone has said they probably will try to help you lower the cost if you engage with them instead of ignoring them or going in with all guns blazing.

njs030

Discodog wrote: »

You need to understand that Boards is a great place for friendly advice. But there will always be a few posters who will want to tell you what a naughty boy you have been & how you must take your punishment.

I think that the bank analogy is very good & I also think that a judge would be astonished that a phone company would allow you to run up thousands in debt. They can instantly block you for non payment etc & they have a long call history to go on so it should be easy for the computer to spot unusual use.

Of course it's easier to bully & intimidate the consumer especially as some will pay.

Please link to any court case where a judge has ruled a customer can negligently ignore their responsibility by not informing the phone company of a lost/stolen phone for 24+ hours?

Discodog

notjustsweet wrote: »

Have you called vodaphone and talked to them yet rather than arguing the point with strangers?

Like everyone has said they probably will try to help you lower the cost if you engage with them instead of ignoring them or going in with all guns blazing.

Why lower the cost when he isn't liable for any cost ?

Discodog

notjustsweet wrote: »

Please link to any court case where a judge has ruled a customer can negligently ignore their responsibility by not informing the phone company of a lost/stolen phone for 24+ hours?

Your interpretation of negligent is very different to mine. The Courts may well define it as failing to take the care that a normal person might take. Show me a case where a phone company has successfully sued someone in such an instance ?

Former Former

SB1988 wrote: »

In my opinion this is similar to when someone steals your bank card and takes all your cash, how come you can claim that back but a phone bill is different? Its still your money being used...

And yes I am aware that banks are insured against that stuff!

Banks will refund you if you've taken all reasonable steps to guard against fraud and you inform them asap of the theft.

You have a 36 hour gap that you can't really account for. You simply didn't hold up your end of the bargain.

I see someone above is saying boards should only be for friendly advice, so I'm sorry if this isn't what you want to hear, but it's exactly what Vodafone will tell you and if it eventually ends up in court, it's the first question you'll be asked.

Discodog

CeilingFly wrote: »

Anyone else suspicious of this thread?

Newly registered poster going on and on and on - seems to be clueless, but is quite quick with the answers.

Very similar style to similar waste of time threads.

I think that the OP is far from clueless. The same might not be said for some of the sanctimonious replies.

Why is a waste of time to discuss an issue that any consumer could easily face ?