BBVA no longer funding pilot loans

1123heavy

https://www.bbvauk.com/tleu/error404/

I don't know how many here were ever planning to use them, but gone are the days of loaning 100k+ from the BBVA over your parent's house to pay for flight training.

I'll be interested now to see how schools and airlines react.

martinsvi

was it ever available to residents of ROI anyway?

deaddonkey15

martinsvi wrote: »

was it ever available to residents of ROI anyway?

I think it was as long as the loan was secured against a property in the UK which made it very difficult.

This could be a good thing for aspiring pilots though. Airlines may have to start taking a leaf out of the Aer Lingus book in terms of training scheme funding if they want to make sure they're getting the best people as opposed to the best out of those with 100k to spare.

donkey balls

It wasn't that long ago that Irish banks would loan 100k for flight training, I could have got a loan back then due me being a home owner, But I can never see a full cadetship like years ago ever coming back into the industry.

deaddonkey15

donkey balls wrote: »

It wasn't that long ago that Irish banks would loan 100k for flight training, I could have got a loan back then due me being a home owner, But I can never see a full cadetship like years ago ever coming back into the industry.

Aer Lingus do it every year.

donkey balls

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Aer Lingus do it every year.

I thought with the EI scheme that the cadet had to pay some of the money up front.

deaddonkey15

donkey balls wrote: »

I thought with the EI scheme that the cadet had to pay some of the money up front.

The last 2 years it's been fully funded. Before that the cadet paid 25k, even that was a very good setup compared to what Easyjet/Flybe/Virgin offer.

Stovepipe

the EI cadet scheme, as it stands, is rumoured to be changing by the end of 2017.

deaddonkey15

Stovepipe wrote: »

the EI cadet scheme, as it stands, is rumoured to be changing by the end of 2017.

Do you know what the changes entail? It already seems as though it will be an MPL scheme from now on.

Stovepipe

As far as I know, partial payment of the total cost will be the future.

deaddonkey15

Stovepipe wrote: »

As far as I know, partial payment of the total cost will be the future.

Great.

1123heavy

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Great.

Aer Lingus doing this may well be great, if gets rid of those who were doing a degree in the arts in circus college and suddenly decide they want to be a pilot getting it whilst genuine candidates missed out for silly reasons.

Too many people with no background and little demonstrated previous interest in aviation get the aer lingus cadetship whereas genuinely good candidates who have wanted to be pilots for a long while don't ... often times they fall short of the questionable "personality profile" test in existence (which entails questions such as "do you watch pornography?") but others with no previous interest just happen to pass it.

Demand some commitment but not beyond reason (25,000 eu was just right imo) and do away with the chancers

Open Up

1123heavy wrote: »

Aer Lingus doing this may well be great, if gets rid of those who were doing a degree in the arts in circus college and suddenly decide they want to be a pilot getting it whilst genuine candidates missed out for silly reasons.

Too many people with no background and little demonstrated previous interest in aviation get the aer lingus cadetship whereas genuinely good candidates who have wanted to be pilots for a long while don't ... often times they fall short of the questionable "personality profile" test in existence (which entails questions such as "do you watch pornography?") but others with no previous interest just happen to pass it.

Demand some commitment but not beyond reason (25,000 eu was just right imo) and do away with the chancers

Do you have demonstrable examples in the EI case of this actually happening?

Stovepipe

Yes. Plenty that I have talked to, in there and outside, had no background in flying in the slightest or had had a voucher flight, at most, or had never flown in anything smaller than an airliner. Very few had an abiding interest in flying before they got in and it may surprise you to know that many airline pilots have no continuing interest in flying outside of their jobs,(to the point of actual distaste), don't fly outside their jobs, except to go on holiday and a huge amount of them do not maintain their original PPL. Being an aerosexual is not encouraged in the job; they would prefer if you devoted your energies to being a professional, with a view to further education, such as a degree, to move you upstairs in the foodchain. Airlines couldn't care less what you do on your day off, as long as you don't scare the horses or frighten the children. Equally, they don't really care what you bring in flying terms to the recruitment table, as every airline has different ideas of what a starter pilot should do or be, because they all want to mold you to their way of thinking, which is to be a professional and a good team player at all times and to never embarrass the airline.....it's a bit like professional mariners or drivers or firemen. Very few of them "do" the day job on their days off.

Open Up

Stovepipe wrote: »

Yes. Plenty that I have talked to, in there and outside, had no background in flying in the slightest or had had a voucher flight, at most, or had never flown in anything smaller than an airliner. Very few had an abiding interest in flying before they got in and it may surprise you to know that many airline pilots have no continuing interest in flying outside of their jobs,(to the point of actual distaste), don't fly outside their jobs, except to go on holiday and a huge amount of them do not maintain their original PPL. Being an aerosexual is not encouraged in the job; they would prefer if you devoted your energies to being a professional, with a view to further education, such as a degree, to move you upstairs in the foodchain. Airlines couldn't care less what you do on your day off, as long as you don't scare the horses or frighten the children. Equally, they don't really care what you bring in flying terms to the recruitment table, as every airline has different ideas of what a starter pilot should do or be, because they all want to mold you to their way of thinking, which is to be a professional and a good team player at all times and to never embarrass the airline.....it's a bit like professional mariners or drivers or firemen. Very few of them "do" the day job on their days off.

I was just referring to the fact that lots of "chancers" are getting through and I really find this hard to believe given the rigours of the process and the money invested in the recruitment process. I've been through the EI process five times and anyone there with me has always had at least SOME interest in aviation. And really that's all they're looking for. As you said it's more down to the personality of the individual and whether they displayed the right characteristics for the role.

notharrypotter

Open Up wrote: »

I was just referring to the fact that lots of "chancers" are getting through.

Thread hijack but what is a "chancer"?

Open Up

notharrypotter wrote: »

Thread hijack but what is a "chancer"?

Well in this context it is someone that is trying their luck in the interview process without any real background, interest or motivation in becoming a pilot.

Negative_G

1123heavy wrote: »

Aer Lingus doing this may well be great, if gets rid of those who were doing a degree in the arts in circus college and suddenly decide they want to be a pilot getting it whilst genuine candidates missed out for silly reasons.

Too many people with no background and little demonstrated previous interest in aviation get the aer lingus cadetship whereas genuinely good candidates who have wanted to be pilots for a long while don't ... often times they fall short of the questionable "personality profile" test in existence (which entails questions such as "do you watch pornography?") but others with no previous interest just happen to pass it.

Demanjd some commitment but not beyond reason (25,000 eu was just right imo) and do away with the chancers

Your post comes across as rather bitter.

I've never applied for an EI cadetship but I've been through numerous assessment phases and personality questionnaires. Whether you want to believe it or not, these tests are designed to select the best candidate. Years upon years of academic research support this method.

To say that questionnaire's etc are a barrier to those who "deserve" it due to the fact that they have displayed an apparent interest longer than another candidate doesn't hold much water.

As for the comment referring to a what a professional pilot does with their time off. If I was up at 3/4 am for five days in a row and flying up to 20 hours and numerous sectors, the last thing I would want to do is to spend my time off hanging around a dreary GA airfield flying a rackety old single engine piston or out "spotting".

There are people in every walk of life who carry out their work to pay the bills. If a pilot is competent and safe then what difference does it make? They are a professional carrying out their duties.

I don't think the pilot profession deserves any special treatment in this regard.

Every time the topic of an EI cadetship comes up on this forum there are always a lot of sour grapes and accusations of nepotism. Most of these are contain zero substance whatsoever.

1123heavy

Negative_G wrote: »

Every time the topic of an EI cadetship comes up on this forum there are always a lot of sour grapes and accusations of nepotism. Most of these are contain zero substance whatsoever.

I seriously beg to differ, it is awful naive to think nepotism has never played a role in the Aer Lingus cadetship. You have just reminded me of a time I was having a casual chat with a crew member back in Feb. I explained about my love of flying and the aer lingus cadethship etc, i specifically mentioned they take 12 and she cut across me. She then said, and I quote, "well they say 12, but in reality there's only probably about 6 when you count in those getting in through family and the likes".

I didn't need her to tell me, but it surprised me that there is obviously no secret made of it among the staff! It is foolish to think it isn't true.


As for your comment about personality profiles being highly accurate etc etc, well how come just 3 weeks ago I went to an interview and about 15 mins into it I was told my real life personality didn't match what my personality profile said about me ... ?

They are methods of reducing the numbers, it's that simple. I work for an airline and have spoken to the recruitment guys, they explained they have to have a way to reduce the numbers and cut people out with something to go on, the personality profile tests provide them with just the tool they need to do that. It is somewhat a lottery. If you don't believe me then ask one of the numerous pilots out there who 'fail' the personality test, then 'pass' the exact same test 6 months later with the same airline. Unless you have serious mental health issues you do not change your personality in 6 months ... highly accurate tool I think not.

I'm honestly not bitter, I've gotten where I want to be in life so far and consider myself to be extremely lucky in more ways than one ... this is just an observation I and many others have made

Open Up

1123heavy wrote: »

I seriously beg to differ, it is awful naive to think nepotism has never played a role in the Aer Lingus cadetship. You have just reminded me of a time I was having a casual chat with a crew member back in Feb. I explained about my love of flying and the aer lingus cadethship etc, i specifically mentioned they take 12 and she cut across me. She then said, and I quote, "well they say 12, but in reality there's only probably about 6 when you count in those getting in through family and the likes".

I didn't need her to tell me, but it surprised me that there is obviously no secret made of it among the staff! It is foolish to think it isn't true.


As for your comment about personality profiles being highly accurate etc etc, well how come just 3 weeks ago I went to an interview and about 15 mins into it I was told my real life personality didn't match what my personality profile said about me ... ?

They are methods of reducing the numbers, it's that simple. I work for an airline and have spoken to the recruitment guys, they explained they have to have a way to reduce the numbers and cut people out with something to go on, the personality profile tests provide them with just the tool they need to do that. It is somewhat a lottery. If you don't believe me then ask one of the numerous pilots out there who 'fail' the personality test, then 'pass' the exact same test 6 months later with the same airline. Unless you have serious mental health issues you do not change your personality in 6 months ... highly accurate tool I think not.

I'm honestly not bitter, I've gotten where I want to be in life so far and consider myself to be extremely lucky in more ways than one ... this is just an observation I and many others have made

He never said they were highly accurate. Unless I missed that part. The point is that that is only part of the recruitment process. Also I work in the company and have heard many staff from all areas say stuff like that. We call it conjecture. Given that EI has over 600 pilots now and many hundreds more over the last ten or twenty years the chances of a cadet being related to one isn't inconceivable. A good friend of mine has applied for the cadetship most years and not succeeded. His sister did succeed however, and their father is a retired EI pilot. Does that prove nepotism? I don't think so.

Negative_G

1123heavy wrote: »

I seriously beg to differ, it is awful naive to think nepotism has never played a role in the Aer Lingus cadetship. You have just reminded me of a time I was having a casual chat with a crew member back in Feb. I explained about my love of flying and the aer lingus cadethship etc, i specifically mentioned they take 12 and she cut across me. She then said, and I quote, "well they say 12, but in reality there's only probably about 6 when you count in those getting in through family and the likes".

I didn't need her to tell me, but it surprised me that there is obviously no secret made of it among the staff! It is foolish to think it isn't true.


As for your comment about personality profiles being highly accurate etc etc, well how come just 3 weeks ago I went to an interview and about 15 mins into it I was told my real life personality didn't match what my personality profile said about me ... ?

They are methods of reducing the numbers, it's that simple. I work for an airline and have spoken to the recruitment guys, they explained they have to have a way to reduce the numbers and cut people out with something to go on, the personality profile tests provide them with just the tool they need to do that. It is somewhat a lottery. If you don't believe me then ask one of the numerous pilots out there who 'fail' the personality test, then 'pass' the exact same test 6 months later with the same airline. Unless you have serious mental health issues you do not change your personality in 6 months ... highly accurate tool I think not.

I'm honestly not bitter, I've gotten where I want to be in life so far and consider myself to be extremely lucky in more ways than one ... this is just an observation I and many others have made

I am glad you've gotten to where you want to be, so congratulations.

Your post above contains a lot of 'whataboutery' and opinion and contains little in the way of facts.

Personality assessments etc are a way of cutting down numbers - agreed. Again to suggest it is a lottery is disingenuous. Are they the same for every industry or is it just airlines? You're swaying dangerously close to tinfoil hat territory with that assertion. Companies don't invest money in this type of testing just to justify a way of cutting numbers down and certainly not at random or a lottery.

It's the same with any competition of this nature, the Gardai, Fire Brigade, Army, Air Corps etc etc. People are often very quick to point the finger at the mechanisms which is often followed quickly by the nepotism card.

Call me naive if you wish but I would hate to carry a chip on my shoulder, convincing myself that I didnt achieve something because it was a lottery or some other applicant must have had a relation in situ already.

Its a never ending circle. As I said already, every time the topic surfaces, people start saying how the system is flawed or that system is unfair or nepotism is rife. Applicants read this, they end up not successful and as is often the case in human nature, its easier to point the finger (and blame) toward something or someone else. Rinse and repeat.

Negative_G

@1123heavy,

After a little bit of searching, I am confused.

Regarding testing you said the following about EI testing:

Age hasnt got much to do with it, once youre in the stated age range it makes no difference at all. It's all down to how you perform at your assessments.

And the following about Air Corps testing:

...How you perform in their assessments is what it all boils down to (which I can tell you are bloody tough! )

You then changed your tune slightly..

...There are some modular guys who trained at the likes of the NFC but one can't really tell if that was on merit or if a few phone calls were made behind the scene for those to get in...

And finally to this thread..

I seriously beg to differ, it is awful naive to think nepotism has never played a role in the Aer Lingus cadetship.

And...

...the personality profile tests provide them with just the tool they need to do that. It is somewhat a lottery...

That's quite a turnaround.

deaddonkey15

I don't really have much to say on the personality tests, but assuming two candidates meet the standard for only 1 place available my money is on Candidate A from Raheny getting the gig ahead of Candidate B from Dingle.

Open Up

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I don't really have much to say on the personality tests, but assuming two candidates meet the standard for only 1 place available my money is on Candidate A from Raheny getting the gig ahead of Candidate B from Dingle.

They don't ask for your address so don't see how that comes into it.

Negative_G

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I don't really have much to say on the personality tests, but assuming two candidates meet the standard for only 1 place available my money is on Candidate A from Raheny getting the gig ahead of Candidate B from Dingle.

More nonsense.

deaddonkey15

Call it what you want. But when 3000 applications are received from all over Ireland, the UK, and beyond and the majority of cadets selected are from within 10 miles of EI head office and the airport at which they will eventually be based then that definitely raises a few eyebrows and certainly doesn't sit right with me personally.

Open Up

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Call it what you want. But when 3000 applications are received from all over Ireland, the UK, and beyond and the majority of cadets selected are from within 10 miles of EI head office and the airport at which they will eventually be based then that definitely raises a few eyebrows and certainly doesn't sit right with me personally.

They have pilots based in Cork? That's closer to Dingle... Anyway, as I said, they don't know your address. If you look at the cadets from the last few years they are from a variety of places, including overseas.

deaddonkey15

Open Up wrote: »

They have pilots based in Cork? That's closer to Dingle... Anyway, as I said, they don't know your address. If you look at the cadets from the last few years they are from a variety of places, including overseas.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the cadets are initially based in Dublin? Also, if I recall correctly an address is requested in the application process (along with the who do you know in the airline question). Nevertheless, most people would have their address on their CVs, passports and licenses which they are required to submit. Where a candidate is actually from would likely come up in an interview as well.

Open Up

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the cadets are initially based in Dublin? Also, if I recall correctly an address is requested in the application process (along with the who do you know in the airline question). Nevertheless, most people would have their address on their CVs, passports and licenses which they are required to submit. Where a candidate is actually from would likely come up in an interview as well.

I'm not going to argue on this one anymore. I think the fact that cadets have been from all over Ireland, UK, and Europe disproves your point.

deaddonkey15

Open Up wrote: »

I'm not going to argue on this one anymore. I think the fact that cadets have been from all over Ireland, UK, and Europe disproves your point.

But mainly Dublin. Look at the 2015 intake: Raheny, Sutton, Rush, Balbriggan, Ashbourne, Lucan, Rathfarnham. Literally a circle around the head office and from 3000 applications from all over Europe? What a coincidence.

Open Up

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

But mainly Dublin. Look at the 2015 intake: Raheny, Sutton, Rush, Balbriggan, Ashbourne, Lucan, Rathfarnham. Literally a circle around the head office and from 3000 applications from all over Europe? What a coincidence.

Well what, a quarter of the population lives in the Dublin area? Without seeing figures showing the numbers of applicants from other parts of the country how can we prove anything. Out of the 3000 if even 50% of those are from Dublin then there is a good chance you will have more cadets from Dublin.