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BBVA no longer funding pilot loans
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Well what, a quarter of the population lives in the Dublin area? Without seeing figures showing the numbers of applicants from other parts of the country how can we prove anything. Out of the 3000 if even 50% of those are from Dublin then there is a good chance you will have more cadets from Dublin.
Most of the Irish population doesn't live in Dublin and there are a lot more people in the UK and Europe than in Dublin. It's a very well represented place for an apparently and hopefully unbiased and fair process that's open to everyone in the EU. That it just happens to be the same place as the airline's head office and the bulk of their operations may be just a coincidence.
You may think I'm being bitter and I really don't mean to be. I'm just calling it how I see it based on the 2015 intake and the few other cadets from different years that I am aware of. As I said, all things being equal I'd rather be applying with Raheny as my address as opposed to Dingle.0 -
deaddonkey15 wrote: »Most of the Irish population doesn't live in Dublin and there are a lot more people in the UK and Europe than in Dublin. It's a very well represented place for an apparently and hopefully unbiased and fair process that's open to everyone in the EU. That it just happens to be the same place as the airline's head office and the bulk of their operations may be just a coincidence.
You may think I'm being bitter and I really don't mean to be. I'm just calling it how I see it based on the 2015 intake and the few other cadets from different years that I am aware of. As I said, all things being equal I'd rather be applying with Raheny as my address as opposed to Dingle.
You're missing the point. And I didn't say most people in Ireland live in Dublin. I do, however, believe that a large proportion of those that APPLIED are from Dublin.
This thread has gone from saying the application process only accepts people that can fool a personality assessment, have less 'interest' in aviation than unsuccessful candidates, and now they also have to be from Dublin?0 -
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You're missing the point. And I didn't say most people in Ireland live in Dublin. I do, however, believe that a large proportion of those that APPLIED are from Dublin.
This thread has gone from saying the application process only accepts people that can fool a personality assessment, have less 'interest' in aviation than unsuccessful candidates, and now they also have to be from Dublin?
I never said they have to be from Dublin, I said I've noticed that an awful lot of them are.
I get your point but I don't think it's a good one. You said a quarter of the population live in the Dublin area which may be why Dublin is so well represented. My point is the overwhelming majority of people that this scheme is actually open to do not live in Dublin so it is particularly odd then, in my opinion anyway, when the majority of cadets in the 2015 intake were from within 10-15 miles of Dublin.
If it's true that a large proportion of those applying are from Dublin than maybe 1123Heavy is right and bringing in a partly self-sponsored scheme might discourage the 'chancers'.0 -
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As an applicant who can be described as one of the aforementioned chancers here's my two cents
I have always had a general interest in aviation, have an uncle who is a retired non-airline pilot. There is also a historic family connection to Aer Lingus.
I always assumed that the self funding route was the only option in order for piloting to be a career. I also avoided taking a few lessons or trying to get a PPL as the costs would generally be beyond my means and I can think of many alternative and cheaper hobbies.
I was not on the lookout for flying opportunities.
But, when I realised last year that the cadetship was available I jumped at the chance, and ended up getting to the last 1 in 3. I had no clue going into it what the process would be like, and I make no judgement on the personality test that was my final involvement in the process. I was happy I had gotten that far, and in the preparation for the interview/assessment stage I learned a lot more about the industry than my previous more casual interest had told me.
I think I was as entitled as anyone to take my chances to see if I was what Aer Lingus wanted. I have no complaints that they chose others. I know nothing about the other people who were involved and will not make any judgements of them. I also know nothing but rumour about supposed nepotism and other biases in the process that others speak of.
Would I apply if there was a 25k cost to the training? I think I would, although I think I would not make up my mind for sure as to whether or not I would take any place offered until said place was offered. It's possible that I might decide at that stage that I wasn't in a position to take the offer, but that is largely because I am a conservative person when it comes to making decisions about my future, I take comfort in stability and the career change would be the opposite of stability.0 -
deaddonkey15 wrote: »But mainly Dublin. Look at the 2015 intake: Raheny, Sutton, Rush, Balbriggan, Ashbourne, Lucan, Rathfarnham. Literally a circle around the head office and from 3000 applications from all over Europe? What a coincidence.
how do you get access to such information?0 -
As an applicant who can be described as one of the aforementioned chancers here's my two cents
I have always had a general interest in aviation, have an uncle who is a retired non-airline pilot. There is also a historic family connection to Aer Lingus.
I always assumed that the self funding route was the only option in order for piloting to be a career. I also avoided taking a few lessons or trying to get a PPL as the costs would generally be beyond my means and I can think of many alternative and cheaper hobbies.
I was not on the lookout for flying opportunities.
But, when I realised last year that the cadetship was available I jumped at the chance, and ended up getting to the last 1 in 3. I had no clue going into it what the process would be like, and I make no judgement on the personality test that was my final involvement in the process. I was happy I had gotten that far, and in the preparation for the interview/assessment stage I learned a lot more about the industry than my previous more casual interest had told me.
I think I was as entitled as anyone to take my chances to see if I was what Aer Lingus wanted. I have no complaints that they chose others. I know nothing about the other people who were involved and will not make any judgements of them. I also know nothing but rumour about supposed nepotism and other biases in the process that others speak of.
Would I apply if there was a 25k cost to the training? I think I would, although I think I would not make up my mind for sure as to whether or not I would take any place offered until said place was offered. It's possible that I might decide at that stage that I wasn't in a position to take the offer, but that is largely because I am a conservative person when it comes to making decisions about my future, I take comfort in stability and the career change would be the opposite of stability.
Thanks for your comment, it's quite interesting. Out of interest, do you intend to apply again? Have you applied for any other airline pilot training schemes? Do you intend to self fund integrated or modular training in the future?how do you get access to such information?
http://www.independent.ie/life/travel/come-fly-with-me-next-generation-cadets-land-for-aer-lingus-pilot-training-34310461.html0 -
I will apply again, but I don't expect to get it. I failed at the personality test stage and my personality won't change. I enjoyed being in the process, enjoyed the assessment day and the aptitude tests.
I haven't applied elsewhere. I did look for alternative options but none were affordable. Not a hope of me self funding either.
I guess this is where some annoyance may develop in the minds of other unsuccessful applicants. Being a pilot is not my dream. I am not willing to turn my life upside down in an attempt to achieve a pilot career. What it is is a job that pays better than my current job and that I believe I would enjoy. I also believe that like most jobs I would be bored of it after a certain amount of time, not bored in a sense of wanting to leave, but bored in the sense that the magic would fade and it would include the tedium that most jobs have once you have been doing them for a period of time.0 -
Yes. Plenty that I have talked to, in there and outside, had no background in flying in the slightest or had had a voucher flight, at most, or had never flown in anything smaller than an airliner. Very few had an abiding interest in flying before they got in and it may surprise you to know that many airline pilots have no continuing interest in flying outside of their jobs,(to the point of actual distaste), don't fly outside their jobs, except to go on holiday and a huge amount of them do not maintain their original PPL. Being an aerosexual is not encouraged in the job; they would prefer if you devoted your energies to being a professional, with a view to further education, such as a degree, to move you upstairs in the foodchain. Airlines couldn't care less what you do on your day off, as long as you don't scare the horses or frighten the children. Equally, they don't really care what you bring in flying terms to the recruitment table, as every airline has different ideas of what a starter pilot should do or be, because they all want to mold you to their way of thinking, which is to be a professional and a good team player at all times and to never embarrass the airline.....it's a bit like professional mariners or drivers or firemen. Very few of them "do" the day job on their days off.
Have you ever noticed how plumbers houses have leaking taps, mechanics usually drive bangers, chippies doors squeak etc. If you do something 8+ hours a day the last thing you want to do on your own time is the same.0 -
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Being a pilot is not my dream. I am not willing to turn my life upside down in an attempt to achieve a pilot career. What it is is a job that pays better than my current job and that I believe I would enjoy. I also believe that like most jobs I would be bored of it after a certain amount of time
I am gonna sound awful but I think it is good you didn't get it. I don't necessarily recommend turning one's life upside down, but when I see the extents to which some have gone, the sheer determination is often admirable. Then we have people who think it'd be great craic sure why not give it a go.
Finding that first job in this business is notoriously difficult, it takes extreme determination and passion. If only more people like you were weeded out, unfortunately they're not all. Thinking it'd be something you'd enjoy so why not give it a lash. This is the wrong business. Plenty of much more deserving people out there for whom this will literally make their world complete.
Edit to add: Before cries of bitterness come out, I can already hear them. As I said, I've gotten where I wanted to be and have a cadet place in a different airline leading to the exact same aircraft type. I have no reason to be bitter. This just really annoys me, I do not blame the applicants though, they have as much a legal right to apply as everyone else. It is on the airlines for their methods of hiring, specifically these personality assessments. They weeded out lordy, but not all of them.0 -
I am gonna sound awful but I think it is good you didn't get it. I don't necessarily recommend turning one's life upside down, but when I see the extents to which some have gone, the sheer determination is often admirable. Then we have people who think it'd be great craic sure why not give it a go.
Finding that first job in this business is notoriously difficult, it takes extreme determination and passion. If only more people like you were weeded out, unfortunately they're not all. Thinking it'd be something you'd enjoy so why not give it a lash. This is the wrong business. Plenty of much more deserving people out there for whom this will literally make their world complete.
Do you mind me asking what age you are? This is basically how all areas in life work. It you feel disenfranchised for a reason like this you might be in trouble.
Knowing there are people like this in the competition, why don't you come up with a strategy to adapt and compete against them? If you think EI don't want people that are pursuing their dream, don't overemphasize it anymore. Give them what you think they want?0 -
Knowing there are people like this in the competition, why don't you come up with a strategy to adapt and compete against them? If you think EI don't want people that are pursuing their dream, don't overemphasize it anymore. Give them what you think they want?
That is a good idea and I did just this in a recent attempt, thankfully it worked. Not with EI, this issue is not EI specific though it should be noted, just as many chancers applying for other airlines! I didnt feel disenfranchised, I just had to put on my thinking cap and get around it, it was a nuisance was all. The whole selection thing is a farce nowadays really though.0 -
That is a good idea and I did just this in a recent attempt, thankfully it worked. Not with EI, this issue is not EI specific though it should be noted, just as many chancers applying for other airlines! I didnt feel disenfranchised, I just had to put on my thinking cap and get around it, it was a nuisance was all. The whole selection thing is a farce nowadays really though.
Congratulations so.0 -
Negative_G wrote: »I am glad you've gotten to where you want to be, so congratulations.
Your post above contains a lot of 'whataboutery' and opinion and contains little in the way of facts.
Personality assessments etc are a way of cutting down numbers - agreed. Again to suggest it is a lottery is disingenuous. Are they the same for every industry or is it just airlines? You're swaying dangerously close to tinfoil hat territory with that assertion. Companies don't invest money in this type of testing just to justify a way of cutting numbers down and certainly not at random or a lottery.
It's the same with any competition of this nature, the Gardai, Fire Brigade, Army, Air Corps etc etc. People are often very quick to point the finger at the mechanisms which is often followed quickly by the nepotism card.
Call me naive if you wish but I would hate to carry a chip on my shoulder, convincing myself that I didnt achieve something because it was a lottery or some other applicant must have had a relation in situ already.
Its a never ending circle. As I said already, every time the topic surfaces, people start saying how the system is flawed or that system is unfair or nepotism is rife. Applicants read this, they end up not successful and as is often the case in human nature, its easier to point the finger (and blame) toward something or someone else. Rinse and repeat.
I do believe nepotism exists, cityjet used to take on 4 mx apprentices a year, and i remember 2 of them had family in the right places.
Also if you consider RTE and how most tend to get their sons or daughters in. In fairness though if you flunk prelimerary exams then id imagine nobody can help you, its when you get to interview phase the pull can help. This is Ireland after all.0 -
I do believe nepotism exists, cityjet used to take on 4 mx apprentices a year, and i remember 2 of them had family in the right places.
Also if you consider RTE and how most tend to get their sons or daughters in. In fairness though if you flunk prelimerary exams then id imagine nobody can help you, its when you get to interview phase the pull can help. This is Ireland after all.
I certainly don't disagree that it exists. I don't think (in the majority of cases) that it happens BECAUSE of this though. Influence more likely in my opinion.0 -
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I am Currently at PPL stage. I will apply to Aer Lingus when the next cadet recruitment comes up.
I do have 2 friends in Aer Lingus. One is an FO and the other a Senior Cabin Crew. Aer Lingus do take your background and aviation interests into account.
The FO explained how he worked 2 jobs to fund his training, studied hours per week, found studies buddy's etc to get the best out of his training. He was informed that this was a big bonus as it showed commitment and dedication to the job.
I myself had the pleasure to attend the Aviation expo in the Aviva. I spoke to an Aer Lingus captain who sits in the interview board and he explained that he loves to hear wanna be pilots who take 2 jobs, who give up their luxuries and spare time to make a career in aviation. This passion and dedication follows through to your day to day job and this he explained was the type of pilots Aer Lingus wanted.
He went on to say that should he comes across a young person that had had their training funded by parents, grand parents etc and he will ask a lot more questions on why they want to become a pilot and what interests do they have in aviation.
He explained that if training is paid for by parents doe this person really want to be a pilot of does he just want the good wages? He continued on to say that he does not want to employ someone who will jump ship at the next offer of better paid employment as the airline have spent x amount training them only for them to leave became they got better money in a completely different profession.
So I do believe that a lot of dedicated people are not getting a chance while wage chasers are!!0 -
KwackerJack wrote: »I am Currently at PPL stage. I will apply to Aer Lingus when the next cadet recruitment comes up.
I do have 2 friends in Aer Lingus. One is an FO and the other a Senior Cabin Crew. Aer Lingus do take your background and aviation interests into account.
The FO explained how he worked 2 jobs to fund his training, studied hours per week, found studies buddy's etc to get the best out of his training. He was informed that this was a big bonus as it showed commitment and dedication to the job.
I myself had the pleasure to attend the Aviation expo in the Aviva. I spoke to an Aer Lingus captain who sits in the interview board and he explained that he loves to hear wanna be pilots who take 2 jobs, who give up their luxuries and spare time to make a career in aviation. This passion and dedication follows through to your day to day job and this he explained was the type of pilots Aer Lingus wanted.
He went on to say that should he comes across a young person that had had their training funded by parents, grand parents etc and he will ask a lot more questions on why they want to become a pilot and what interests do they have in aviation.
He explained that if training is paid for by parents doe this person really want to be a pilot of does he just want the good wages? He continued on to say that he does not want to employ someone who will jump ship at the next offer of better paid employment as the airline have spent x amount training them only for them to leave became they got better money in a completely different profession.
So I do believe that a lot of dedicated people are not getting a chance while wage chasers are!!
So he wants the Aviation equivalent of Oliver Twist? I worked for EI as an engineer and felt it was too limiting career wise and financially. I left after less than 2 years, it wasn't the worst job in the world ,but there was too many brainwashed arrogant ar$eholes who thought they were gods just because they worked for the Irish flag carrier. I've never met such miserable lads in my whole career so far.
This chief pilot sounds like he wants an obedient gob****e who can be molded in any way.0 -
Aer Lingus doing this may well be great, if gets rid of those who were doing a degree in the arts in circus college and suddenly decide they want to be a pilot getting it whilst genuine candidates missed out for silly reasons.
Too many people with no background and little demonstrated previous interest in aviation get the aer lingus cadetship whereas genuinely good candidates who have wanted to be pilots for a long while don't ... often times they fall short of the questionable "personality profile" test in existence (which entails questions such as "do you watch pornography?") but others with no previous interest just happen to pass it.
Demand some commitment but not beyond reason (25,000 eu was just right imo) and do away with the chancers
Hmmm
If someone is willing to go through the application process is that not proof enough of their interest?0 -
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KwackerJack wrote: »
He explained that if training is paid for by parents doe this person really want to be a pilot of does he just want the good wages? He continued on to say that he does not want to employ someone who will jump ship at the next offer of better paid employment as the airline have spent x amount training them only for them to leave became they got better money in a completely different profession.
That doesn't sound quite right. How would the interviewer know who paid for the person's training? It's different when going for a cadet role that requires you to pay out your own pocket to ask who is funding it, because they need to know whether you will be applying for loans etc and that is something they need to take into account for planning purposes.
But if you're trying to suggest that a person with a CV of 500+ hrs on the A320 or other commercial aircraft is gonna be asked who paid for his training and if he got family help (you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who didn't even borrow a few grand off family during the process) then he's in for a grilling ... well with the greatest respect that is simply not true at all.
Their priorities are whether you are dedicated to the role. Most people who went abroad for their training, worked abroad for their first job, even stayed home but gave up a job to focus on training etc have already demonstrated motivation and dedication to the role. Next up is your motivation to work for Aer Lingus. Then last (but arguably most important) is whether that person on the other side of the table would want to sit beside you for a 10 hr trip to Lanzarote and back without wanting to throw you out the window on the return ... are you likable.
Could it be that you asked him whether they grill those who had family help more than those that didn't and you wanted it to be the case that they did so you suffered from a bit of confirmation bias from whatever he said back to you? Whilst all different, few pilots make such blanket generalisations of how they view certain people, especially when they are actually representing a company at an official event.0
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