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The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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  • #422
    Ken.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,898 ✭✭✭✭Ken.


    masculinist wrote: »
    So you think its your body right up until the day you give birth ? I see two bodies. If that second body was put there through rape or molestation .i.e against the will of the first body, or if it was endangering your life then I can understand the need to remove it and I'd not blame you. However if that second body , that second life was put there due to the consenting behavior of the mother then I'm not convinced because I see a life there for whom you'd be fully ethically responsible in my view.

    If someone punched a pregnant lady in the stomach and she had a miscarriage , I'd fully believe that person to have committed murder. Similarly I would have a dim view of someone pregnant who was drinking , smoking and taking various drugs etc. How would you view this ? Its a big nothing if the baby is born with fetal alcohol syndrome with disabilities and significantly lower IQ ?

    Just for the record and before I reply to the above, everyone here knows i'm a man right? Was Ken,changed my name for SSF.


    As I have previously stated I believe that a woman's body is hers right up to the minute of birth.

    If a person caused a woman to have a miscarriage it's assault.

    Drinking,smoking etc. As long as its within the law fire ahead. My mother smoked and drank while pregnant with all her children and there is not one of us under 6 foot tall and fully healthy.


  • #423
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    masculinist wrote: »
    Every time you have sex , you know you risk creating a life. Knowing the consequences and taking responsibility for them is called being an adult.
    Feminists have no problem telling a man on the hook for child support that he should ''keep it in his pants'' or ''man up'' . Adult women, particularly the feminists being offended at a requirement to ''woman up'' and take responsibility for their actions seem to be the hypocrites here.
    As a woman, faced with an unplanned pregnancy I'd ask myself the following

    - do I have the fathers support?
    - do I want it?
    - can I afford it?
    - is this the right time?
    - is having an abortion an option?

    If I answer no more than I answer yes, should I be forced to put my body, my physical and mental health through 9 months of stress and torture?


  • #424
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    me_right_one wrote: »
    The repeal side wanted to remove the 8th so that Ireland would have an abortion-on-demand system. They didnt realise that repealing it would not automatically lead to such a system, but they were correct insofar as it would be a step towards it.

    They knew full well what repeal would mean legally. They've been talking about the successor legislation for months.
    me_right_one wrote: »
    The outcome from yesterday means that the unborn still have EQUAL right to life as anyone else. This rules out abortion-on-demand completely. It is now off the table.

    You haven't understood at all.

    They've recommended a version of repeal and replace that is functionally the same as repeal, except that it preserves the right to travel and information. It's actually even better than repeal.

    The equal right to life is not in the recommendation- it is to be specifically defined in legislation that the Oireachtas can revise through the legislative process. The right to life is to be removed from the constitution under the CA recommendation.

    Read ballot 3.
    me_right_one wrote: »
    What is left to decide is when it will be ok to abort for reasons other than medical (which was legalised in 2013). The CA will likely recommend a referendum on an amendment to the 8th which will allow lawful abortion in certain non-medical cases, ie incest and rape.

    No, referendum is already required in their recommendation. What's left is the recommendation on the legislation the Oireachtas will put in place after repeal and replace. Legislation they will be able to change later based on the Oireachtas' interpretation of the will of the people. This is what the Coalition to Repeal wanted.
    me_right_one wrote: »
    I am pro-life. I do not see this as a good outcome, although at least it smashes any ambitions of abortion-on-demand ever being legal.

    It really doesn't. I really don't think your side has understood what's happening here. The worst possible outcome for you.


  • #425
    masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭masculinist


    Barbie! wrote: »

    As I have previously stated I believe that a woman's body is hers right up to the minute of birth.

    Theres 2 bodies there right up to the moment of birth. its not a question of belief


  • #426
    somefeen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭somefeen


    masculinist wrote: »
    Lets be logical here now . What exactly is your problem ? Are you judging promiscuous women ? Because I was not. I even went so far as to praise them. However if a life is created through a consensual action then its time to be an adult and take responsibility. And that is very different from a non consenting situation. And why the name calling ? I have never been a hypocrite. Not even once.
    This is why sjws and feminists are so difficult to have a logical discussion with. They only see what they want to see. And when they cant find a logical argument , they resort to name calling.

    You seem to be the one who is failing to grasp logic.
    From what I've extracted from your posts you have one point; that abortion should be available where the pregnancy was the result of rape or is a threat to the mother's life.
    Why you feel the need to wrap such a basic point in fluff and absurd analogies is beyond me. As is your belief that you are being selectively quoted when asked a basic question that is at the heart of the debate.

    While we're at it, calling someone a hypocrite is a true or false statement that can be argued. Name calling is using a term like 'SJW' for people you don't agree with.
    You are a hypocrite if you believe 'promiscuous' women should not be allowed abortion but 'promiscuous' men should be allowed to walk away without responsibility.
    Maybe that is not your belief, but you seem to have put more effort into appearing intelligent and enlightened with your writing than you did on being clear.


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  • #427
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    Do you see what you are doing here, you are forcing victimhood onto women to assuage your morality.

    As long as the woman is a victim abortion is ok but she be damned if she is in total control of herself, her body and her decisions.

    masculinist wrote: »
    So you think its your body right up until the day you give birth ? I see two bodies. If that second body was put there through rape or molestation .i.e against the will of the first body, or if it was endangering your life then I can understand the need to remove it and I'd not blame you. However if that second body , that second life was put there due to the consenting behavior of the mother then I'm not convinced because I see a life there for whom you'd be fully ethically responsible in my view.

    If someone punched a pregnant lady in the stomach and she had a miscarriage , I'd fully believe that person to have committed murder. Similarly I would have a dim view of someone pregnant who was drinking , smoking and taking various drugs etc. How would you view this ? Its a big nothing if the baby is born with fetal alcohol syndrome with disabilities and significantly lower IQ ?


  • #428
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Why do I get the impression that only the promiscuous women get saddled with the baby by posters like the one you're replying to?

    I bet he has no plans to force fathers to bring up the child if the mother doesn't want it, never mind do so himself!

    As for "consensual sex" meaning consensual parenthood, it's laughable, or it should be. Are you consenting to get lung cancer every time you smoke? Or to get sunburn if you don't buy the most effective sun creams when on holiday and use them without fail? So if you get sun stroke or lung cancer, the doctor tells you to live with it? :rolleyes:

    You must be psychic!!! No response to my questions....the usual twisting and changing the subject.

    masculinist wrote: »
    Again you only see what you want to see. You've created a false argument so you can argue with yourself. I have the right to judge anyone I want and vice versa. However I have not done so despite all your conniptions. Men are mercilessly judged all the time. Thankfully by not all women but theres a certain type of women who want all the benefits of living in a civilized adult society and none of the responsibilities. My children want for nothing. So less of the false accusations please eh ?
    I can see now that victims of rape dont seem to be your main priority here otherwise you would have found some common ground. You are more concerned with abortion on demand of a life created by consent by a responsible adult. And I cannot support that.

    Come back to me when you can answer what was asked without your nasty comments please.


  • #429
    masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭masculinist


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    As a woman, faced with an unplanned pregnancy I'd ask myself the following

    - do I have the fathers support?
    - do I want it?
    - can I afford it?
    - is this the right time?
    - is having an abortion an option?

    If I answer no more than I answer yes, should I be forced to put my body, my physical and mental health through 9 months of stress and torture?


    What about a man facing an unplanned pregnancy ? What if he cant afford it and if its not the right time for him ? What if he doesnt have the mothers support in things like access , and access to his wallet etc ? Thats 18 plus years of torture for him or even longer if the kid goes to college.
    The feminists who demand he either ''keeps it in his pants'' or ''mans up'' and pays child support dont have any demands of adult women who consented to that situation and are morally and ethically responsible for it.


  • #430
    gizmo81
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭gizmo81


    Wrong, birth is the start of life as a physically separate being.
    masculinist wrote: »
    Theres 2 bodies there right up to the moment of birth. its not a question of belief


  • #431
    masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭masculinist


    somefeen wrote: »
    You seem to be the one who is failing to grasp logic.
    From what I've extracted from your posts you have one point; that abortion should be available where the pregnancy was the result of rape or is a threat to the mother's life.
    Why you feel the need to wrap such a basic point in fluff and absurd analogies is beyond me. As is your belief that you are being selectively quoted when asked a basic question that is at the heart of the debate.

    While we're at it, calling someone a hypocrite is a true or false statement that can be argued. Name calling is using a term like 'SJW' for people you don't agree with.
    You are a hypocrite if you believe 'promiscuous' women should not be allowed abortion but 'promiscuous' men should be allowed to walk away without responsibility.
    Maybe that is not your belief, but you seem to have put more effort into appearing intelligent and enlightened with your writing than you did on being clear.

    I'm pointing out the facts and in each case the fact that an innocent baby could be harmed because of the pasttimes of responsible literate adults who are completely responsible for the consequences of their own actions is completely ignored in an extremely sinister way in favor of silly ad hominems and unintellectual crap.
    As for the sjw/feminist stuff. Thats exactly what they stand for . Its all overt the web, their websites, forums and facebook groups telling men to ''man up'' and '' keep it in their pants'' if a condom fails. However telling women to ''woman up'' and be responsible for the life they created or ''keep their panties on'' causes hypocritical fits of violent rage. I'm not judgemental at all. However I am pointing out the double standard.
    gizmo81 wrote: »
    Do you see what you are doing here, you are forcing victimhood onto women to assuage your morality.

    As long as the woman is a victim abortion is ok but she be damned if she is in total control of herself, her body and her decisions.

    The only morality I have expressed on this thread is the one of
    ''Thou shalt not kill''

    Nothing else is relevant but you are avoiding it.

    notjustsweet wrote: »
    Come back to me when you can answer what was asked without your nasty comments please.

    I never went anywhere near you . I commented on the thread and you had nothing to say of any substance. Instead you avoided the real argument and decided the personal was the way to go. I can only tolerate hormonal type arguments from women who are actually pregnant. They can beat on me all day. However you're on here advocating for abortion while getting all emotional about everything except the innocent life of a baby. I can meet you half way on the issue of rape , molestation , forced pregnancy, minors, mentally incapacitated etc. However thats as far as it goes.


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  • #432
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    masculinist wrote: »
    What about a man facing an unplanned pregnancy ? What if he cant afford it and if its not the right time for him ? What if he doesnt have the mothers support in things like access , and access to his wallet etc ? Thats 18 plus years of torture for him or even longer if the kid goes to college.
    The feminists who demand he either ''keeps it in his pants'' or ''mans up'' and pays child support dont have any demands of adult women who consented to that situation and are morally and ethically responsible for it.
    I 100% agree it's not fair to force a man into being a dad if it's something he isn't ready for. You'll get no arguement out of me on that. However, what's his options? Force the pregnant woman into an abortion? That's not right.

    Given the fact the foetus is 100% reliant on the mothers body to form, be nurtured, kept safe and delivered from her - it's the mothers choice.
    Now, I would hope it's something she didn't rush into, that she talked it through with her partner and took his feelings and opinions on board before making a decision but ultimately a man does not have to go through the physical trauma of pregnancy or childbirth, nor the mental stress that goes with it. The woman is 100% alone here.

    We have no right to push her to put her body through that and it isn't comparable to a man having to open his wallet for the next 18 years, I'm sorry


  • #433
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Barbie! wrote: »
    me_right_one wrote: »
    Even if that means killing someone else's body?

    Woman's body-Woman's choice. The fetus is not a person till its born. Up to about 25 weeks it wouldn't survive without the mother so it is part of her and if she doesn't want that part of her anymore thats her choice.

    Last I checked a baby can't survive without a parent for several years after birth ... Can't even talk for several years. Does that make it ok to kill it?


  • #434
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    masculinist wrote:
    What about a man facing an unplanned pregnancy ? What if he cant afford it and if its not the right time for him ? What if he doesnt have the mothers support in things like access , and access to his wallet etc ? Thats 18 plus years of torture for him or even longer if the kid goes to college. The feminists who demand he either ''keeps it in his pants'' or ''mans up'' and pays child support dont have any demands of adult women who consented to that situation and are morally and ethically responsible for it.


    There is no answer to that question though is there?

    On the subject of giving birth there is an inequality that will never be changed unless science changes matters.


  • #435
    jaja321
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 793 ✭✭✭jaja321


    Majority of CA vote for abortion without restriction as to reason. A far more progressive vote than many on the repeal side could have hoped for.


  • #436
    masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭masculinist


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    ultimately a man does not have to go through the physical trauma of pregnancy or childbirth, nor the mental stress that goes with it. The woman is 100% alone here.

    We have no right to push her to put her body through that and it isn't comparable to a man having to open his wallet for the next 18 years, I'm sorry

    I wouldn't agree with that. When I heard the news that I was going to become a dad, the little finger in one of my hands went numb immediately and for months. Doctors still have no explanation. My blood pressure , heart rate , body fat, bloodwork etc is perfect. I then cut back a lifestyle where I went away for the weekend, Prague , Berlin , etc etc 15 or more times a year to working every hour I could get so she can have a nice home and go to a nice school, afterschools etc. I then went and looked for huge levels of life insurance because I cant go wandering around the world carefree about what I leave behind any longer. I took responsibility for my baby.

    The level of stress is directly related to what type of person you are. People who dont care about their kids dont have any stress. And feminists think the worst of men who are supposed to ''man up'' and ''keep it in their pants''. But a woman can just walk away any time she wants, drop the kid into an orphanage etc while being offended at any suggestion that she has a responsibility towards anyone but herself .


  • #437
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    masculinist wrote: »
    I wouldn't agree with that. When I heard the news that I was going to become a dad, the little finger in one of my hands went numb immediately and for months. Doctors still have no explanation. My blood pressure , heart rate , body fat, bloodwork etc is perfect. I then cut back a lifestyle where I went away for the weekend, Prague , Berlin , etc etc 15 or more times a year to working every hour I could get so she can have a nice home and go to a nice school, afterschools etc. I then went and looked for huge levels of life insurance because I cant go wandering around the world carefree about what I leave behind any longer. I took responsibility for my baby.

    The level of stress is directly related to what type of person you are. People who dont care about their kids dont have any stress. And feminists think the worst of men who are supposed to ''man up'' and ''keep it in their pants''. But a woman can just walk away any time she wants, drop the kid into an orphanage etc while being offended at any suggestion that she has a responsibility towards anyone but herself .

    Did you want the baby?


  • #438
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    masculinist wrote: »
    I can only tolerate hormonal type arguments from women who are actually pregnant.

    With yet another personal dig - because it doesn't seem you can write a post without one- I'm done with discussing it with you.


  • #439
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Unrestricted abortions up to 12 weeks, good bye special olympics


  • #440
    somefeen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭somefeen


    masculinist wrote: »
    I can only tolerate hormonal type arguments from women who are actually pregnant.

    ...can you tolerate them from men? Because I can guarantee that reading the above increased the testosterone levels in my blood by a significant level.
    If this is the way you speak then its fairly obvious that any argument you have for/against abortion or a father's choice to take or not take responsibility is based purely on your own sexism.


  • #441
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    judeboy101 wrote: »
    Unrestricted abortions up to 12 weeks, good bye special olympics

    Odd, all the countries with abortion still seem to send athletes to the Special Olympics.


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  • #442
    masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭masculinist


    LexieOnRale wrote: »
    Did you want the baby?

    I wanted to be a good dad and take responsibility for the consequences of my actions which I did.

    I think women should do the equivalent, to be good mothers and take responsibility for their actions. If they think their partner isnt a good person or cant support a child then they need to reconsider the morality of creating an innocent human life with the intentions of snuffing it out because it doesnt suit their lifestyle and pasttimes. The typical sjw/feminist argument is to immediately switch to personal attacks. If you disagree with them then youre a terrible person. Emotional arguments wont sway intelligent people who matter. Logic should swing the decision and nothing else.

    Theres an awful lot of ad hominem and intentionally misread posts on this thread coupled with emotional claims of being ''insulted'' by an expectation that adult women should be responsible adults. Maybe this overemotional reaction is due to guilt which cant be expressed because its ignored - guilt at creating an innocent human life with the intentions of snuffing it out because it doesnt suit their lifestyle and pasttimes. Maybe some have already had an abotion and dont want to face the reality of what they did . Its all irrelevant to the fact that at some point you have to face the facts that theres 2 bodies at stake and when that second body was invited in then this isnt some sort of game or situation where one can avoid moral and ethical responsibility for the consequences of decisions. You may be able to avoid legal responsibility but you'll always know in your own conscience whether it was the right decision or not.


  • #443
    BabyCheeses
    Closed Accounts Posts: 778 ✭✭✭BabyCheeses


    jaja321 wrote: »
    Majority of CA vote for abortion without restriction as to reason. A far more progressive vote than many on the repeal side could have hoped for.

    Majority support abortion up to 12 weeks without reason. Support in cases of rape and FFA. I think there's going to be a meltdown but not as the OP thought.


  • #444
    tigger123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,593 ✭✭✭tigger123


    masculinist wrote: »
    I wanted to be a good dad and take responsibility for the consequences of my actions which I did.

    I think women should do the equivalent, to be good mothers and take responsibility for their actions. If they think their partner isnt a good person or cant support a child then they need to reconsider the morality of creating an innocent human life with the intentions of snuffing it out because it doesnt suit their lifestyle and pasttimes. The typical sjw/feminist argument is to immediately switch to personal attacks. If you disagree with them then youre a terrible person. Emotional arguments wont sway intelligent people who matter. Logic should wing the decision and nothing else.

    Theres an awful lot of ad hominem and intentionally misread posts on this thread coupled with emotional claims of being ''insulted'' by an expectation that adult women should be responsible adults. Maybe this overemotional reaction is due to guilt which cant be expressed because its ignored - guilt at creating an innocent human life with the intentions of snuffing it out because it doesnt suit their lifestyle and pasttimes. Maybe some have already had an abotion and dont want to face the reality of what they did . Its all irrelevant to the fact that at some point you have to face the facts that theres 2 bodies at stake and when that second body was invited in then this isnt some sort of game or situation where one can avoid responsibility.

    On the one hand you're criticizing people for not entering into an online debate in a mature manner, and on the other hand you're deliberately using
    language to goad those who would argue against you.


  • #445
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Odd, all the countries with abortion still seem to send athletes to the Special Olympics.

    Just not Downs Syndrome


  • #446
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    infogiver wrote: »
    Just not Downs Syndrome

    Well that's wrong too.


  • #447
    njs030
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭njs030


    Assembly votes for abortion with 'no restrictions'
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0423/869597-the-citizens-assembly-reconvenes-in-dublin/

    Up to 12 weeks.


  • #448
    AtomicHorror
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,888 ✭✭✭AtomicHorror


    BabyCheeses wrote: »
    Majority support abortion up to 12 weeks without reason. Support in cases of rape and FFA. I think there's going to be a meltdown but not as the OP thought.

    Yeah, OP could not gave gauged this worse. The smirking comment about amending the repeal t-shirts must ring pretty hollow.


  • #449
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,223 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    somefeen wrote: »
    We've been arguing about this for what, 20 years now?

    About 35.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #450
    judeboy101
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    AtomicHorror wrote: »
    Odd, all the countries with abortion still seem to send athletes to the Special Olympics.

    north korea and sudan have abortion ( better abortion than our own regime) but dont do Special olympics So it cant be ALL countries, can it?


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  • #451
    masculinist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭masculinist


    tigger123 wrote: »
    On the one hand you're criticizing people for not entering into an online debate in a mature manner, and on the other hand you're deliberately using
    language to goad those who would argue against you.

    Ridiculous nonsense. You should engage with the argument. Not attempt to censor it . This is actually an extremely serious issue despite your lack of respect.


This discussion has been closed.
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