Mark your diaries! Pope Frank coming to Ireland - August 2018

Fleawuss

J C wrote: »

One good thing about this post is that we are now under no illusions what you think of all Christians ... and what everybody else, who doesn't dissociate themselves from it also thinks.

Lol. The desperate post of a true believer in..... trying to remain "culturally" relevant! Are you a peddler of the dogmas?

looksee

Why would anyone in this forum dissociate themselves from it? If you want people to agree with you go post in Christianity!

Hotblack Desiato

I think it's fair to say that one would have to be more than a bit thick to believe in the literal truth of the bible given that it contradicts many known scientific facts.

robindch

Seems that Pope Frank did everything he could, and finally announces that he'll be visiting Dublin on 25th and 26th of August to close an event called "The World Meeting of Families".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-francis-announces-he-will-visit-ireland-this-year-1.3434835

Clear your diaries or something like that I suppose.

smacl

robindch wrote: »

Seems that Pope Frank did everything he could, and finally announces that he'll be visiting Dublin on 25th and 26th of August to close an event called "The World Meeting of Families".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-francis-announces-he-will-visit-ireland-this-year-1.3434835

Clear your diaries or something like that I suppose.

Reading the RTE website it seems the full title of the event should read "The World meeting of Families (other than single parent families and LGBT families)"

RTE wrote:

Meanwhile, the Association of Catholic Priests has called on Archbishop Martin to clarify why two references to non-traditional families, including LGBT households, have been dropped by the World Meeting of Families from its official material.

plus ça change...

recedite

smacl wrote: »

the full title of the event should read "The World meeting of Families (other than single parent families and LGBT families)".

The Rebel Alliance are organising "a pre-WMOF public event" in April, if that is more to your taste.
Or if you just can't contain yourself waiting for the main event.

pauldla

I'll be flying back to far Cathay on the 20th, just before he arrives. Such a pity.

Peregrinus

pauldla wrote: »

I'll be flying back to far Cathay on the 20th, just before he arrives. Such a pity.

Your disappointment will be exceeded only by his, I dare say.

feargale

robindch wrote: »

Seems that Pope Frank did everything he could, and finally announces that he'll be visiting Dublin on 25th and 26th of August to close an event.

Will Dickie Dawkins be coming to protest?

pauldla

Peregrinus wrote: »

Your disappointment will be exceeded only by his, I dare say.

Well he never replied to my invite to my housewarming. Yes, I hold a grudge.

notincluding

this pope is a traitor to catholics

moneymad

An organisation who's pastime it is to have sex with children. I hope his plane doesnt land.

smacl

recedite wrote: »

The Rebel Alliance are organising "a pre-WMOF public event" in April, if that is more to your taste.
Or if you just can't contain yourself waiting for the main event.

The two days of the year I'd actually planned ahead to do my hair on. Shame.

FWIW, I've no problem with the Pope visiting. Neither do I have any great interest in attending. Beyond the spectacle of the visit, it will be interesting to see if it has any lasting effect. Will people start going back to church on Sunday? Will young men and women once again line up to join the seminaries and become priests? I'm guessing not, and from what I gather this could be the last papal visit for some time as the Vatican get more bang for their buck sending the pope to larger poorer countries. Also be interesting to see the crowd sizes and composition in relation to the JP2 visit. I'm guessing a lot of school kids will be dragged along to bolster the numbers, but don't reckon the sale of memorial plates, mugs and t-shirts will touch previous highs.

vicwatson

robindch wrote: »

Seems that Pope Frank did everything he could, and finally announces that he'll be visiting Dublin on 25th and 26th of August to close an event called "The World Meeting of Families".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-francis-announces-he-will-visit-ireland-this-year-1.3434835

Clear your diaries or something like that I suppose.

Far cry from the original post that he would tour for 5 days, thankfully.

What’s gonna bug me is that RTE will be all over this like a rash to enhance their love of populism.

Doctor DooM

What a dick.

a) 26th's my birthday.

b) I'm running Celtic Throwdown (competitive gaming event )that weekend and international travellers for it are gonna get stung for the hotel room money now.

Maybe he's secretly a beast at Tekken. I bet he'd play King.

Hotblack Desiato

pauldla wrote: »

I'll be flying back to far Cathay on the 20th, just before he arrives. Such a pity.

It would be an awful shame if substantial numbers of people ordered the FREE tickets online and then failed to turn up.

Terrible altogether.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

It would be an awful shame if substantial numbers of people ordered the FREE tickets online and then failed to turn up.

Where might these tickets be on offer, just so as everybody can ensure they don't order one in error?

Hotblack Desiato

The site to avoid is https://www.worldmeeting2018.ie/en/Tickets/Tickets-Registration

Although the IT implied you could book free tickets to the two events online, you have to book those via a diocese it appears. Online you can book the relatively pricey 3 day conference and 'free' events package.

magicbastarder

notincluding wrote: »

this pope is a traitor to catholics

Must be difficult trying to square away the above belief with a belief in papal infallibility.

notincluding

Doctor DooM wrote: »

What a dick.

a) 26th's my birthday.

b) I'm running Celtic Throwdown (competitive gaming event )that weekend and international travellers for it are gonna get stung for the hotel room money now.

Maybe he's secretly a beast at Tekken. I bet he'd play King.

this is your best opportunity to take down the Pope Doctor

Pherekydes

I missed the last one because I was in the army and all leave was cancelled.

Not missing this one! I'm doing a "Paddy Hickey" on it and tout me some tickets. :pac:

magicbastarder

Pherekydes wrote: »

I missed the last one because I was in the army and all leave was cancelled.

i was at the last one. all i can remember was feeling bored, and being given a lollipop the size of my face to keep me occupied.

aidan24326

feargale wrote: »

Will Dickie Dawkins be coming to protest?

I'm sure Dawkins has better things to be doing.

It won't be the big deal it was in 1980 but I'm still a bit surprised that they're predicting half a million people will attend.

I wonder will this just be a big PR excercise or does he plan to actually address any of the issues relating to the systematic abuse that occurred here? He surely cannot avoid that? Or will it just be brushed over and then we go for dinner in Aras An Uachtarain and do lots of hand-shaking and photo-opping?

smacl

aidan24326 wrote: »

I wonder will this just be a big PR excercise or does he plan to actually address any of the issues relating to the systematic abuse that occurred here?

Former disguised as latter to aid former.

He surely cannot avoid that? Or will it just be brushed over and then we go for dinner in Aras An Uachtarain and do lots of hand-shaking and photo-opping?

Wouldn't it be fantastic if our current president showed a bit of solidarity with his predecessor and told Francis&Co they weren't welcome in the Aras and to take their gathering elsewhere?

recedite

As Leo Varadkar pointed out, its a visit by a head of state, not a state visit. The difference being that he was not invited by the state.
Therefore I don't envisage any dinner in the Aras. More like a kick up the aras.
The state will still have to shell out a massive amount of money for security though, because we can't have eggs being thrown at a foreign head of (a mickey mouse) state while they are in the country.

beefburrito

robindch wrote: »

Seems that Pope Frank did everything he could, and finally announces that he'll be visiting Dublin on 25th and 26th of August to close an event called "The World Meeting of Families".

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-francis-announces-he-will-visit-ireland-this-year-1.3434835

Clear your diaries or something like that I suppose.

Clear diarys for what ???

Im totally lost, there's no logic in your post....

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/families-in-all-shapes-and-forms-should-be-celebrated-taoiseach-1.3442465

Irish Times wrote:

Fianna Fail leader Micheal Martin had said that a “very positive way to approach the visit would be if politicians refrained from trying to tell the Pope what he should and should not do while he is here”.

A positive way to approach the visit would be if the pope refrained from trying to tell our politicians what they should and should not do while he's here, too

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/families-in-all-shapes-and-forms-should-be-celebrated-taoiseach-1.3442465



A positive way to approach the visit would be if the pope refrained from trying to tell our politicians what they should and should not do while he's here, too

Just as well the Pope really has free rein to advise instruct and inform Catholics in just about any subject he likes.
It’s wonderful living in a democracy where everyone gets to voice their opinion ! I love it!

Pherekydes

splinter65 wrote: »

Just as well the Pope really has free rein to advise instruct and inform Catholics in just about any subject he likes.
It’s wonderful living in a democracy where everyone gets to voice their opinion ! I love it!

They may not all be Catholic.

splinter65

Pherekydes wrote: »

They may not all be Catholic.

Sure if your not a Catholic then you don’t have to pay any heed. Even if you are a Catholic you don’t have to pay any heed.

Hotblack Desiato

Yes, he's only claiming to be the supreme representative on earth of your god. Sure why would anyone be listening to the likes of him atall atall?

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Yes, he's only claiming to be the supreme representative on earth of your god. Sure why would anyone be listening to the likes of him atall atall?

He is the leader of the worlds 1billion + Catholics.
Catholics are being invited to listen to him.
No Catholics will be arrested if they don’t listen to him.
If your not a Catholic Hotblack then why does he, who he is, what or who he represents, what he says, where he goes etc even raise a blip on your consciousness never mind annoy you to the level it seems to do?
Incidentally what is he saying that is inconveniencing you or your family or frightening you as a non Catholic?
I’ve no interest in anything Michael Nugent or Dawkins have to say, but I’ve no problem with either of them having their say and I’m respectful of anyone who does want to listen to them.
Ideally, what would you like to happen?

Hotblack Desiato

I'd like him to make full financial restitution for child abuse on behalf of the dioceses and orders, then go home.

There are only two things which bother me about his visit - the trappings and expense of a state visit when it was the Irish RC hierarchy who invited him not the state, and the fawning/influence of our politicians. If catholics want to go see him, knock themselves out.

You seem to be somewhat conflicted - on the one hand you say it doesn't really matter what he says or does because anyone is free to take or leave it, but on the other hand he's the leader of zillions of catholics and therefore what he says and does is a big deal. Doublethink?

splinter65

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

I'd like him to make full financial restitution for child abuse on behalf of the dioceses and orders, then go home.

There are only two things which bother me about his visit - the trappings and expense of a state visit when it was the Irish RC hierarchy who invited him not the state, and the fawning/influence of our politicians. If catholics want to go see him, knock themselves out.

You seem to be somewhat conflicted - on the one hand you say it doesn't really matter what he says or does because anyone is free to take or leave it, but on the other hand he's the leader of zillions of catholics and therefore what he says and does is a big deal. Doublethink?

What kind of a financial figure would you be looking at there Hotblack.
Taking into account that a lot of victims of clerical abuse have been compensated. Would those victims get some of this compensation or would it be reserved for those who haven’t had compensation yet.
Or do you mean for the money to go to the state to cover what is has paid out already? Do you attribute any responsibilty to the state at all for how the insistutions were run?
If the religious orders weren’t running the institutions then who would you have preferred to run them and how do you imagine, given the universal attitude to lone parents and orphaned or abandoned children prevalent in the world at the time, they would have been run any different?
Would you get as upset at a visit from say, the Chinese Premier, the Saudi king, or anywhere else where human rights abuses are widespread?
Is it safe to say that you are already nauseated by the celebratory hoohaa that will grip the country while he’s here?

Cabaal

Well, I said I'd book the time off and it's sorted, going to be a pleasure to protest the visit.

Most sane people have an issue with a corrupt organisation that abused kids and has failed to take any meaningful action since they've been found out

splinter65

Cabaal wrote: »

Well, I said I'd book the time off and it's sorted, going to be a pleasure to protest the visit.

Most sane people have an issue with a corrupt organisation that abused kids and has failed to take any meaningful action since they've been found out

Looks like there’s going to be a lot of insane people around those couple of days.

Hotblack Desiato

splinter65 wrote: »

What kind of a financial figure would you be looking at there Hotblack.
Taking into account that a lot of victims of clerical abuse have been compensated. Would those victims get some of this compensation or would it be reserved for those who haven’t had compensation yet.
Or do you mean for the money to go to the state to cover what is has paid out already? Do you attribute any responsibilty to the state at all for how the insistutions were run?
If the religious orders weren’t running the institutions then who would you have preferred to run them and how do you imagine, given the universal attitude to lone parents and orphaned or abandoned children prevalent in the world at the time, they would have been run any different?
Would you get as upset at a visit from say, the Chinese Premier, the Saudi king, or anywhere else where human rights abuses are widespread?
Is it safe to say that you are already nauseated by the celebratory hoohaa that will grip the country while he’s here?

Pure whataboutery.

The debt of the Roman Catholic Church to the Irish state is about 1.5 billion euro, last I heard.

Who would I have preferred to run state-funded institutions? Not a gang of child rapists and child rape apologists, that's for sure. You walked yourself into that one.

As far as I am aware, the Chinese premier, the Saudi king, or for that matter the North Korean leader, have - despite whatever other wrongdoings on their behalf - never conspired in the wholesale rape of Irish children.

robindch

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The debt of the Roman Catholic Church to the Irish state is about 1.5 billion euro, last I heard.

Depends on what you mean by "debt" and the "Roman Catholic Church"

At the risk of rehashing and going off-topic, the RCC is not party to the 2002 indemnity deal which lead to the creation of the Residential Institutions Redress Board. Instead, there are around 18 or so independent religious congregations which were covered by the indemnity deal and government policy now is that these congregations should pay half of the costs which run to around €1.7 billion euro.

Unfortunately, the religious congregations have, so far, paid much less than that and of what has been transferred has mostly been in the form of schools and similar lands which were valued, then transferred to state ownership at that value, but which were obviously never salable.

The institutional RCC has denied any involvement in the scandal and the government does not seem to have pursued them with any noticeable energy to clarify this. Herr Ratzinger in his pastoral letter to Ireland some years ago stated that the RCC in Ireland was legally independent of the Vatican and this was similarly unchallenged. And some (most? all?) of the religious orders which were party to the agreement have since placed their assets into trusts of one kind or another which makes it more difficult to pursue the orders for payment.

corks finest

robindch wrote: »

Next August, Pope Frank is going to board an aircraft somewhere - I'm assuming he's not coming via Irish Ferries or Stena Line - and take off for a six-day visit to Ireland from the 21st to the 26th of August.

No activities have been positively confirmed yet, but it's understood that he's hoping to attend something called the "World Meeting of Families" taking place in Clonliffe College on those dates. And he has written a covering letter which stops a little short of confirming anything at all really.

http://www.thejournal.ie/vatican-confirms-popes-visit-3315575-Mar2017/

There are no obvious plans at this point to visit anything related to church-run orphanages, mother and child home or anything at all related to the redress scheme. I also imagine that Tuam will not be on his final itinerary either.

Thoughts?

My thoughts are ,,,you are a person who just likes to cause trouble,the man is called Francis,and to the majority. ,yes majority of Irish Catholics (still the majority in Ireland)is respected ,don't be so crude little person.

smacl

corks finest wrote: »

My thoughts are ,,,you are a person who just likes to cause trouble,the man is called Francis,and to the majority. ,yes majority of Irish Catholics (still the majority in Ireland)is respected ,don't be so crude little person.

This is clearly untrue, as can be seen in numerous examples. The Vatican advocated against the same sex marriage bill, the majority of Irish Catholics voted it through. The Vatican prohibits contraception, Irish Catholics widely use contraception. The Vatican considers the morning after pill to be a form of abortion, it is legal in Catholic Ireland and many if not most Catholics recognises it as a valid form of emergency contraception. Add to this that most Irish Catholics no longer attend mass on a regular basis, and there are near enough to zero new priests forthcoming from Irish Catholic ranks and you start to see the picture. Irish Catholics have a morality that is no longer solely or even primarily informed by the Vatican. To suggest a majority could care less about the Pope is entirely unfounded and seems highly unlikely.

There is a common theme in arguments put forward by more zealous Catholics in this forum that because the majority of people in this country identify as Catholic, they share the stance held by the more zealous Catholic. This is demonstrably not the case.

robindch

corks finest wrote: »

My thoughts are ,,,you are a person who just likes to cause trouble [...]

Not really

The pope is, of course, free and generally welcome to visit Ireland just as most dignitaries are.

What would be nice in his special case though is if he would address himself to some of the outstanding issues which his organization has been involved with over the years in this country - see my post above for just a few examples (there are plenty more).

Unfortunately, it seems from the schedules etc which have been published to date, that he's just rocking into town for a religious knees-up and some hoopla and will be studiously avoiding anything controversial. In this, he does unfortunately sit at one with his predecessors.

robindch

Seems Jesus caused the website providing tickets for the pope's visit to crash this morning, but a few quick prayers and it's back up again:

http://www.thejournal.ie/popes-visit-tickets-4090030-Jun2018/

Tickets available here for anybody at a loose end in the second half of August:

https://www.worldmeeting2018.ie/en/Tickets/Closing-Mass-ticket-only

splinter65

robindch wrote: »

Seems Jesus caused the website providing tickets for the pope's visit to crash this morning, but a few quick prayers and it's back up again:

http://www.thejournal.ie/popes-visit-tickets-4090030-Jun2018/

Tickets available here for anybody at a loose end in the second half of August:

https://www.worldmeeting2018.ie/en/Tickets/Closing-Mass-ticket-only

Try not to bother yourself so much about it. So more people then you expected or hoped want to see the Pope. It’s not the end of the world. Your still well on the way to the secular Ireland you’ve always longed for in all your hopes and dreams.

Hotblack Desiato

Secular and irreligious aren't the same thing, no matter how many times the RCC tries to pretend they are.

Members of minority religions often welcome secularism, it means the state can't f**k with them.

It's the majority religions who desire to f**k with the state who oppose secularism.

robindch

splinter65 wrote: »

So more people then you expected or hoped want to see the Pope.

Depends on who's doing the booking - seems there's a lot of fake bookings:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-s-ireland-visit-prompts-protest-booking-campaign-1.3544167
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/say-nope-pope-tickets-ireland-12798742

:eek:

One eyed Jack

robindch wrote: »

Depends on who's doing the booking - seems there's a lot of fake bookings:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/pope-s-ireland-visit-prompts-protest-booking-campaign-1.3544167
https://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/say-nope-pope-tickets-ireland-12798742

:eek:

It probably hasn't registered with him that booking as many tickets as he likes doesn't mean he will actually get them, and others won't.

splinter65

The guy behind the ticket booking jape on Facebook (Say nope to the pope) has had it come back to bite him. He runs an adventure business in the Burren and the bad reviews on Trip Advisor are piling up... plus Leo says they’re petty and mean spirited. Not a good idea.

Odhinn

splinter65 wrote: »

Try not to bother yourself so much about it. So more people then you expected or hoped want to see the Pope. It’s not the end of the world. Your still well on the way to the secular Ireland you’ve always longed for in all your hopes and dreams.

We all are, now that you mention it.

feargale

I don't belong to the Pope's church. I will not be attending the events in the Phoenix Park or Knock or elsewhere. And I can understand why people want to protest.
By all means protest. Hold a counter-gathering if you wish. But this ticket scam is a dishonest attempt to manipulate the numbers. And while I haven't given this aspect of the matter much thought, there may be legal implications of a civil if not of a criminal nature. I see it, on a moral level at any rate, as the equivalent of a party activist at an election tearing down his opponent's election posters or engaging in multiple voting. If this ticket scam is successful it will invalidate the predictions here and elsewhere of a low turnout. I cannot say, but perhaps the very objective of the people involved is to muddy the waters in relation to their turnout predictions.
Am I right in saying that not one A&A person has come in here to disassociate themselves from this? Please correct me if I'm wrong in this. Compare and contrast that with the number of convinced committed Catholics who have condemned the reprehensible behaviour which rightly exercises all of you.
If an IRA bomber stood for election to the Dáil he would be entitled to a fair crack of the whip even if all and sundry deplored him. We can all be fair and just to those who share our views. To be fair to those we disagree with, that is the real test, that is the yardstick that separates the democrats from the fascists.

Hotblack Desiato

splinter65 wrote: »

The guy behind the ticket booking jape on Facebook (Say nope to the pope) has had it come back to bite him. He runs an adventure business in the Burren and the bad reviews on Trip Advisor are piling up... plus Leo says they’re petty and mean spirited. Not a good idea.

Leaving fake reviews is petty and mean spirited.