Mark your diaries! Pope Frank coming to Ireland - August 2018

robindch

Next August, Pope Frank is going to board an aircraft somewhere - I'm assuming he's not coming via Irish Ferries or Stena Line - and take off for a six-day visit to Ireland from the 21st to the 26th of August.

No activities have been positively confirmed yet, but it's understood that he's hoping to attend something called the "World Meeting of Families" taking place in Clonliffe College on those dates. And he has written a covering letter which stops a little short of confirming anything at all really.

http://www.thejournal.ie/vatican-confirms-popes-visit-3315575-Mar2017/

There are no obvious plans at this point to visit anything related to church-run orphanages, mother and child home or anything at all related to the redress scheme. I also imagine that Tuam will not be on his final itinerary either.

Thoughts?

Peregrinus

The conference lasts 6 days; I very much doubt that any papal visit will.

If there's a visit, I'd be very surprised if he doesn't include a function (separate from the conference) at which he addresses the abuse crisis in some way. Not likely to be a visit to a former Magdalene home or similar, but maybe a meeting with survivors.

Cabaal

Must remember to book the time off work to protest,
Very much doubt the Vatican will have apologised for its systematic cover up of abuse by then,

infogiver

robindch wrote: »

Next August, Pope Frank is going to board an aircraft somewhere - I'm assuming he's not coming via Irish Ferries or Stena Line - and take off for a six-day visit to Ireland from the 21st to the 26th of August.

No activities have been positively confirmed yet, but it's understood that he's hoping to attend something called the "World Meeting of Families" taking place in Clonliffe College on those dates. And he has written a covering letter which stops a little short of confirming anything at all really.

http://www.thejournal.ie/vatican-confirms-popes-visit-3315575-Mar2017/

There are no obvious plans at this point to visit anything related to church-run orphanages, mother and child home or anything at all related to the redress scheme. I also imagine that Tuam will not be on his final itinerary either.

Thoughts?

Which church run orphanage do you think he should visit and what would the visit entail?

infogiver

Cabaal wrote: »

Must remember to book the time off work to protest,
Very much doubt the Vatican will have apologised for its systematic cover up of abuse by then,

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26989991
Is this not an apology?

eviltwin

infogiver wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26989991
Is this not an apology?

Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words and all that. If they actually made an effort to properly compensate the people affected and complied with requests for information that 'apology' might ring true.

Hotblack Desiato

A few extraditions of the paedos and paedo enablers holed up in the Vatican would be good too.

Pope Francis visit to Ireland may be ‘shorter than people expect’

He can step off the plane, hand over the cheque and then f off as far as I'm concerned.

Oh and asking for forgiveness isn't an apology. An apology benefits the wronged person, forgiveness is for the benefit of the wrongdoer, so even this was self-serving.

Cabaal

infogiver wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26989991
Is this not an apology?

Its a weak attempt at an apology for the abuse, it is certainly NOT an apology of any kind in relation to the Vatican's systematic cover up of that abuse.
The two things are very very different,

The Vatican to date have NOT apologized for their coverup.

The cover up wasn't an error, or a failure on their part. It was well thought out, it was documented and it had rules and guidelines for people to follow. Trying to claim that the cover up of such horrors was a simple error is like trying to claim the final solution was an error, both were well discussed, documented and had rules and guidelines with a end goal.

infogiver

eviltwin wrote: »

Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words and all that. If they actually made an effort to properly compensate the people affected and complied with requests for information that 'apology' might ring true.

No, the poster didn't realise that the Vatican had apologised so I'm glad to be able to set that record straight.
It wasn't difficult to find that link. That apology was reported everywhere.
What "information" do you think has been witheld by the Vatican and who is it being withheld from?

infogiver

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

A few extraditions of the paedos and paedo enablers holed up in the Vatican would be good too.

Pope Francis visit to Ireland may be ‘shorter than people expect’

He can step off the plane, hand over the cheque and then f off as far as I'm concerned.

Oh and asking for forgiveness isn't an apology. An apology benefits the wronged person, forgiveness is for the benefit of the wrongdoer, so even this was self-serving.

Has a country or countries served extradition orders on the Vatican that have been rejected?

Cabaal

infogiver wrote: »

Has a country or countries served extradition orders on the Vatican that have been rejected?

Not that I'm aware are of off hand. However Ireland, Australia and the UN all requested records as part of major investigations. All were denied.

The Vatican is also shamefully resistant to change, don't take my word for it..... Take the word of an abuse victim who dealt with them first hand https://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0301/856373-marie-collins/

The Vatican is big on words, but lacks any meaningful change or actions

Cabaal

infogiver wrote: »

No, the poster didn't realise that the Vatican had apologised so I'm glad to be able to set that record straight.

Except you haven't and you are very much incorrect.

The Vatican has never apologised for the sex abuse cover up run by them, it's evident you have an issue understanding this.

Bristolscale7

My inclination is to show up to the pope's public appearance cross-dressing as a prostitute-nun.

Hotblack Desiato

infogiver wrote: »

I'm glad to be able to set that record straight.

Unintentional funny is the best kind of funny.

NIMAN

I bet you Belfast is included, as the normalisation continues.

Although I can't see Arlene or Gregory Campbell queuing up to meet him.

Hotblack Desiato

infogiver wrote: »

Has a country or countries served extradition orders on the Vatican that have been rejected?

More deflection.

You can't make extradition requests where no extradition treaty exists.

infogiver

Cabaal wrote: »

Except you haven't and you are very much incorrect.

The Vatican has never apologised for the sex abuse cover up run by them, it's evident you have an issue understanding this.

But it's true that it doesn't matter what type of apology is made and what wording is used you are going to rely on pedantry and semantics to keep beating your drum.
Pope Francis is a very popular figure throughout the world and the leader of over 1 billion Catholics and growing. Almost every official statement he makes is carried by news agencies everywhere and even the possibility that he will visit Ireland next year even for 48 hours made headline breaking news.
As much as you would wish that the Pope would be relegated to the status of say Prime Minister of Luxembourg well that's just not going to happen.

infogiver

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

More deflection.

You can't make extradition requests where no extradition treaty exists.

Then why are you looking for "paedos" to be extradited?

infogiver

NIMAN wrote: »

I bet you Belfast is included, as the normalisation continues.

Although I can't see Arlene or Gregory Campbell queuing up to meet him.

I couldn't see Arlene getting into a pew for a IRA funeral mass but she did.

infogiver

Bristolscale7 wrote: »

My inclination is to show up to the pope's public appearance cross-dressing as a prostitute-nun.

You should do that. It'll be hilarious. Don't forget to bring a placard in Portuguese so that he knows what your supposed to be.

Hotblack Desiato

infogiver wrote: »

Then why are you looking for "paedos" to be extradited?

Because they are using the Vatican's refusal to enter into extradition treaties to shield themselves from justice.

Hotblack Desiato

infogiver wrote: »

You should do that. It'll be hilarious. Don't forget to bring a placard in Portuguese so that he knows what your supposed to be.

He's not from Brazil.

Pherekydes

infogiver wrote: »

You should do that. It'll be hilarious. Don't forget to bring a placard in Portuguese so that he knows what your supposed to be.

Why Portuguese?

I'd be up for the x-dressing, though not sure about the nun bit. Just go as a hooker. Could make a killing... :pac:

infogiver

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

He's not from Brazil.

He speaks Portuguese though

infogiver

Pherekydes wrote: »

Why Portuguese?

I'd be up for the x-dressing, though not sure about the nun bit. Just go as a hooker. Could make a killing... :pac:

€10 a go should do it

Pherekydes

infogiver wrote: »

€10 a go should do it

Heh, I'd say the Vaticanesers (is that what they're called) would expect it for free.

infogiver

Pherekydes wrote: »

Heh, I'd say the Vaticanesers (is that what they're called) would expect it for free.

I'd say they'd get it for free off you, too. Your terribly keen!!

Pherekydes

infogiver wrote: »

I'd say they'd get it for free off you, too. Your terribly keen!!

My terribly keen what?

Wrong anyway. They wouldn't get it off me, as I'm not up for it, and they prefer the defenceless.

infogiver

Pherekydes wrote: »

My terribly keen what?

Wrong anyway. They wouldn't get it off me, as I'm not up for it, and they prefer the defenceless.

A few posts ago you were going to go as a cross dressing hooker and make a killing ....

Cabaal

infogiver wrote: »

But it's true that it doesn't matter what type of apology is made and what wording is used you are going to rely on pedantry and semantics to keep beating your drum.

They've not made an apology, they've not made an admission of guilty for the systematic cover up. If it doesn't matter then why not apologise if it's no big deal and you think it won't matter anyway?

They can't even change the current system to protect children, even abuse victims have confirmed this. They are unwilling to change because they are unwilling to see themselves at fault.

The fact you are here defending the indefensible shows this mindset isn't confined to the Vatican. Utterly depressing.

Cabaal

infogiver wrote: »

You should do that. It'll be hilarious. Don't forget to bring a placard in Portuguese so that he knows what your supposed to be.

Nah, it wouldn't work. They'd have no interest unless the person is a child. Remind me what was the age of consent in the Vatican until 2013......12 years of age wasn't it?

Pherekydes

infogiver wrote: »

A few posts ago you were going to go as a cross dressing hooker and make a killing ....

There's a world of difference between a humorous "...could make a killing..." and the above.

robindch

infogiver wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26989991
Is this not an apology?

I can't see an apology in the text that's quoted there.

Plenty of "it's not the church" prose alright, plus some pious palaver about it only being a small minority of priests. Plus, that he wanted the church to be forgiven.

On behalf of the church, he did not accept responsibility for church leaders moving abusive priests around from parish to parish. He did not accept that the number of priests is vast. Nor did he open church archives to researchers or police. Nor did he accept that requiring grown men to swear off legitimate sex might make some of them engage in illegitimate sex.

His performance was about as convincing as a cream cheese dildo.

eviltwin

infogiver wrote: »

Then why are you looking for "paedos" to be extradited?

Why the inverted commas ?

I really don't see the issue here. Plenty of people around today suffered greatly at the hands of the church, many still are. Lives were ruined and people damaged. If you are lucky enough not to have been one of them or know one of them I can understand the reluctance to keep going back to this subject but it's only because those affected never got justice in the first place.

As a Catholic, which I'm assuming you are, can you honestly tell me why you seem so against a proper, genuine, heartfelt apology and justice for the victims?

Hotblack Desiato

The constant lying, deflection and denial on this issue from so-called christians is something to behold.

Maybe to admit the truth to themselves would bring the whole house of cards of belief falling down, who knows.

infogiver

eviltwin wrote: »

Why the inverted commas ?

I really don't see the issue here. Plenty of people around today suffered greatly at the hands of the church, many still are. Lives were ruined and people damaged. If you are lucky enough not to have been one of them or know one of them I can understand the reluctance to keep going back to this subject but it's only because those affected never got justice in the first place.

As a Catholic, which I'm assuming you are, can you honestly tell me why you seem so against a proper, genuine, heartfelt apology and justice for the victims?

The inverted commas are because I don't like paedophilia to be trivialised by shortening it. It's very tabloidesque if you know what I mean. The other poster used the expression paedos.
If you were honest, there is nothing, no words and no actions that the Vatican can employ to make things right.
The abuse, the cover up, the failure to pay up, it's all abominable.
The vast vast majority of both Catholic clergy and laity all over the world are innocent people going about minding their own business and not bothering anyone.
They've been vilified and attacked with virtually no retort for years now by those who have used the churches scandals as a stick to beat them with, but still Irish people continue to flock to the church for all the major family occasions.
Yes there's an increase in secular weddings and funerals but that's a relief to big extent as the stench of hypocrisy can be intolerable at times.
The most gobsmacking phenomenon of the rise of the liberal left has been the blatant refusal to accept that if we have freedom of expression and freedom of speech then it must extend to everyone and not just people who agree with you.
But all this has been said before.
The RCC will survive, it was atrocious the amount of influence the Irish people allowed it to wield and it's much better for it and Ireland that that's over now.

Hotblack Desiato

infogiver wrote: »

Pope Francis is a very popular figure throughout the world and the leader of over 1 billion Catholics and growing.

Are the Hotel California catholics like myself, who have long checked out but can never leave, counted among that number?

robindch

infogiver wrote: »

If you were honest, there is nothing, no words and no actions that the Vatican can employ to make things right.

Nothing can undo what was done. However, Francis can instruct his bishops to open all archives, without exception, to law enforcement. He could demand that the world's bishops volunteer information to law enforcement. He could perhaps encourage the setting up of a Truth and Reconciliation commission - so that no person can subsequently deny what happened. He could admit fully and finally, that abusive priests were moved around from parish to parish to avoid being caught by police. He could issue a genuine apology, rather than something carefully worded to smell like one. He could permit married priests. He could instruct the previous pope to tell everything he knows. Hell, he could instruct George Pell to go back to Australia and face the music there, rather than avoid it by hiding out in the Vatican or somewhere close by.

He could do lots of things. And his inaction beyond some intentionally misleading words tells all about the church that one really needs to know.

infogiver wrote: »

[...] the stench of hypocrisy can be intolerable at times.

Indeed, it can.

One eyed Jack

I'm not really wishing to get into the wider discussion that appears to be going on here, but I found the phrasing "legitimate sex / illegitimate sex" unusual in relation to trying to associate the practice of celibacy with paedophilia -

robindch wrote: »

Nor did he accept that requiring grown men to swear off legitimate sex might make some of them engage in illegitimate sex.

And I'm even more bewildered as to what I assume you're putting forward as a plausible remedial action -

robindch wrote: »

He could permit married priests.

I don't believe there's any connection between the two, and I don't think permitting priests to marry would have any effect on the number of paedophiles (both male and female) within religious orders who act on their sexual desires. I believe part of the problem was the impression that because they were thought to practice celibacy, the likelihood of them being interested in any sexual activity whatsoever made it harder for their victims to be believed. I don't believe that allowing for priests to marry would have any effect on the number of paedophiles who act on their desires regardless of their marital status or occupation.

Hotblack Desiato

infogiver wrote: »

Yes there's an increase in secular weddings and funerals but that's a relief to big extent as the stench of hypocrisy can be intolerable at times.

How about the hypocrisy of 96% religious run schools in a country where religious practise is dwindling away hand over fist?

Or prioritising children of non believing parents who baptised their children for that sole purpose?

How are you with the stench of that sort of hypocrisy? If you want a more "pure" church then great - withdraw from all state funded schools and hospitals, you can no longer have it both ways.

PopePalpatine

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

How about the hypocrisy of 96% religious run schools in a country where religious practise is dwindling away hand over fist?

Or prioritising children of non believing parents who baptised their children for that sole purpose?

How are you with the stench of that sort of hypocrisy? If you want a more "pure" church then great - withdraw from all state funded schools and hospitals, you can no longer have it both ways.

Ah, but a "pure" Church needs a regular stream of true believers, and what better supply than little children? :rolleyes:

feargale

robindch wrote: »

Next August, Pope Frank is going to take off for a six-day visit to Ireland from the 21st to the 26th of August.

Thoughts?

Dickie Dawkins won't be happy.

Yourself isit

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Ah, but a "pure" Church needs a regular stream of true believers, and what better supply than little children? :rolleyes:

Doesn't seem to be working. But then there are very few religious on those schools.

infogiver

infogiver wrote: »

The abuse, the cover up, the failure to pay up, it's all abominable.

So maybe the pope could do something about one of those things perhaps? Won't fix everything, but it would help a lot of victims.
But I guess the church's finances are more important...

Besides, there's more important things they'd need to spend their money on: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/catholic-church-hired-lobby-firms-block-n-y-kid-rape-laws-article-1.2655010

Junkyard Tom

All RCC property should have been seized by CAB a long time ago.

Hotblack Desiato

feargale wrote: »

Dickie Dawkins won't be happy.

Yeah the millions coming out to see the pope in Ireland will show him, eh!

infogiver

infogiver wrote: »

They've been vilified and attacked with virtually no retort for years now by those who have used the churches scandals as a stick to beat them with, but still Irish people continue to flock to the church for all the major family occasions.

Also, what do you mean no retort? They have weekly uninterrupted venues where they can say whatever they want to the majority of Ireland (if we are to believe their claims). Is this not enough? What then about the countless catholic publications out there? What about the fact they'll always have a place to retort on the media.
Or I dunno, maybe they can get some of their apologists to take to the internet...?

Also, what retort could they be giving that would make them seem any less awful? If apologies aren't going to change anything what could they say that would counter people pointing out the abuse, the continued cover up, the continued attempt to delay and reduce payouts...
Is it vilifying if it's something you admit that is unforgivable?

Fleawuss

A smiling elderly man who still peddles the same tired old nonsense about sin, transubstantiation, virgin birth, original sin etc etc. Hes just a different flavor of idiot to the rest of them.

J C

Fleawuss wrote: »

A smiling elderly man who still peddles the same tired old nonsense about sin, transubstantiation, virgin birth, original sin etc etc. Hes just a different flavor of idiot to the rest of them.

One good thing about this post is that we are now under no illusions what you think of all Christians ... and what everybody else, who doesn't dissociate themselves from it also thinks.

henryporter

Does this mean that sycophantic Enda can't resign as Taoiseach until after the most venerable's visit? Will we ever get rid of him!

endacl