Now Ye're Talking - to a Head of Department in an Institute of Technology

Boards.ie: Niamh

Last week's AMA was very educational and this week we have another educational one of a different sort.

Our guest this week has spent time working in both industry and in academia and now heads up a department at one of the country's Institutes of Technology. He is here to answer questions you might have about college life, academia and anything else third-level related.

Ask away!

Cookie_Monster

what (type/area of academia) department?

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what (type/area of academia) department?

In the computer science/technology area.

Permabear

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GLaDOS

Do you think the standards of 3rd level institutes are dropping in order to facilitate increased numbers of students, as that means more money?

gizmo555

What do you think of the pressure to redesignate Institutes of Technology as universities? Will this actually benefit students or graduates? Or is it just window dressing to add to the prestige of senior management?

(I'm open to correction, but I'm not aware that the previous redesignation of Regional Technical Colleges as Institutes of Technology made the slightest difference to students & graduates.)

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

It varies greatly. In terms of prepared for computer science, those that have an interest in the area and have reasonably good points tend to come better prepared. However, a good proportion are just not up to the level of maths required, which is a significant issue.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Again, I welcome the proposed introduction of computer science as a subject in the Leaving Certificate, that can only be a good thing.

However in terms of preparation, I think a certain percentage of school leavers tend to be full of self-doubt, suffer from anxiety, lacking confidence and unable to make decisions for themselves. That is an area I think we as a society need to work on.

GLaDOS wrote: »

Do you think the standards of 3rd level institutes are dropping in order to facilitate increased numbers of students, as that means more money?

I don't think there is a concerted effort to drop standards to get more bums on seats. All third level institutions are subject to rigorous review by various people/bodies outside of the respective organisations, with paper trails for auditing purposes.

I do, however, think that there is a concerted effort to increase student numbers to make up for the shortfall in funding. That includes non-standard students, such as students from deprived areas, with disabilities, mature students and international students.

endacl

Do you have any thoughts regarding 'college places for all'?

A bit of background. I teach at 'second and a half level' - PLC students. We've noticed in recent years that there's been a huge drop off in PLC applications. What we used to get, in broad strokes, were those who felt they could use a little more prep time before getting stuck into a degree, and those who weren't quite up to the required standard yet. We were broadly successful, with a majority of students achieving a full award and progressing.

In recent years, Institutes of Technology have been offering (and filling) courses with students who are patently not ready/prepared/equipped to complete them, based on a relatively low points requirement. In some areas, drop out rates are massive. As a result, these student lose a year of free fees if they opt to repeat or to change areas. The cynic in me must point out that the Institutes of course receive tuition fees for each of these students.

Are ITs serving students well by filling courses with candidates who won't pass beyond their first year, and who probably should be taking a different route?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/over-70-of-students-drop-out-of-certain-college-courses-1.2929551

mahamageehad

My experience with third level education in Ireland in the IT/Media area is that the courses are pretty far behind what the industry expects. For example, a large emphasis was put on learning Actionscript 3.0 and JavaScript, but very little emphasis was placed on the concepts of object oriented programming or using libraries. From speaking to others I get the impression that I wasn't the only one in that position. Do you feel that your Department is on top of things in that respect or are there other constraints behind the scenes that make updating courses and curriculums difficult?

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

gizmo555 wrote: »

What do you think of the pressure to redesignate Institutes of Technology as universities? Will this actually benefit students or graduates? Or is it just window dressing to add to the prestige of senior management?

There is an element of prestige, that is without question, but not necessarily for senior management. I have been involved with the IDA in bringing employers into Ireland, particularly in the technology area, and one of the first things they ask is whether there is a university present. Cue discussion involving "well, it's an institute of technology, but it's not that much different from a university/so why isn't it a university". There is also an international element to it - outside of the Anglo-Saxon sphere of influence, the term Institute or Technology does not carry much weight (despite my efforts, on more than one occasion, to point to Massachusetts institute of technology. And no, I do not have delusions of grandeur, it's merely to make a point in terms of the naming of the institute. I am not for a moment comparing any IoT in Ireland to MIT).

There are, of course, many, many other factors in the naming, but those two above are key, in my mind.

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

endacl wrote: »

Are ITs serving students well by filling courses with candidates who won't pass beyond their first year, and who probably should be taking a different route?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/education/over-70-of-students-drop-out-of-certain-college-courses-1.2929551

There was an interesting discussion recently at a forum I attended, that basically centered around why don't we leave the Level 6 courses to the PLC sector (for the reasons you articulate above) and focus on Level 7 and above. One of the comments was that the minister for education actually wants the competition for places. I'd love to find a quote/reference for that, because I find it a terrible duplication of resources and a blurring of the lines.

In terms of serving students, there is, across the sector, a wide recognition that there is a percentage of students coming in to 1st year who are simply not ready (see my previous comments above). So student retention and supports are well developed and very targeted at such students. I would not necessarily accept that the IoT's are doing them a disservice, but I would accept that a significant amount of resources are being poured into supporting 1st year students who are not that well prepared.

mahamageehad wrote: »

My experience with third level education in Ireland in the IT/Media area is that the courses are pretty far behind what the industry expects. For example, a large emphasis was put on learning Actionscript 3.0 and JavaScript, but very little emphasis was placed on the concepts of object oriented programming or using libraries. From speaking to others I get the impression that I wasn't the only one in that position. Do you feel that your Department is on top of things in that respect or are there other constraints behind the scenes that make updating courses and curriculums difficult?

To modify a typical programme takes, in my experience, on average two years. It's a continually moving goal post. In my institute's example (don't want to give specifics here), we are on top to a certain extent as we basically went to local employers and said "tell me exactly what you want". Now is it cutting-edge and full of all the latest and greatest technologies? No. Is it what three particular employers want? Yes.

Plus, you have the issue of staff development. A lot of staff, myself included, are out of industry a number of years. So to get them back up to speed on the latest and greatest technologies takes time, effort and money, the latter of which is just simply not there.

I would therefore answer your question by stating that given the resources we have, we do the best we can.

mahamageehad

Some follow up questions if I may.

I was struck during my Erasmus placement in Germany by how focused the students were on industry, and also how focus the faculty were. I don't have direct stats but every professor in the media department I was in was also actively working in the industry. I believe it was a requirement for them. Some more so than others, for example one lecturer that lectured part time in the evenings on top of his regular job as lead developer at a popular game studio here, but all were involved in industry actively. I certainly don't want to degrade the work of people that are passionate about their industry but no longer working in it, but is it a problem in your opinion to have lecturers get too far away from the industry and therefore out of date? When I finished my bachelor a number of us were offered a masters degree complete with teaching hours which I thought was insane. 5 years of industry experience later, i still wouldn't feel ready to take on lecturing, not to mine student me!

You mentioned that your students are prepared with the skills the industry requires, even if it's not the latest and greatest thing. Do you mean the industry specific to your IT location or the broader Irish industry or further?

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

mahamageehad wrote: »

I was struck during my Erasmus placement in Germany by how focused the students were on industry, and also how focus the faculty were. I don't have direct stats but every professor in the media department I was in was also actively working in the industry. I believe it was a requirement for them.

I think Germany in particular has nailed it in terms of post-compulsory education. In particular, they have a very robust apprenticeship system where not only are apprenticeships not looked down on (or at the very least, viewed as "only for manual labour type jobs"), they are well tailored to the needs of industry and have the full support of industry.

mahamageehad wrote: »

Some more so than others, for example one lecturer that lectured part time in the evenings on top of his regular job as lead developer at a popular game studio here, but all were involved in industry actively. I certainly don't want to degrade the work of people that are passionate about their industry but no longer working in it, but is it a problem in your opinion to have lecturers get too far away from the industry and therefore out of date?

Two things: incentives and unions.

What would the incentive be for a lecturer, say in his or her mid-late 40's, in the job 15-20 years, to go back out into industry? Genuine question. There is no incentive, nor imperative. Me personally, I would love to do it (time management issues aside!). But for a person of a certain age, why would they do it?

Secondly, unions. I could start, but I would turn this into a venting/therapy session for me. Going by past experience, unions wouldn't let this happen without significant changes to terms/contracts/payments. I'll leave it at that.

mahamageehad wrote: »

When I finished my bachelor a number of us were offered a masters degree complete with teaching hours which I thought was insane. 5 years of industry experience later, i still wouldn't feel ready to take on lecturing, not to mine student me!

Where we do well is in terms of in-house training and staff training. I am aware of a number of IoTs (and universities, to be fair) that have developed credit-bearing courses on the likes of teaching, learning and assessment. So the assumption is that you are experienced and knowledgeable in your field, you can then be trained up to become a more effective educator.

mahamageehad wrote: »

You mentioned that your students are prepared with the skills the industry requires, even if it's not the latest and greatest thing. Do you mean the industry specific to your IT location or the broader Irish industry or further?

I would say the skills are very transferrable to the broader Irish IT industry. Let's be honest here, object orientated programming is object orientated programming, no matter what language. Same for SQL/Databases and networking, web development etc.

srsly78

Regarding training grads for software development positions: have you started teaching students version control yet? It's beyond a joke at this stage! Academics seem to be absolutely clueless as to what goes in real jobs.

Always trying to hire, all I want are:
Basic ability to use linux
Basic ability to use git
Basic ability to use python

It's not much to ask!

scudzilla

Did you read Lara's Escort AMA? Lot to live up to :pac::pac:

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

srsly78 wrote: »

Regarding training grads for software development positions: have you started teaching students version control yet? It's beyond a joke at this stage!

Yes, they do indeed learn about version control.

EDIT:

srsly78 wrote: »

Always trying to hire, all I want are:
Basic ability to use linux
Basic ability to use git
Basic ability to use python

Check to all of the above. However, using Linux in a computer lab and using Linux in industry are vastly different.

srsly78 wrote: »

Academics seem to be absolutely clueless as to what goes in real jobs.

Well think about it - the majority have left industry years ago, some have completed a PhD in their field, a few don't even have industry experience. However, any course (and on a broader scale, programme) must have industry input or it will not get approved at a local level, nor at a national level (i.e. QQI). So I can say with conviction that all courses/programmes have industry input.

And that's why there is a massive drive to incorporate a work placement/internship in all programmes - to make up for this perceived deficiency.

srsly78

Another problem I have is "industry input" basically seems to mean microsoft tells you what to do. They essentially bribe unis/its with free windows etc - all to make sure students don't learn useful things like linux! Similarly with software like Matlab (free for academic use but costs a fortune outside).

Can you comment on this? Is your course platform/software agnostic? Or are you focused on proprietary stuff?
edit: Cool you kinda answered it above I'm kinda cranky about this topic because I spend all day porting matlab code to python >.<

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

srsly78 wrote: »

Another problem I have is "industry input" basically seems to mean microsoft tells you what to do. They essentially bribe unis/its with free windows etc - all to make sure students don't learn useful things like linux! Similarly with software like Matlab (free for academic use but costs a fortune outside).

Nonsense. Microsoft provide Office 365 and Outlook, that's as far as it goes. Actually, now that I think of it they do provide Azure on which we run, you've guessed it, Linux. But we also have an AWS subscription too.

While I do have contact with Microsoft, I have also had contact with a lot of other big IT companies. Plus, don't forget, most (if not all) IoT's have a local mandate - so that means dealing with IT companies you probably have never heard of within 50 miles of the institution. Add in to that IT departments of non-IT companies and you have a (hopefully) removal of bias.

srsly78

Heh I also use Azure to run linux (the ironing is delicious).

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

srsly78 wrote: »

Heh I also use Azure to run linux (the ironing is delicious).

And conceptually, from a pedagogical perspective, it can be a hard concept to teach (virtualisation, that is).

gomamochi1

Can you tell me the rates for external examiner on a degree program and guest lecture rates. I had been doing this for Dkit until recently and they requested I do them gratis due to budgets. I withdrew my service as I found that it was quite a laissez faire attitude by my colleague as she was setting exam questions on my lectures- I am quite sure she is well reimbursed! Thanks

beauf

I'd be curious why drop out rates aren't widely published, also how many get jobs in their chosen field, rather than jobs only distantly related.

I think there is a serious mismatch between students expectations, the media reporting of the job market and the actual job market.

frozenfrozen

How long do you reckon the current tech bubble will last (if you do believe there is one, and if not - why not?)

I'm alluding to the likes of snapchat having zero means of monetization.. and the huge figures put on tech startups without plans to generate a return, many of which end up getting swallowed by Alphabet and closed down

PTH2009

Does the drink culture that is associated with college life damage the academic life's of some of your students ???

Do you think there we too many FETAC courses and PLC courses around that are given students a false sense of hope ???

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

gomamochi1 wrote: »

Can you tell me the rates for external examiner on a degree program and guest lecture rates. I had been doing this for Dkit until recently and they requested I do them gratis due to budgets. I withdrew my service as I found that it was quite a laissez faire attitude by my colleague as she was setting exam questions on my lectures- I am quite sure she is well reimbursed! Thanks

I honestly don't know what they are for external examiner, the Finance people look after that (not trying to avoid the answer, I genuinely sign the piece of paper and that's as far as it goes in terms of payment from my side).

In terms of guest lecture, can you clarify what you mean? Do you mean a once-off, during a semester? Or do you mean a part-time lecturer teaching scheduled hours?

beauf wrote: »

I'd be curious why drop out rates aren't widely published, also how many get jobs in their chosen field, rather than jobs only distantly related.

I'll put on my ecumenical hat here and say that we are legally obliged to provide these figures to the various regulatory bodies. So the likes of the HEA compile these figures and report them.

beauf wrote: »

I think there is a serious mismatch between students expectations, the media reporting of the job market and the actual job market.

I think that is a fair comment for certain courses. If I show my true colours here, I can genuinely say that is not the case for IT/Computer Science courses as there are more jobs than graduates every year.

frozenfrozen wrote: »

How long do you reckon the current tech bubble will last (if you do believe there is one, and if not - why not?)

I'm alluding to the likes of snapchat having zero means of monetization.. and the huge figures put on tech startups without plans to generate a return, many of which end up getting swallowed by Alphabet and closed down

I think it's like old adage that economists have predicted 15 of the last 3 recessions. So I don't necessarily think there is a tech bubble like the one back in 2001, however, I do think that a combination of the US coming out of recession and the lack of IPOs of "big name" companies going public has resulted in a level of pent up demand. However, if you read the business press (yes, I read the Financial Times), there is considerable debate as to whether all US stocks are overpriced currently.

I do think there are unreasonable expectations made of companies such as Twitter and Snapchat and the like. Are we in a situation where companies are simply building up a userbase and that's what is for sale? As opposed to a decent product service? Yes, I do think there is an element of that. Looking at you, Viber.

I'm a Head of Department in an IT, AMA

PTH2009 wrote: »

Does the drink culture that is associated with college life damage the academic life's of some of your students ???

Oh, most definitely. I could tell you some stories about students coming in for meetings with me at 9:00am and reeking of booze. It is related to my earlier comments about society preparing school leavers for the responsibilities of independent living and learning and being a productive member of society.

Don't get me wrong, I like a drink, I am most certainly not anti-drink. I think it is more to do with a maturity and freedom thing.

PTH2009 wrote: »

Do you think there we too many FETAC courses and PLC courses around that are given students a false sense of hope ???

No. Again, to relate back to my earlier comments. I think such PLCs (just to be pedantic, FETAC is gone now ) offer an alternative pathway to ease that transition out of second level for students who perhaps don't know what they want to do, or would struggle greatly with third level (due to lack of maturity, etc.).

Pelvis

As a current part-time student in an IoT, studying IT. How do you think part timers fare against the full timers both as students and post studies in industry? (taking age into account, i'll be mid thirties when I'm done!) Personally, working full time and dealing with course studies I find I am unable to devote the necessary time required to improve my practical skills.

Where do you think a student going into their final should focus their efforts (with the final year project in mind), what skills are most in demand?

xLisaBx

What do you think about the idea of the grant system being turned into a loan system?

What are your feelings on publishing results from exams, with the students names, so the whole class can see who is doing well and who is struggling?

DoItTomorrow

Do you think DITs campuses are being cash starved due to GrangeGorman?

Are you embarrassed by the pathetic WLAN (the networking labs have zero coverage just for irony)? The HEANET link is totally underused as access is so poor.

Is the repeating plan to merge with the other ITs a good idea or a waste of resources?

Have you any plans to have CA graded during the semester and not after the exams when it defeats the purpose of its own existence?

helimachoptor

Back in my day (early 00's) doing comp sci, Soldier of Fortune was our LAN game, whats the current one?

Have you had any really good ideas come out of your students/postgrads (appreciate you may not want to give identifying info here)

connemara man

Do you see waste in how IoTs are run?