Near misses - mod warning 22/04 - see OP/post 822

Chuchote

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

This kind of different treatment is allowed if the differences are based on proper risk assessment, research and statistics. However, EU law does not permit different treatment in relation to insurance on the gender and race ground

Which is crap, if it's insurance that's being talked about. In that case, there should be no discrimination on age grounds.

mr spuckler

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Going out to Howth last Saturday with the mammy, her driving, it was frightening to see a non-cyclists view on what safe overtaking distance is...that and her complaining about two cyclists going two abreast (and in this case the cyclist on the inside couldn't have been any more than 12!)
She was adamant that she was passing safely. She wasn't.

i remember something similar a few years ago where my dad was driving on a country road and giving out about cyclists being 2 abreast on a blind bend with a solid line in the middle of the road.
i politely (angrily) asked him how exactly he would manage during an overtake if they were 1 abreast while he overtook them on the bend and a truck came against him. he remained belligerent - i think the memory stayed with him as he refused to debate the AGSI proposals from last week with me over the weekend :pac:

Kaisr Sose

Chuchote wrote: »

Which is crap, if it's insurance that's being talked about. In that case, there should be no discrimination on age grounds.

Both males and females are treated equally on age factor

AndrewJRenko

mr spuckler wrote: »

i think the memory stayed with him as he refused to debate the AGSI proposals from last week with me over the weekend :pac:

Quite a few people won't debate anything cyclist with me anytime. Can't imagine why.

Chuchote

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

Both males and female are both treated equally on age factor

Yeah - but sexism is oh-no-you-can't-do-that, while ageism is ok? Makes a nonsense of insurance loading.

RobertFoster

Does actual contact with another vehicle count as a "near miss"?

Inbound in Fairview today, a bus passed me shortly after the Malahide Rd. junction and pulled into the stop opposite Joey's. Traffic was light, the driver gave me loads of room, and it was far enough away for me not to worry about performing an overtake yet. Given the condition of the road at that point, and the cars parked opposite Wrights, I took the lane. This allowed me to overtake another guy on a bike who was hugging the kerb. My attention was taken from the potholes and the stopped bus about to pull out, to a second bus coming up behind me. Initially I thought it was going to overtake me and the stopped bus (there are 3 inbound lanes at that point), but the driver decided to match my speed and pull in towards the kerb.

I immediately started braking at this stage, not willing to contest road space to someone who obviously wants the bus stop. Misjudged overtakes happen, bells are pressed late, whatever, it's not worth fighting/dying over. The driver continued to match my speed however and slowed too, all the while pulling in further. I ended up leaning against the bus (there's a camber in the road) <30cm from the kerb when we came to a complete stop ~3m from the now empty bus stop. Unclipped, I moved off the front corner of the bus to look at the driver. He was doing his best Lord Kitchener impersonation pointing at the track on the path. I shook my head and quietly told him his driving was disgraceful before I made a mental note of the reg and moved on.

Not sure what the general consensus is on this track, but I always prefer the bumpy road rather than the serpentine, often pedestrian-laden, narrow track through Fairview.

I continued inbound, playing leapfrog with my new friend until he turned right onto Talbot Street. Changing lanes to cross the river, I noticed a couple of Gardaí­ at the junction with Custom House Quay. I pulled over and had a chat with the friendly one. He took my details, the details of the incident, and told me he'd phone me in a couple of hours after talking to Traffic Corps. He warned me that they won't like the fact that I wasn't using the track, and he himself had an incident on the N11 which Traffic Corps dismissed because you must use the cycle track when one is provided according to the law. Thinking about the recent reinterpretation of SI 332/2012, I put forward that the law could be misinterpreted, but I was cut off by the unfriendly one ("No it can't.") before I could mention the contentious SI.

Just got the call from the Garda telling me his Traffic Corps colleague claims I'm in the wrong. They're adamant that if they'd witnessed the incident, the cyclist would've been issued with a €40 FCPN for cycling without due care and attention because there's a cycle track on the path. If one is provided, one must be used. What the bus driver did was "cheeky", but not against the law. Since it's not a Garda matter, it won't be pursued (more-or-less read as lest you want a FCPN, young man). The Garda recommended I make a complaint directly with the company.

Well, there you go. **** whatever Leo scribbled down the bottom of the SI, Traffic Corps DGAF. You can drive a bus around issuing justice as you see fit, you cheeky monkey you.

LpPepper

RobertFoster wrote: »

Does actual contact with another vehicle count as a "near miss"?

Inbound in Fairview today, a bus passed me shortly after the Malahide Rd. junction and pulled into the stop opposite Joey's. Traffic was light, the driver gave me loads of room, and it was far enough away for me not to worry about performing an overtake yet. Given the condition of the road at that point, and the cars parked opposite Wrights, I took the lane. This allowed me to overtake another guy on a bike who was hugging the kerb. My attention was taken from the potholes and the stopped bus about to pull out, to a second bus coming up behind me. Initially I thought it was going to overtake me and the stopped bus (there are 3 inbound lanes at that point), but the driver decided to match my speed and pull in towards the kerb.

I immediately started braking at this stage, not willing to contest road space to someone who obviously wants the bus stop. Misjudged overtakes happen, bells are pressed late, whatever, it's not worth fighting/dying over. The driver continued to match my speed however and slowed too, all the while pulling in further. I ended up leaning against the bus (there's a camber in the road) <30cm from the kerb when we came to a complete stop ~3m from the now empty bus stop. Unclipped, I moved off the front corner of the bus to look at the driver. He was doing his best Lord Kitchener impersonation pointing at the track on the path. I shook my head and quietly told him his driving was disgraceful before I made a mental note of the reg and moved on.

Not sure what the general consensus is on this track, but I always prefer the bumpy road rather than the serpentine, often pedestrian-laden, narrow track through Fairview.

I continued inbound, playing leapfrog with my new friend until he turned right onto Talbot Street. Changing lanes to cross the river, I noticed a couple of Gardaí­ at the junction with Custom House Quay. I pulled over and had a chat with the friendly one. He took my details, the details of the incident, and told me he'd phone me in a couple of hours after talking to Traffic Corps. He warned me that they won't like the fact that I wasn't using the track, and he himself had an incident on the N11 which Traffic Corps dismissed because you must use the cycle track when one is provided according to the law. Thinking about the recent reinterpretation of SI 332/2012, I put forward that the law could be misinterpreted, but I was cut off by the unfriendly one ("No it can't.") before I could mention the contentious SI.

Just got the call from the Garda telling me his Traffic Corps colleague claims I'm in the wrong. They're adamant that if they'd witnessed the incident, the cyclist would've been issued with a €40 FCPN for cycling without due care and attention because there's a cycle track on the path. If one is provided, one must be used. What the bus driver did was "cheeky", but not against the law. Since it's not a Garda matter, it won't be pursued (more-or-less read as lest you want a FCPN, young man). The Garda recommended I make a complaint directly with the company.

Well, there you go. **** whatever Leo scribbled down the bottom of the SI, Traffic Corps DGAF. You can drive a bus around issuing justice as you see fit, you cheeky monkey you.

What a load of BS. So a driver in charge of a huge bus can drive dangerously and recklessly but because you're not on the fcuking cycle track it's okay? Wow, that's both frightening and enraging.

magicbastarder

i assume the traffic corps people didn't leave you any contact details?
i'd be inclined to mail the super (if there is one) questioning his subordinate's grasp of the law. not that i'd expect it'd get very far.

magicbastarder

also, might it be the case that the bus lane is *also* a cycle lane. i came across this today cycling down the ongar road - there's an off-road cycle track provided, but the bus lane is also clearly a cycle lane going by the signs (in the street view link below, you can see a cycle track sign, but also a 'beginning of cycle lane/bus lane' sign as the bus lane begins). i bet that must confuse the local gardai.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3885447,-6.4177732,3a,75y,75.71h,83.85t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sGXLoLrUpnvXQddj94u6-ZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

papu

RobertFoster wrote: »

snip

The absolute state of it, what a backwards mess of a society is being promoted by the Government and Traffic Corp in re-interpreting the law in this way.

I wonder if a fine of this type was taken to court would it rule in favor or against the cyclist.

magicbastarder wrote: »

i assume the traffic corps people didn't leave you any contact details?
i'd be inclined to mail the super (if there is one) questioning his subordinate's grasp of the law. not that i'd expect it'd get very far.

Either that or the Garda Ombudsman.

Kaisr Sose

It would seem the accusation of driving without due care and attention would be better put to the bus driver...?

A tool wearing a uniform and in a position of authority is still a tool.

josip

Will it take a court case to clarify the SI ?
I haven't heard of a case going to court yet for failing to cycle on a provided path.
I'D have thought the Traffic Corps would be very reluctant to issue an FCPN on a vague point of law?

Maybe what's needed is a (mass) cycle on a road somewhere there's a substandard cycle lane.
Inform the Traffic Corps of the schedule and invite them in advance to come along and issue FCPNs if they see fit.
Inform various media groups in advance also.

Bushmanpm

Tombo2001 wrote:

(And note, I have zero interest in 'advice' or 'constructive criticism' from drivers - there are a million other threads where I can find this).

Says all I need to know right there!
The only people who don't need advice are those who already know everything.

Danbo!

RobertFoster wrote: »

Does actual contact with another vehicle count as a "near miss"?

Inbound in Fairview today...

Had an incident with a bus a couple of months back, tight overtake and moved back in half way by me, came very close to coming off. Driver said himself "You should be on the cycle track, there's no room for me to pass you". There was no talking to the guy at all, tried to argue if there was no room then why overtake, but it was clear he was 'educating' me.

For reference, it's in terenure where there's a sign pointing into a housing estate saying "cycle track" with no actual cycle track, just takes you off the main road. The road was at the time caked in wet leaves, so I generally used the main road without any hassle.

It shook me for a few days tbh, both how close it was to spilling under either a wheel or into a wall (no footpath) and also the worrying attitude of the driver who was convinced he was both correct (debatable) and justified in passing me.

magicbastarder

is this the lane you were in? looks like it's marked as a combined cycle lane/bus lane at this point:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.364327,-6.2306129,3a,49.6y,228.51h,79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMp5oH5G6yroTuhNSHh-eiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

RobertFoster

magicbastarder wrote: »

i assume the traffic corps people didn't leave you any contact details?
i'd be inclined to mail the super (if there is one) questioning his subordinate's grasp of the law. not that i'd expect it'd get very far.

No contact details for the Traffic Corps, and the Garda phoned from a private number.

magicbastarder wrote: »

is this the lane you were in? looks like it's marked as a combined cycle lane/bus lane at this point:

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.364327,-6.2306129,3a,49.6y,228.51h,79t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMp5oH5G6yroTuhNSHh-eiQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Yes, that's it. There's even a sign at the bus stop https://goo.gl/maps/iEQWVQxk7EM2

magicbastarder

that's bananas. one would hope that one group of people who would support your right to be in a combined bus/cycle lane would be the traffic corps, but they're issuing vague threats about it instead...

ThisRegard

Maybe contact traffic watch yourself directly to see, or steer it, towards a different direction.

I'd wonder why the Garda in question would contact the traffic corp, and he seemed prejudiced as to the outcome from the start. The call, if it happened, may have gone along the lines of hey, this lad claimed he had an incident but I reckon he was wrong. Yeah, go with your instincts, you're probably right.

Chuchote

Contact details for the Traffic Corps

http://garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=110&Lang=1

The Traffic Corps would be worth talking to and inviting to informational seminars on matters like whether safety is better served by making cyclists wear lovely bright colours and plastic hats or by educating drivers to drive safely around cyclists.

ED E

@RobertFoster put in a TrafficWatch report and dont mention talking to those two members. Will go over their head first.

tomasrojo

The Gardaí really have a lot of institutional problems.

WAPAIC

RobertFoster wrote: »

Does actual contact with another vehicle count as a "near miss"?

Report it, I'll pay the fine if you get a FCPN.

Got knocked down by a bus a few months ago doing a similar thing, regret not reporting it to be honest.

If we don't report the near misses, the serious injuries and deaths look like anomalies.

tomasrojo

A Dublin Bus took a sideswipe at me in Fairview years ago, because I was at the edge of the on-road cycle track, even though I actually was still in it. This was before the new cycle track SI, but I've assumed since then that Fairview has a similar problem as on the N11 with bus drivers "teaching lessons", and, as in the case of the N11, I worked out routes to avoid Fairview.

Of course, teaching lessons using the weight and speed of a bus is completely disproportionate, not remotely within the duties or competencies of the driver, and, unless something is very wrong with the statute books, breaking far more serious laws than mandatory-use instruments.

HivemindXX

That bus driver and those guards are a disgrace. If there was any justice they would all lose their jobs.

Using a bus to bully a cyclist off the road is a serious offence. If that driver had misjudged things or the cyclist had hit a pot hole the cyclist could easily have been killed and it would have been manslaughter, although I have no doubt that the driver would lie about what he was doing and the video would be mysteriously out of action and nobody would ever be charged. The same thing happened to me on the N11 some years ago and neither Dublin Bus nor the guards gave a damn.

Moflojo

If I'm understanding the Gardaí's attitude to these matters correctly, I can beat the absolute sh1t out of any vehicles that park in a cycle lane - smash windows, slash tyres, key the paint work - and the Gardaí will then issue FCNs to the drivers of those vehicles because they shouldn't have been parked there in the first place, and I will get off scot-free?

Nice one.

AndrewJRenko

WAPAIC wrote: »

Report it, I'll pay the fine if you get a FCPN.

I'll split it with you.

CramCycle

HivemindXX wrote: »

That bus driver and those guards are a disgrace. If there was any justice they would all lose their jobs.

Using a bus to bully a cyclist off the road is a serious offence. If that driver had misjudged things or the cyclist had hit a pot hole the cyclist could easily have been killed and it would have been manslaughter, although I have no doubt that the driver would lie about what he was doing and the video would be mysteriously out of action and nobody would ever be charged. The same thing happened to me on the N11 some years ago and neither Dublin Bus nor the guards gave a damn.

Same here, I actually looked at the footage of my incident again (had a helmet cam). First of all, when I get the sh1t scared out of me, I sound very British which is unusual but it is so clear. BE lost the footage, AGS who I followed up with a few times, just lost interest. I had it on camera. He admitted it was on purpose. I was calm, I did not shout at him. I gave him my name and details after he claimed there was no way to prove who I was. Never put it on youtube, followed all the rules, nothing happened. Got bored with due process this morning and sent BE and traffic watch his pic via twitter but I expect just to be blocked.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I'll split it with you.

Me three

dermabrasion

TrafficWatch is open to bus drivers too in order to report cyclists for not adhering to the ROTR. Garda should be advocating drivers follow that route to act on alleged offences, as as opposed to condoning summary traffic justice.
ISIS see large vehicles as effective weapons against vulnerable people. AGS should take threatening behaviour more seriously.
But in all of the recent sorrow, the Minister for Transport is silent. He is as much use as a fart in a spacesuit.

magicbastarder

would be interesting, for future reference, to understand how many bus lanes are *not* also cycle lanes.

Chuchote

magicbastarder wrote: »

would be interesting, for future reference, to understand how many bus lanes are *not* also cycle lanes.

None, as I understand it. By definition, isn't a bus lane also a cycle lane?

It's time for cyclists to start using helmetcams as the norm. They're not dear, and they may save lives.