RIP Martin McGuinness

AudreyHepburn

armaghlad wrote: »

What horrific things was he personally involved in? List his convictions there for us, you know, for balance.

You know well what I mean, anyone who knows anything about Irish history knows the kinds of things the IRA were involved in.

Take off those rose tinted spectacles and see McGuinness for what he was - a flawed human being, whose motives are certainly understandable but whose methods were reprehensible.

RustyNut

A brave resistance leader and a brave peace maker, RIP.

AudreyHepburn

opinionated3 wrote: »

They weren't British policemen. ...they were British soldiers.

I stand corrected - it still doesn't justify what was done to them.

lawred2

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

steddyeddy wrote: »

The ANC, Nelson Mandela's terror group did exactly the same Audrey. They even had connections with the IRA.

I know that and equally I can appreciate what Mandela did in later years - he should praised for it as McGuinness should be for his efforts to make peace and, as I see, maybe atone for the wrongs he did.

But again, like Mandela, ANC etc, we cannot and should not pretend that in his early years McGuinness was a member of terrorist organisation who committed some heinous horrible crimes.

Who is asking you to?

The Assistinator

selwyn froggitt wrote: »

If you have so much distain for them, why don't do yourself a favour and **** off back to Ireland then.

Everyones a winner.[/QUOTE
Last time I looked this was boards.ie maybe do yourself a favour and **** off to an English site with that tone.

Thomas__

A man very controversial viewed by many for the reasonings on his past in the IRA and his efforts taken in the peace process of NI. But most of all I will never forget the campaign in which he run for the office of President of the Republic of Ireland, one of the rather view candidates one could take serious.
R.I.P. Mr McGuinness.

Now with McGuinness gone, how Long will Mr Adams be President of SF until he´s handing down leadership to a younger generation, a generation not involved into the Troubles.

FTA69

Deleted User wrote: »

A few posters seem to be hijacking his death to vent anti British sentiment.

Lord Tebbit is not a spokesperson for "the Establishment". And as McGuinness was part of an organisation that tried to blow him up, and put his wife in wheelchair, it's laughable that people expect him to be nice about it.

Tebbit was a senior Tory figure and very much part of what people term the British Establishment. He suffered a lot at the hand of the IRA no doubt, but as others have pointed out so did many others and they're not engaging in the sort of silly gravedancing that a small minority are engaging in. By all means debate McGuinness' actions and legacy but at least do so in an honest manner is all I would say. Anyone coming out with some cartoon cops and robbers type rubbish where McGuinness was some evil psycho and the Brits were some sort of noble crusaders against evil should be called out on it IMO.

AudreyHepburn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who is pretending though?

It was a conflict/war the IRA wasn't even involved in when the most recent one broke out.

If those who cherrypick the actions of one side in the conflict on this island, did the same with, for instance, the actions of the British in winning WW2 and called them reprehensible or even, 'atrocities', they'd be laughed out of here.

The British fought back in WW2 Audrey with some of the most heinous, reprehensible violence known to man and woman kind.
Would you similarly compartmentalise and condemn that?

Of course I would. Look I know you're just going out of your way to make it seem like I don't what I'm talking about and I'm not going to take that bait.

McGuinness was not the heroic freedom fighter people are trying to make him out be.

Yes he did a lot of work for peace in his later life and achieved great things - but this shouldn't blind us to the fact that he was once part of one of the violent organisations on the island, an organisation who were only to happy to maim and kill innocent people in pursuit of their aims.

The Assistinator

RIP to a man who done more for the Irish people than Bertie Enda or the rest of that crowd in Dublin.
A man that helped more than most to give peace in the north and get equal rights to Irish people living there

AudreyHepburn

lawred2 wrote: »

Who is asking you to?

The tone of a lot reactions here and in the media suggest to me that a lot of people feel we should gloss over his past and be concerned only with the peace process etc.

Autonomous Cowherd

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I know that and equally I can appreciate what Mandela did in later years - he should praised for it as McGuinness should be for his efforts to make peace and, as I see, maybe atone for the wrongs he did.

But again, like Mandela, ANC etc, we cannot and should not pretend that in his early years McGuinness was a member of terrorist organisation who committed some heinous horrible crimes.

And how should we phrase that, Audrey? A big, bold comma in the middle of the ''on the one hand, but on the other hand'' sentence? Just wondering what would satisfy you, as most of the commentators I have seen in this post have openly acknowledged the dichotomy and contradictions of the man's history. In spite of that history, there are a lot of people alive today in Northern Ireland that might not be if he had not worked very hard to make the Peace Process a reality. Would be tough to be a Heavenly judge in such a case...

Noddyholder

FTA69 wrote: »

Tebbit was a senior Tory figure and very much part of what people term the British Establishment. He suffered a lot at the hand of the IRA no doubt, but as others have pointed out so did many others and they're not engaging in the sort of silly gravedancing that a small minority are engaging in. By all means debate McGuinness' actions and legacy but at least do so in an honest manner is all I would say. Anyone coming out with some cartoon cops and robbers type rubbish where McGuinness was some evil psycho and the Brits were some sort of noble crusaders against evil should be called out on it IMO.[/QUOTE]

Right on there boy.

AudreyHepburn

FTA69 wrote: »

Tebbit was a senior Tory figure and very much part of what people term the British Establishment. He suffered a lot at the hand of the IRA no doubt, but as others have pointed out so did many others and they're not engaging in the sort of silly gravedancing that a small minority are engaging in. By all means debate McGuinness' actions and legacy but at least do so in an honest manner is all I would say. Anyone coming out with some cartoon cops and robbers type rubbish where McGuinness was some evil psycho and the Brits were some sort of noble crusaders against evil should be called out on it IMO.

I think you'll find on this thread that people are saying the opposite - that McGuinness is a heroic freedom fighter and the British army are evil murders.

Which is also completely incorrect of course.

smelly sock

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

None of that in any way justifies planting bombs under innocent people, dragging British policemen out a car and beating them to death in front the media just because they drove the wrong through a funeral, kidnapping innocent young men, and one mother of ten, killing and burying them in unknown graves not be found for decades or the many other horrific things the IRA did and still do.



There's no point pretending atrocities didn't take place on BOTH sides of the Troubles, it does no-one any favors.

War itself is an atrocity.

FrancieBrady

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Of course I would. Look I know you're just going out of your way to make it seem like I don't what I'm talking about and I'm not going to take that bait.

McGuinness was not the heroic freedom fighter people are trying to make him out be.

Yes he did a lot of work for peace in his later life and achieved great things - but this shouldn't blind us to the fact that he was once part of one of the violent organisations on the island, an organisation who were only to happy to maim and kill innocent people in pursuit of their aims.

The violent organisation he fought against is STILL engaged in violent pursuit of it's aims around the world.

If you don't wish to be challenged, please stop with the cherrypicking and patronising nonsense.
McGuinness never turned his back on his past, therefore his life should be viewed as a whole.
He did what most soldiers/generals did, he fought for what he believed in, and when he and others achieved what they could live peacefully with they put away the guns and built a peace based on the equality and parity of esteem they achieved.

AudreyHepburn

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

And how should we phrase that, Audrey? A big, bold comma in the middle of the ''on the one hand, but on the other hand'' sentence? Just wondering what would satisfy you, as most of the commentators I have seen in this post have openly acknowledged the dichotomy and contradictions of the man's history. In spite of that history, there are a lot of people alive today in Northern Ireland that might not be if he had not worked very hard to make the Peace Process a reality. Would be tough to be a Heavenly judge in such a case...

Snooty tone of your question aside, all I would like is an acknowledgement that there were two sides to the man, the terrorist in his youth, the peacemaker later on.

I just think people are trying to ignore the early McGuinness, maybe because they find it too hard to look back on those difficult times.

ThisRegard

armaghlad wrote: »

What horrific things was he personally involved in? List his convictions there for us, you know, for balance.

He's the only self admitted former member of the IRA, at a pretty high level, who never got involved in violence?

AudreyHepburn

smelly sock wrote: »

War itself is an atrocity.

Absolutely.

Thomas__

Feisar wrote: »

Rest In Peace.

Rightly or wrongly my first thoughts when I heard the news on the radio this morning was that a freedom fighter had died. Easy for me to have romantic notions having grown up in the Republic though.

Ones freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. He certainly was both, in some ways, depending on the angle one takes when looking at his political life. His legacy will certainly be as divisive like his life was on political grounds, but what cannot be taken from him is the long period in which he took up many efforts and also some set backs to bring about peace and reconciliation in NI. The die-hards will never forgive and forget, the reasonable will certainly also never forget, but they will at least acknowledge what he, in cooperation with others, achieved and that is, aparat from the crimes of the dissos, peace in NI for almost 20 years and after 30 years of Trouble, that is certainly something and not less.

murpho999

The Assistinator wrote: »

RIP to a man who done more for the Irish people than Bertie Enda or the rest of that crowd in Dublin.
A man that helped more than most to give peace in the north and get equal rights to Irish people living there

Nothing against Martin McGuinness but this is populist rubbish.

What did he do for the Republic of Ireland? (Not a criticism).

Bertie, as much as I dislike him, was vital to the peace process and deserves credit for it as much as MMG.

Enda Kenny, you're probably just judging him on Irish Water.

suicide_circus

Bessed are the peacemakers

Junkyard Tom

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

I think you'll find on this thread that people are saying the opposite - that McGuinness is a heroic freedom fighter and the British army are evil murders.

Which is also completely incorrect of course.

I'm confident many residents of the Bogside would disagree with your 'completely incorrect' statement.

AudreyHepburn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The violent organisation he fought against is STILL engaged in violent pursuit of it's aims around the world.

If you don't wish to be challenged, please stop with the cherrypicking and patronising nonsense.
McGuinness never turned his back on his past, therefore his life should be viewed as a whole.
He did what most soldiers/generals did, he fought for what he believed in, and when he and others achieved what they could live peacefully with they put away the guns and built a peace based on the equality and parity of esteem they achieved.

You see this is where you and I differ and this is where I have a problem with some of the reaction to his death. I don't call him a soldier or general because that suggests the things he and his organisation did were somehow justifiable and to me they just aren't.

But again I respect, acknowledge, commend his work during the peace process and all that that achieved.

I have no issue with being challenged. I do have an issue with people trying to make McGuiness and his ilk out to be something they were not.

FrancieBrady

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

Snooty tone of your question aside, all I would like is an acknowledgement that there were two sides to the man, the terrorist in his youth, the peacemaker later on.

I just think people are trying to ignore the early McGuinness, maybe because they find it too hard to look back on those difficult times.

No there wasn't 'two sides' to him.

You want there to be though because that is a lazy way out. It was that 'laziness' and ignoring of what was actually going on in the north that allowed it to explode.

ThisRegard

The Assistinator wrote: »

RIP to a man who done more for the Irish people than Bertie...........
A man that helped more than most to give peace in the north and get equal rights to Irish people living there

That's revisionism right there, especially when it comes to what and who you're claiming brought about the peace protest.

I guess there's a big difference in how people see the man across the ages, younger people I would guess see him as a hero of sorts.

AudreyHepburn

FrancieBrady wrote: »

No there wasn't 'two sides' to him.

You want there to be though because that is a lazy way out. It was that 'laziness' and ignoring of what was actually going on in the north that allowed it to explode.

So he wasn't both a terrorist in his youth and a peacemaker in his later years?

Noddyholder

I await Maryishere for her destructive contribution :-)

buried

Very sad news to wake up to, especially at a time of such uncertainty, not only in Ireland but in the current global political environment. His experience and knowledge will be greatly missed.

R.I.P. Martin McGuinness

Thomas__

The Assistinator wrote: »

RIP to a man who done more for the Irish people than Bertie Enda or the rest of that crowd in Dublin.
A man that helped more than most to give peace in the north and get equal rights to Irish people living there

What more could they have done than what they have done, eh? NI and the Troubles was a domestic matter for the Brits in the first place, not that of the Republic of Ireland, unless Ireland had taken on the UK and that way had certainly not led to what is now in NI.

Always sneering at former leading politicians from the Republic and dismissing that it was Mr Ahern who was Taoiseach when the GFA was worked out and signed. That sneering doesn´t make any sense to me, it is just the usual claptrap from the usual die-hard Shinners who always know better but never did anything better than those who were at the place when history was made. Surely, the signing of the GFA was a moment of history for the whole of the Island of Ireland.

FrancieBrady

murpho999 wrote: »

Nothing against Martin McGuinness but this is populist rubbish.

What did he do for the Republic of Ireland? (Not a criticism).

Bertie, as much as I dislike him, was vital to the peace process and deserves credit for it as much as MMG.

Enda Kenny, you're probably just judging him on Irish Water.

He did what the republic SHOULD have been doing and was constitutionally mandated to do - protect Irish people.
The IRA did not want to get involved in 69 but were forced to by continued state backed oppression and aggression.