€300M Investment into Waterford City

Harry Palmr

coastwatch wrote: »

So opening the already built Ferrybank Shopping Centre isn't commercially viable, but a new shopping development, 500 meters away on the NQ will thrive?

Ferrybank would be like City Square, the North Quays are intended to be more like a Mahon Point+

Chalk and cheese.

azimuth17

invara wrote: »

Not 100% sure of this but my understanding was that Ferrybank has planning permission as a district shopping centre (meaning no clothes or other comparison shopping) , but the developer tried to let it as a regional shopping centre. This if memory serves me right goes back to a planning permission battle between Kilkenny CoCo and Waterford Co. The two councils slugged this out and Waterford got its way..

Original agreement between Waterford city, Waterford county and Kilkenny county was for no clothes or comparison shopping outside Waterford city centre except for small amount at Lisduggan and Ardkeen. Kilkenny Co Co were beaten twice or three times at Bord Pleanala when they tried to say that Ferrybank outside Waterford boundary was a separate town or settlement. The Bord confirmed that Ferrybank is a suburb of Waterford city albeit with population in Co Kilkenny. I think the CSO does something similar? Kilkenny tried to invent a category of retail called Gateway suburb and declared Ferrybank a stand alone town with need for a town centre development despite agreement with Waterford city for only a district level shopping centre. The final planning permission was not tested by An Bord Pleanala because of withdrawn appeals so the present centre went ahead. The legal action against a similar development granted by Waterford County Council on the edge of Waterford city (Butlerstown Retail Park) resulted in TKMAxx having to close as the retail primacy of Waterford city centre and the planning surrounding that was upheld. I understand that Ferrybank cannot open for any retail except at district level (because of the legal precedent and the Retail Planning Guidelines) i e Supervalu on Tramore Road level.

Harry Palmr

Interesting post, no clothing retail outside the "city" and yet Tesco Extra and Next are located on the ring road at Ardkeen. Feels as if the criteria is not consistent.

Azatadine

I pass by the Ferrybank building every day and I think it's a terrible waste that it's not used.

Road-Hog

North quays will be an even bigger example of an unused / unattractive development......even if it is built with all its fancy shops etc what will attract people to it. Everyone these days does their shopping on line......even grocery shopping......20 years time everyone will be able to site on their couch and get Everything dropped To their door step Via a drone and will be 100% working from home so no need for cars or public transport and all children will be home educated using video links etc.......?

Wanderer78

Road-Hog wrote: »

North quays will be an even bigger example of an unused / unattractive development......even if it is built with all its fancy shops etc what will attract people to it. Everyone these days does their shopping on line......even grocery shopping......20 years time everyone will be able to site on their couch and get Everything dropped To their door step Via a drone and will be 100% working from home so no need for cars or public transport and all children will be home educated using video links etc.......?

lotto numbers please?

Muttley79

Road-Hog wrote: »

North quays will be an even bigger example of an unused / unattractive development......even if it is built with all its fancy shops etc what will attract people to it. Everyone these days does their shopping on line......even grocery shopping......20 years time everyone will be able to site on their couch and get Everything dropped To their door step Via a drone and will be 100% working from home so no need for cars or public transport and all children will be home educated using video links etc.......?

Have you made a time machine from a delorean!
If that's the case every city in the world may shut up shop

Harry Palmr

Head to the likes of Kildare Village, Dundrum, Mahon Point and make that case!

gman2k

The business case for a cinema is debatable. There already 2 multiscreen cinemas in Waterford, that don't appear to do great business.
An additional one on the NQ is only going to cannibalize existing custom, leading to at least the closure of the Patrick's Street one.

wakka12

Road-Hog wrote: »

North quays will be an even bigger example of an unused / unattractive development......even if it is built with all its fancy shops etc what will attract people to it. Everyone these days does their shopping on line......even grocery shopping......20 years time everyone will be able to site on their couch and get Everything dropped To their door step Via a drone and will be 100% working from home so no need for cars or public transport and all children will be home educated using video links etc.......?

I think youre being a bit dramatic. Just think about the rents retail outlets pay on some of the busier shopping streets in Dublin for instance, or in dundrum shopping centre, retail will stick around but the way it works will change, online market is taking business but many brands will still want a physical presence in cities for publicity so shopping will become more of an experiential thing than functional task

Look at apple, theres no reason at all why they need a shop, Im sure they make close to no money through their retail outlets as everyone buys their products online, but the apple shop is a complete publicity thing and people like visiting the shops for the interesting architeture, talking to the tech heads,testing new products in real life, its the experience, ikea has restaurants, most bookshops now convert a bit of the shop into a coffee shop, etc, retail is adapting in other ways to remain competitive with online. Regardless of that some people just prefer physical shopping, I like picking up products there and then and knowing exactly what Im getting. Many things I order online are deceptively marketed and appear very different in person. Also shipping charges suck and products can take ages to arrive. Honestly the only time Id use online is if theres a specific thing I wanted and I couldnt think of any shops nearby that might stock it. So youre making very big assumptions about the lifestyles of many other people who have different habits and preferences to your own.

And children being educated at home is completely off the wall. A HUGE part of your education is mixing with peers and learning from them and interacting. Many businesses and jobs also rely on real life interaction and cooperation between workers

Wanderer78

gman2k wrote:

The business case for a cinema is debatable. There already 2 multiscreen cinemas in Waterford, that don't appear to do great business. An additional one on the NQ is only going to cannibalize existing custom, leading to at least the closure of the Patrick's Street one.

An element of such a project is ultimately about monopolisation of pre-existing businesses, this is seen by some as being a positive thing

Gavlor

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Head to the likes of Kildare Village, Dundrum, Mahon Point and make that case!

Whitewater newbridge would be a prime example. The high st in the town is thriving since the complex opened on its doorstep.

looksee

Mahon Point is the only one of the three mentioned that I have been to and I don't see the appeal. One shopping centre is much like another, all the same shops, the same very boring layout. Ok if your only interest is in buying clothes, but beyond that - no thanks. What will the NQ offer that is any different?

Harry Palmr

Are you a woman? Apparently they just love clothes and shoes. I just use them to cover my flesh from the cold and sharp bits.

Destination shopping isn't aimed at men, look at how many "gal pals" make a day out at these places and how the men look bored, dutiful, at their phones.

JohnC.

I know enough Waterford women who go on shopping trips to Kilkenny for the shops they have there which aren't in Waterford. Even if they evened the shopping selection with Kilkenny, it would be something.

azimuth17

JohnC. wrote: »

I know enough Waterford women who go on shopping trips to Kilkenny for the shops they have there which aren't in Waterford. Even if they evened the shopping selection with Kilkenny, it would be something.

And I see hundreds of KK cars parked in town every day of the week and in places like Ardkeen shopping in the places they don't have in Kilkenny. The fact that people from either place go fora day out to the other is hardly earth shattering. The real leakage as stated by council is to Kildare Village, Mahon Point and Dundrum in pursuit of higher order retail. Trouble is that people in Waterford seem to want to believe that the grass is greener everywhere else. Everyone in Waterford knows and acknowledges the deficits and council, chamber and retail groups are trying to remedy things.

JohnC.

azimuth17 wrote: »

And I see hundreds of KK cars parked in town every day of the week and in places like Ardkeen shopping in the places they don't have in Kilkenny.

Yeah, local people, by which I mean from the Waterford catchment area rather than travelling for the day from north Kilkenny or whatever. Having worked in retail, that kind of thing tended to happen mainly in the summer holidays.

BBM77

JohnC. wrote: »

I know enough Waterford women who go on shopping trips to Kilkenny for the shops they have there which aren't in Waterford. Even if they evened the shopping selection with Kilkenny, it would be something.

I am in Kilkenny all the time for work. You could count on one hand the shops they have there which aren't in Waterford. They have a good selection of sole traders alright but little in the way of big name draws over Waterford.

azimuth17 wrote: »

And I see hundreds of KK cars parked in town every day of the week and in places like Ardkeen shopping in the places they don't have in Kilkenny. The fact that people from either place go fora day out to the other is hardly earth shattering. The real leakage as stated by council is to Kildare Village, Mahon Point and Dundrum in pursuit of higher order retail. Trouble is that people in Waterford seem to want to believe that the grass is greener everywhere else. Everyone in Waterford knows and acknowledges the deficits and council, chamber and retail groups are trying to remedy things.

Could not agree more on the grass is greener everywhere else. A lot of Waterford people don't even want to see what is in the city. They would rather complain there is nothing here and drive to Dundrum. Complain you'd have to spend 5 or 6 euro on parking in Waterford and then spend 40 or 50 euro on petrol driving to Dundrum or if going to Dublin city centre another 20 or 30 euro on parking on top of the petrol. It is a painful attitude.

vriesmays

You can get the bus up to Dublin and Luas to Dundrum.

Harry Palmr

Edging forward

https://twitter.com/Falcon__RED/status/1189851475532558336

Road-Hog

Harry Palmr wrote: »

Edging forward

https://twitter.com/Falcon__RED/status/1189851475532558336

Can this be viewed as positive or more false dawns.....it’s becomi g a bit like brexit at this stage dates for milestones being pushed further and further into the future......don’t think anyone locally will believe this project is going to happen until at least a dozen tower cranes 🏗 and other construction activity are present on the site...!

Deiseen

Road-Hog wrote: »

Can this be viewed as positive or more false dawns.....it’s becomi g a bit like brexit at this stage dates for milestones being pushed further and further into the future......don’t think anyone locally will believe this project is going to happen until at least a dozen tower cranes 🗠and other construction activity are present on the site...!

I had a lot or positivity for this project when first announced but with all the delays and the government heel dragging, I have been slowly losing faith in the developers to be able to deliver this project.

Hope I'm wrong, I want this development to succeed as much as anyone, but I'm struggling to understand what the delay was for other than them not having their act together.

vriesmays

Waterford will get a university before the North Quays development.

curmudgeonly

Road-Hog wrote: »

Can this be viewed as positive or more false dawns.....it’s becomi g a bit like brexit at this stage dates for milestones being pushed further and further into the future......don’t think anyone locally will believe this project is going to happen until at least a dozen tower cranes 🏗 and other construction activity are present on the site...!

There is a lot of nervousness by the developers for all the obvious reasons,Brexit,impending financial downturn ,slowing of the Euro, and particularly getting the development mix right.
They could cut and run at any stage and in fairness the Government have not been exactly supportive with their salami slices of funding.

Taking all that into account I still think they will go ahead, a recession imo is the best time to build something like this.

Road-Hog

curmudgeonly wrote: »

There is a lot of nervousness by the developers for all the obvious reasons,Brexit,impending financial downturn ,slowing of the Euro, and particularly getting the development mix right.
They could cut and run at any stage and in fairness the Government have not been exactly supportive with their salami slices of funding.

Taking all that into account I still think they will go ahead, a recession imo is the best time to build something like this.

Recession is usually the time when developers Soil their underpants and run for for the hills.....in the 2009 to 2015

debok

curmudgeonly wrote: »

There is a lot of nervousness by the developers for all the obvious reasons,Brexit,impending financial downturn ,slowing of the Euro, and particularly getting the development mix right.
They could cut and run at any stage and in fairness the Government have not been exactly supportive with their salami slices of funding.

Taking all that into account I still think they will go ahead, a recession imo is the best time to build something like this.

In Fairness to the developers the government don't seem to be encouraging them too much. It just looks like a stand off to see who puts the hand in there pocket first.

curmudgeonly

Road-Hog wrote: »

Recession is usually the time when developers Soil their underpants and run for for the hills.....in the 2009 to 2015

One thing you got to remember about these particular developers is they're all cashed up and looking for post oil income,different story to the developers you speak of.

BBM77

Road-Hog wrote: »

Can this be viewed as positive or more false dawns.....it’s becomi g a bit like brexit at this stage dates for milestones being pushed further and further into the future......don’t think anyone locally will believe this project is going to happen until at least a dozen tower cranes �� and other construction activity are present on the site...!

Well that is more to do with a persons way of thinking than anything else. The reality is nothing has happened to suggest that the developer is not going to go ahead, delays are a normal part of projects like this. All the talk of “this is never going to happen" is just speculation.

robcass78

BBM77 wrote: »

Well that is more to do with a persons way of thinking than anything else. The reality is nothing has happened to suggest that the developer is not going to go ahead, delays are a normal part of projects like this. All the talk of “this is never going to happen" is just speculation.

Well said.

I'll just leave these two things for people to look at.

1. What is happening in the Quays in Toronto (by SideWalk Labs/Google; and the guy behind the idea is from Waterford, but there you go).

https://quaysideto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/MIDP-Volume-1-The-Plans-Introduction-and-Chapter-1-Quayside-Accessible.pdf

Note the importance of transport.

The economic impact.

https://quaysideto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/MIDP-Volume-1-Chapter-3-Economic-Development-Accessible.pdf

Road-Hog

robcass78 wrote: »

Well said.

I'll just leave these two things for people to look at.

1. What is happening in the Quays in Toronto (by SideWalk Labs/Google; and the guy behind the idea is from Waterford, but there you go).

https://quaysideto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/MIDP-Volume-1-The-Plans-Introduction-and-Chapter-1-Quayside-Accessible.pdf

Note the importance of transport.

The economic impact.

https://quaysideto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/MIDP-Volume-1-Chapter-3-Economic-Development-Accessible.pdf

Can you really compare a Toronto development with something proposed for a small Irish city about 1/60 th the population...?