The importance of the N11 and N25 post-Brexit

jd

jd wrote: »

Yes, the New Ross Road Roundabout can be quite busy. It would only take a relatively small increase in traffic at peak times for tailbacks at the junction to become quite common. I wonder how much it would cost to do Oylegate-N25 junction, it would involve a new bridge and a GSJ at that roundabout .

Just one other point (I know off topic too an extent) but Rosslare Harbour may become more important again post-Brexit

Cantona's Collars

Deedsie wrote: »

100% agree, this road could become an absolutely vital piece of infrastructure.

Paul Kehoe was pushing this before and was basically ignored in favour of more Dublin centric projects. With traffic around Dublin you'd be halfway across the country driving from Rosslare by the time you get a few miles along the M50.
Back on topic,I think the hold up on the N30 section has been sorted.

kneemos

jd wrote: »

Just one other point (I know off topic too an extent) but Rosslare Harbour may become more important again post-Brexit

How so?

jd

kneemos wrote: »

How so?

It's possible that hauliers from the continent may find it last hassle to go from France to Ireland directly, rather than crossing the" landbridge"

LeinsterDub

zerks wrote: »

Paul Kehoe was pushing this before and was basically ignored in favour of more Dublin centric projects. With traffic around Dublin you'd be halfway across the country driving from Rosslare by the time you get a few miles along the M50.
Back on topic,I think the hold up on the N30 section has been sorted.

What Dublin centric projects?

Cantona's Collars

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What Dublin centric projects?

No funding was forthcoming as Dublin Port was seen to be more important. Come to think of it,I don't recall Dublin Port getting anything either. Irish promises by Irish political parties disappear once again.

LeinsterDub

zerks wrote: »

No funding was forthcoming as Dublin Port was seen to be more important. Come to think of it,I don't recall Dublin Port getting anything either. Irish promises by Irish political parties disappear once again.

So that would be no Dublin centric projects . Glad we cleared that up

Cantona's Collars

LeinsterDub wrote: »

So that would be no Dublin centric projects . Glad we cleared that up

My point was it was the usual political bollixology. "Hey let's turn Rosslare Europort into a proper Europort"..." No Paul,we need the money for Dublin Port and erm important stuff in the capital".Then as usual nothing happens in Rosslare or Dublin.

Perhaps now we will soon have a motorway between the 2 counties and Brexit looming then the port in Rosslare takes on more importance.

marno21

Please continue the discussion from the M11 Enniscorthy thread here.

vicwatson

Wonder will they request funding from the EU to push on and complete the E1 from North of Oilgate to Rosslare?

marno21

vicwatson wrote: »

Wonder will they request funding from the EU to push on and complete the E1 from North of Oilgate to Rosslare?

They already can avail of funding from the EU to upgrade the roads to two other ports (Cork & Foynes) yet seem to be in no rush to do so.

Maybe if/when they need to lick Howlin's arse they might look at the N11/N25 scheme again.

munchkin_utd

the "landbridge" might not be such a massive issue if a practical solution is agreed on, like say trailers are sealed with an EU customs seal departing France which has to be in tact on arrival in Dublin.
BTW, this idea is not new, and in FAR FAR more hostile terroritory and times, trains and trucks from West Germany were allowed to pass through East Germany in transit to West Berlin.
If the UK becomes the new East Germany, then so be it.

jd

Article in Guardian yesterday.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/20/post-brexit-customs-gridlock-could-choke-uk-trade-experts-warn

The introduction of customs checks at Dover after Britain leaves the EU could bring gridlock to the south-east of England, with lorries queueing for up to 30 miles in Kent to get across the channel, senior figures in the transport industry have warned.

Short of cutting into the famous Cliffs of Dover, the busy cargo port has no room to expand to accommodate paperwork checks for the 2.6m trucks that pass through the port every year.

Sam Russell

jd wrote: »

Article in Guardian yesterday.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/20/post-brexit-customs-gridlock-could-choke-uk-trade-experts-warn

From the article, 2.6 million trucks per year - that is 300 per hour. That is not going to work, no matter what they do.

jd

Came across this on lcal Wexford radio
http://www.southeastradio.ie/2017/02/environmental-group-want-more-development-at-rosslare-europort/

The Protect Dublin Bay Group want Rosslare Europort to be further developed instead particularly in the context of Brexit where they say the country already has a direct route to the continent.
..
The Environmental group say Rosslare is in prime position to benefit from increased continental traffic post Brexit.

Cantona's Collars

jd wrote: »

Came across this on lcal Wexford radio
http://www.southeastradio.ie/2017/02/environmental-group-want-more-development-at-rosslare-europort/

Plans are currently up for public consultation after Dublin Port lodged a planning application for a two hundred euro development.

Dublin Port won't get much from a €200 development.:p

Seriously,it makes more sense to develop Rosslare,traffic congestion alone in the capital and it's surrounds is reason enough.Direct ferries to and from France and the possibility of more continental routes to be explored to and from Rosslare make more sense.A truck could be off the ferry in Rosslare and miles along the road by the time a boat from France even docks in Dublin.

SeanW

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the "landbridge" might not be such a massive issue if a practical solution is agreed on, like say trailers are sealed with an EU customs seal departing France which has to be in tact on arrival in Dublin.

Not going to happen, as the French part of that "landbridge" has been permitted to degenerate into a lawless hellhole. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/771837/Calais-migrant-crisis-refugee-asylum-seeker-lorry-France-Britain-police-fight

How are they going to reliably seal trailers for transit to Ireland in Calais?

Logic dictates that there should be a Free Trade Agreement between the UK and the EU. If not, there will have to be a hard border with the North and, yes, transit of goods between Ireland the rest of the EU will need to be direct.

piuswal

SeanW wrote: »

Not going to happen, as the French part of that "landbridge" has been permitted to degenerate into a lawless hellhole. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/771837/Calais-migrant-crisis-refugee-asylum-seeker-lorry-France-Britain-police-fight

How are they going to reliably seal trailers for transit to Ireland in Calais?

Logic dictates that there should be a Free Trade Agreement between the UK and the EU. If not, there will have to be a hard border with the North and, yes, transit of goods between Ireland the rest of the EU will need to be direct.

Have refuges got into the actual port area, not just the approach road which is becomingly increasingly controlled

Geogregor

SeanW wrote: »

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the "landbridge" might not be such a massive issue if a practical solution is agreed on, like say trailers are sealed with an EU customs seal departing France which has to be in tact on arrival in Dublin.

Not going to happen, as the French part of that "landbridge" has been permitted to degenerate into a lawless hellhole. http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/771837/Calais-migrant-crisis-refugee-asylum-seeker-lorry-France-Britain-police-fight

How are they going to reliably seal trailers for transit to Ireland in Calais?

Logic dictates that there should be a Free Trade Agreement between the UK and the EU. If not, there will have to be a hard border with the North and, yes, transit of goods between Ireland the rest of the EU will need to be direct.

Seriously? Quoting the Express???
Migrants in Calais will be the least of the Brexit problems. If they want to introduce proper customs bureaucracy between Britain and the continent it will cause such delays that migrants will be better off swimming to the UK rather that trying to get on the lorries which will be stuck in a permanent gridlock. As it was mentioned before nobody in the UK has plans what to do practically after the Brexit. They have 2 years to devise some serious plans and implement them. That means budgeting for, hiring and training hundreds if not thousands of border and customs official. When? Who will do it?
If Ireland doesn't want to be caught in this mess it should start seriously developing links with the continent which bypass the UK mainland. Rosslare due to its location is well suited for development and improvements.

jd

This is in the Indo today

http://www.independent.ie/business/brexit/majority-of-exporters-travel-through-britain-to-ship-goods-overseas-35517444.htm

Majority of exporters travel through Britain to ship goods overseas

Two thirds of exporters go through Britain to get their produce to customers on mainland Europe and further afield, a survey suggests.
And 40pc said that using a longer, yet more direct, route would adversely affect the quality of the product.
..

Marie Armstrong, IEA vice-president, said the number of exporters relying on the UK as a land bridge to the continent was "hugely significant"

..
She said businesses were looking at Irish ports and trying to weigh up which ones provided the easiest access to mainland Europe.
..

Also there was some discussion in the Dail recently
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2017-02-22a.267

loyatemu

I think there's far more shipping capacity via the UK, though that's partly because so much of our trade is with them. How many RORO sailings are there each day directly to the continent as compared to the UK?

sondagefaux

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the "landbridge" might not be such a massive issue if a practical solution is agreed on, like say trailers are sealed with an EU customs seal departing France which has to be in tact on arrival in Dublin.
BTW, this idea is not new, and in FAR FAR more hostile terroritory and times, trains and trucks from West Germany were allowed to pass through East Germany in transit to West Berlin.
If the UK becomes the new East Germany, then so be it.

It's not a new idea at all, it's been standard practice in international road haulage for decades:

The Convention on International Transport of Goods Under Cover of TIR Carnets (TIR Convention) is a multilateral treaty that was concluded at Geneva on 14 November 1975 to simplify and harmonise the administrative formalities of international road transport. (TIR stands for "Transports Internationaux Routiers" or "International Road Transports".) The 1975 convention replaced the TIR Convention of 1959, which itself replaced the 1949 TIR Agreement between a number of European countries.[2] The conventions were adopted under the auspices of the United Nations Economic Commission for Europe (UNECE). As of January 2017, there are 70 parties to the Convention, including 69 states and the European Union.

The TIR Convention establishes an international customs transit system with maximum facility to move goods:

in sealed vehicles or containers;
from a customs office of departure in one country to a customs office of destination in another country;
without requiring extensive and time-consuming border checks at intermediate borders;
while, at the same time, providing customs authorities with the required security and guarantees.
The TIR system not only covers customs transit by road but a combination is possible with other modes of transport (e.g., rail, inland waterway, and even maritime transport), as long as at least one part of the total transport is made by road.

To date, more than 33,000 international transport operators had been authorised (by their respective competent national authorities) to access the TIR system, using around 1.5 million TIR carnets per year.

In light of the expected increase in world trade, further enlargement of its geographical scope and the forthcoming introduction of an electronic TIR system (so-called "eTIR-system"), it is expected that the TIR system will continue to remain the only truly global customs transit system.

Due to the large blue-and-white TIR plates carried by vehicles using the TIR convention, the word "TIR" entered many languages, such as Turkish,[3] Polish[4] and Portuguese[5] as a neologism, becoming the default generic name of a large truck.

Truckers making use of the TIR procedure must first obtain an internationally harmonised customs document, referred to as a TIR carnet. TIR carnets are issued by national road transport associations. This customs document is valid internationally and as well as describing the goods, their shipper and their destination, represents a financial guarantee. When a truck arrives at a border customs post it need not pay import duties and taxes on goods at that time. Instead the payments are suspended. If the vehicle transits the country without delivering any goods, no taxes are due. If it fails to leave the country with all the goods, then the taxes are billed to the importer and the financial guarantee backstops the importer's obligation to pay the taxes. TIR transits are carried out in bond, i.e. the lorry must be sealed as well as bearing the carnet. The security payment system is administered by the International Road Transport Union (IRU).[6]

The TIR procedure is mostly used with Eastern European countries that are not in the EU (e.g. Russia and Ukraine), Turkey, and parts of the Near East. Since the formation of the European single market, the TIR procedure has become unnecessary for intra-EU goods transport.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TIR_Convention

sondagefaux

Sam Russell wrote: »

From the article, 2.6 million trucks per year - that is 300 per hour. That is not going to work, no matter what they do.

There's also the issue of border inspection posts (or the lack of them) in France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Ireland, the EU countries where most UK goods will end up entering the EU.

Every single animal, plant and food derived from animals or plants (including milk, meat etc) imported into the EU from outside the EU has to go through veterinary inspection or phytosanitary clearance at an EU-approved Border Inspection Post.

So a lorry load of milk being sent from Armagh to Dundalk would need to be approved by a vet's inspection at an EU-approved border inspection post in the republic.

Guess how many border inspection posts Ireland has? Two - one at Shannon, the other at Dublin Port. There are none along the border.

That's going to cause a slight problem for the 600 million litres of milk (25% of all milk consumed in the south) sent from Northern Ireland across the border every year...

France has one at Dunkirk, which wouldn't be able to cope with the numbers of trucks coming from the UK even if was increased in size 10 times over.

BTW, these inspections will still be required even if the UK does a free trade deal with the EU, unless it gets a very special trade deal that no other countries that don't have freedom of movement for people has been able to get. The only non-EU countries that have this type of trade deals are the ones in the EEA (Iceland, Norway, Liechtenstein) and Switzerland. All of those countries have freedom of movement for EU citizens, which the UK has rejected.

Basically, in practice the UK won't be able to export loads of different types of food products to the EU after Brexit, with or without a trade deal, unless it accepts freedom of movement for EU citizens, or unless the EU countries that have no or few border inspection posts now get approval from the EU to operate loads more.

Why would the French want to facilitate imports of British food, especially when doing so would require them to spend hundreds of millions of euros on expanding port and customs facilities, including new border inspection posts, and paying for staffing and other operating costs?

Not a hope in hell that they'll do this unless the UK agrees to meet either all or most of the costs.

There is then the small matter of Council Directive 97/78/EC laying down the principles governing the organisation of veterinary checks on products entering the Community from third countries.

... all exports from third countries must enter the EU via approved Border Inspection Posts, listed here. We can no longer send this type of traffic to Dover - there is no BIP there.

The closest BIP is Dunkirk, but that can only handle 5,000 consignments a year. That is approximately equivalent to about 300 metric tons a day. Yet, in one day (average), the UK exports 8,000 metric tons of meat (including poultrymeat) to the EU. Include dairy products and all the rest, and we're probably sending double that amount.

Unless, by dint of heroic negotiation, we can get these requirements waived, UK exports of foods of animal origin will effectively cease once Brexit takes effect. And if Mrs May "walks away", there is absolutely no chance of them continuing.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86362

Even if agreement is reached on all these issues, and the infrastructure is built, it'll take years before it's ready.

The delays in getting out of the UK onto the continent, even though Irish goods won't be subject to customs checks en route through the UK(see post on TIR system above), or on arrival into other EU countries, will make it very difficult for Irish goods to get to the continent via the UK, because of the queues of British trucks clogging up the roads and ports.

For all the naysayers and the clever-dicks claiming that I have been exaggerating, the Road Haulage Association a few days ago sounded a graphic warning of what could happen if the Government didn't get its act together on a customs agreement.

Says the Association, adding more detail in a separate report, Brexit could seriously damage Britain's food supplies because customs problems could cripple supply chains, leaving supermarkets short of supplies, as evocatively illustrated by the recent lettuce shortage. Crucially, unless the Government negotiates the right customs controls during forthcoming Brexit talks, the UK's fragile food supply could be seriously damaged.

The RHA fears that leaving the the EU could generate massive queues of lorries at the ports, with not enough experienced staff to cope with a backlog while fresh food supplies rot. RHA chief executive Richard Burnett says: "Nearly 30 percent of all food consumed in the UK comes from the EU and it all arrives in lorries. At the moment, the process is seamless – it's as easy to deliver from Milan to Manchester as it is from Manchester to Leeds as far as customs processes are concerned".

"After Brexit", Burnett says, "that will no longer be the case, and we have to get the new processes right. Otherwise the system for getting food into the country could grind to a halt". Massive queues of lorries could build up at ports with not enough experienced staff to cope with a backlog while fresh food supplies rot.

"We are not re-assured by recent government statements", Burnett adds. "The White Paper suggests that HMRC has a world-class customs service. For EU continental road haulage it has NO system. It will face new challenges and government must recognise that and assure business that HMRC will have whatever resources it requires to get the job done".

Burnett then concludes: "The RHA welcomes the government's commitment to cross-border trade being as frictionless as possible. But customs process for containers and air freight will not work for the millions of trucks that move through Dover and our ports". "There are nearly 4.5 million journeys between the UK and Europe each year that are HMRC-free at the moment. These trucks carry jobs, components, products – and 30 percent of our food".

The figure cited works out at over 12,000 trucks per day. We've been using the figure of 10,000 a day from Dover and via the Channel Tunnel. This checks out, as the Association says the "overwhelming majority" of the 4.5 million movements took place on ferries through Dover or by shuttle through the Channel Tunnel. Almost none of these required a customs clearance process at the port.

This detail is from the report accompanying the press release, which affirms that freight traffic between the UK and the EU does not require customs control now. On exit from the EU, it says, it is likely that all shipments will require customs control.

Each vehicle, we are told, can contain many individual shipments, there are no data on the number of individual consignments in vehicles entering or leaving the UK with EU goods, but inspection processes are based on consignments, not truck numbers. Current customs systems (where clearance is usually done on entry or exit from the UK for non-EU traffic) slows the movement of the vehicles. This slow-down is generally between 20 minutes and four hours.

Even at this modest rate, there is no space at the ports to handle the volume of traffic that will require customs clearance exiting or entering the UK, where the current dwell time averages six minutes.

What Burnett is referring to is routine customs control. In any operation, a proportion of the consignments will be picked for inspection. Yet, giving evidence recently to the Home Affairs Committee was Graeme Charnock, CFO at Peel Ports Group, the second largest ports group in the UK. He says that when a container is inspected, its dwell time at the port estate can be anywhere between two and four days.

James Hookham for the Freight Transport Association had already given his view, saying that, at the moment, vehicles entering the UK from across the Dover straits or through the tunnel, undergo virtually no customs interventions at all. Notifications are made for trade-tracking purposes, but there is open transport.

It is, he said, a free border so there is no intervention in the way, for example, that imports or exports from non-EU countries are subject to a physical check and possible inspection at the port of entry, where dedicated space is made available.

Hookham added that the physical space or infrastructure is not available, for example, at Dover or at many of the other ports through which EU traffic, both to the continent and to Ireland, currently pass.

But if there is no space at UK ports to handle routine customs clearance, there is certainly no room on Continental ports to handle the number of inspections especially if, when based on risk assessment of consignments from third countries, the inspection rate can be anything from 20-50 percent for targeted products or carriers.

This we saw recently in relation to Turkish Lemons where, after an increase in the number of detections of high levels of pesticide residues, the European Commission announced it was upping the inspection rate from ten to 20 percent. This is for a country with an established relationship but, as we pointed out yesterday, as a third country, the UK will have no track record. This automatically puts us in the high risk category.

Then, missing from the Committee evidence, and the RHA report is any mention of the need for exports to be routed via Border Inspection Posts (BIPs). I don't know what it will take to get BIPs into the public consciousness, but since the UK legacy media have ignored the issue, with recent exception of The Sun, I guess it will take some time yet.

And this is without resourcing issues for HMRC. According to the World Customs Organisation's Annual Report, the UK has about 5,000 customs staff. But the actual figure of staff with experience in the administration of international trade related customs procedures is likely to be significantly less.

This compares poorly with similar-sized countries, such as France (16,500 customs staff). An extra 5,000 officers, for example, with relevant overheads such as office space and pension contributions, could easily amount to £250m per year (£4.8m per week) for the government to fund.

One further concern is that HMRC has very few experts in key technical areas, such as in "valuation" or "origin" – two prerequisites for determining the correct amount of tariff duties. Business practitioners familiar with the customs service warn that several of the few individuals are close to retirement.

Nevertheless, one organ that hasn't ignored the cross-border issue is the Irish Examiner which is conveying views that Taoiseach Enda Kenny's desired "special deal" between the Republic and the North is not legally possible.

Customs legal experts Michael Lux and Eric Pickett also point out that a free trade agreement only means that goods made entirely or substantially in the partner country are free from import duty. Import VAT and excise duty are still due and will be collected in the context of an importation. The main goal, they say, is to ensure that the customs procedures and formalities will be as seamless and frictionless as possible for private persons and businesses.

The impossibility of a special deal is exactly as we pointed out yesterday, saying that the "colleagues" could not allow the UK to have a special deal, for fear of prejudicing the entire customs regime for third countries. And if, as a result, it is averred that Ireland is heading for Brexit "disaster", where does that put the UK?

That a "disaster" is on its way is indicated by the RHA's recommendation that a working group be established to deal with Ro-Ro and Irish land border issues. The RHA wants industry participation so that it can help prepare for the improved service levels that will be needed to ensure supply chains are not disrupted.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86370

Then there's the fact the the UK's customs IT system is creaking at the seams, the proposed replacement is years behind schedule and can't even be designed until the exact nature of customs controls between the UK and the EU is finalised (i.e. not until after Brexit!).

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86399

Then there's the fact that without agreements on mutual recognition of licences, vehicle roadworthiness certificates, and agreements between the UK and every single EU member state (plus all the non-EU European states), UK truck drivers and UK-registered trucks won't be allowed to drive in or through the EU.

http://www.eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=86342


If the UK decides to walk away from negotiations, Brexit is going to be a cluster-fúck of epic proportions.

sondagefaux

More information on those EU/EEA/Switzerland trucking rules:

On a recent Saturday at the Kapıkule border crossing, about 30 minutes drive from the Turkish city of Edirne, a line of trucks 4km long stretched along the highway, inching along glacially towards the Bulgarian checkpoints. “Today is a good day,” said Ibrahim Kurtukcu, a 42-year trucker who had been waiting 14 hours. “Last week the line was 7km long.” The record is 17km. It can take up to 30 hours to get through to the other side.

Each driver clutches a sheaf of several dozen documents — an export declaration, a carnet from Turkish customs officers, invoices for the products they are hauling, insurance certificates and, when lucky, a transport permit for each EU nation they will drive through.

They face mounds of paperwork, hours of waiting, a scrabbling for scarce transport permits and random inspections, all before trucks can enter the borderless trading bloc.

It is a bureaucratic load that negotiators say will be a “huge” point of contention in Brexit talks. The right of lorries to move freely is rarely granted by the bloc to its neighbours — and so far only on the condition of accepting the free movement of persons, something Britain is determined to avoid.

...

The biggest speed bump for Turkey is something that the UK could run into as well — transport permits for the 60,000 trucks Turkish operators want to send into the EU each year. For each country through which a Turkish truck needs to pass, the driver must hold a permit from that country’s ministry of transport or an equivalent body.

Those permits are usually limited by quota, and Turkish truckers say there are never enough. This Saturday, the shelf holding Austrian permits was bare — Turkey gets only 18,000 of them a year, and releases them on a bimonthly basis. An official at the border said Austrian permits had run out 18 days into the new year.

So until March 1 truckers aiming for Germany, a key trade destination, must instead drive to Austria’s border with Slovenia, and pay €1,000 to put their trucks on a train that rumbles through the Austrian countryside before depositing the trucks on the German border. Fines for driving through Austria without a transport permit can reach thousands of euros.

...

The EU has agreed open-access road transport deals only with a handful of neighbouring countries. This includes members of the European Economic Area, which Britain has said it will not join, and Switzerland, which has a special bilateral agreement.

Crucially, all the transport deals are premised on participation in the EU’s free movement of people area, which Britain also hopes to leave. In other words, even if Britain mirrors the EU rules on haulage, it may not be enough to secure free access for trucks to the EU market.

https://www.ft.com/content/b4458652-f42d-11e6-8758-6876151821a6

jd

There was some discussion on Morning Ireland about Rosslare Europort post Brexit

From about 1:43
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F10703752%5F48%5F30%2D03%2D2017%5F

There is a public meeting this evening i
n The Talbot Hotel which will touch on it too, I'm sure
https://www.facebook.com/1335959383113872/photos/a.1335971173112693.1073741826.1335959383113872/1335971069779370/?type=3&theater

vicwatson

jd wrote: »

There was some discussion on Morning Ireland about Rosslare Europort post Brexit

From about 1:43
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F10703752%5F48%5F30%2D03%2D2017%5F

There is a public meeting this evening i
n The Talbot Hotel which will touch on it too, I'm sure
https://www.facebook.com/1335959383113872/photos/a.1335971173112693.1073741826.1335959383113872/1335971069779370/?type=3&theater

Avril Doyle FFS !

jd

vicwatson wrote: »

Avril Doyle FFS !

Malcolm Byrne invited her! I wonder how the meeting went, I'm in Dublin.

sondagefaux

jd wrote: »

There was some discussion on Morning Ireland about Rosslare Europort post Brexit

From about 1:43
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplayer/rteradioweb.html#!rii=b9%5F10703752%5F48%5F30%2D03%2D2017%5F

There is a public meeting this evening i
n The Talbot Hotel which will touch on it too, I'm sure
https://www.facebook.com/1335959383113872/photos/a.1335971173112693.1073741826.1335959383113872/1335971069779370/?type=3&theater

Given that the UK is facing the possibility of huge traffic jams on the roads leading to Dover, Ireland needs to get its act together fast to improve direct links between Ireland and continental Europe.

Port of Dover struggles to avoid a Brexit cliff edge
The port is configured for ‘arrive and drive’ not a post-Brexit ‘wait and queue.’
By JOSHUA POSANER 3/30/17, 2:23 PM CET Updated 3/31/17, 5:57 PM CET

DOVER, England — Almost a fifth of the goods imported and exported by the U.K. make their way through the port of Dover, so a tough Brexit deal threatens to leave the port hopelessly congested.

Around 2.6 million trucks rumbled through the port in 2016, accounting for 17 percent of the U.K.’s trade in goods, worth £119 billion. Trucks take only seconds to clear the port, but if Brexit ends up creating regulatory and tariff barriers between the U.K. and the EU, the result could be a traffic nightmare.

“The talks must achieve a frictionless border, and for Dover that means maintaining the rapid transit of goods through the crossings … post-Brexit,” said Tim Waggott, the port’s chief executive.

The EU’s top Brexit negotiator recognizes the risk Brexit poses to the port. Michel Barnier warned of “lengthening lorry queues in Dover” in the event of “a no deal situation.”

Dover is fully integrated into a frictionless single market — customs checks were last carried out for U.K.-EU trade in 1992, and the industry will need time to adjust to what could be an extra 300 million declarations a year once outside the bloc, said James Hookham from the Freight Transport Association.

“We need to avoid checks at port terminals. They are configured for arrive and drive, not wait and queue,” he said.

Port spokesman Richard Christian, speaking from his office in the Victorian-era postcard-perfect townhouse that serves as the harbor headquarters, said custom checks at the port site are a “non-starter.” He instead wants to focus on solutions like digital customs clearance and rationalizing the more than 30 government agencies that currently have the right to stop traffic coming through the port.

The control tower overlooking Dover’s docks provide a good place to survey one of the U.K.’s key trade arteries, and the enormous task facing port authorities.

Ships laden with freight vehicles bring in everything from car parts to consumer goods. Along the cramped two-tiered road system inside the port, trucks wait in bays for one of 60 cross-channel trips a day. On a busy day, some 10,000 trucks transit through Dover. If traffic were halted for a single day, those trucks would form a line 160-kilometers long — stretching all the way around London to Stansted Airport.

Dover has already had a taste of the impact of that kind of a disruption. In 2015, strikes in France prompted the U.K. government to trigger Operation Stack — lining the highway to Dover with trucks unable to make it through the port.

But these stop-gap measures only provide buffer zones to manage temporary crises or peaks in demand. The highway capacity adds some spillover capacity for freight queueing, but Brexit threatens to make an infrequent situation chronic and bring traffic coming and going from Dover to a standstill.

In recent years, the port has been trying to manage a steady increase in traffic. It has demolished old buildings on the strip of land between the white cliffs and the English Channel to pave more area for waiting trucks. Lanes on the highway running inland have also been set aside for something called “the Dover Tap” in case they’re needed to hold trucks.

There isn’t much space to do more, thanks to the iconic cliffs hemming in the eastern port at Dover where freight-carrying ships dock.

Clearing out cargo sheds at the site where a quarter of the U.K.’s bananas arrive would free up a bit more space. Prime Minister Theresa May has promised to follow through on a commitment to build a truck park capable of getting 3,500 lorries off the road too. Even an old airfield has been used to ease pressure on the M20 highway during previous problem periods.

“That gives us extra capacity out on the highway, and enables us to keep Dover clear of congestion and pulse it through to match capacity in the port,” said Christian, the port spokesman. “That gives us extra time, but anything beyond that and we are in Operation Stack territory.”

Alternatives to Dover are in short supply. The nearby Eurotunnel takes about 40 percent of the freight vehicle traffic moving between the EU and U.K. each year, but the tunnel is expensive and can’t take over Dover’s capacity.

http://www.politico.eu/pro/port-of-dover-struggles-to-avoid-a-brexit-cliff-edge/

Trucks will have to undergo much more extensive, and time-consuming, checks after the UK leaves the EU.

This means that they'll have to be parked in waiting areas in Dover and other ports.

But there's no room in Dover to expand the existing waiting areas for trucks, unless the white cliffs of Dover are removed...

Without huge waiting areas, there are going to be huge queues of trucks on the roads leading into Dover.

Given the high levels of existing traffic congestion on roads in the south-east of England, and across the UK generally, the knock-on effects will lead to even worse congestion and delays on British roads, which will obviously affect Irish trucks driving through Britain to get to continental Europe.

Rather than driving on increasingly congested British roads, and sailing from increasingly congested British ports, it will make more sense for Irish exporters to send trucks directly from Ireland to the continent, which necessitates improving infrastructure in Ireland.

Cantona's Collars

Now is the time to start improving infrastructure around Rosslare, not adopt the wait and see approach that usually happens in Ireland then eventually half arse it.Look at the banks etc. in England.The government here went for the small fry and made zero concessions for the big boys that want out of London. Luxembourg threw out the red carpet while we made things difficult, guess where they are moving to?
We need the "if we build it,they will come" thought process.
We could even use NI to our advantage to have freight clear customs before they even leave the Island for Britain. As it stands,Calais,Dover etc.will be a nightmare for truckers and freight companies.We need to offer a workable alternative that runs smoothly.

kneemos

No great tailbacks in Enniscorthy these evenings,kavanagh's garage rather than the roundabout.
Would have thought it would be busier in the summer time but presumably the schools are a major contribution to the congestion.

murphaph

Brexit might yet lead to the relocation of Dublin port but not to North Dublin but Rosslare!

The British are off their heads these days. We need to make contingency plans involving upgrading the direct route to France.

I do wonder where the actual ferries would come from though. I don't know if the Irish Sea ones are actually suitable for the much longer voyage to Roscoff or Cherbourg.

jd

Some mention that Irish Rail have indicated they want to increase investment in Rosslare
http://www.southeastradio.ie/2017/07/irish-rail-commits-to-the-future-of-rosslare-europort/
http://www.fbj-online.com/archives/19681?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I can't find a link to the actual submission

Also there was some mention in the Wexford forum of congestion these days at the N11/N25 roundabout outside Wexford Town
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057735950

There may be a case to upgrade the N11 from Oylegate to the N25 (including an improved junction) sooner rather than later

road_high

jd wrote: »

Some mention that Irish Rail have indicated they want to increase investment in Rosslare
http://www.southeastradio.ie/2017/07/irish-rail-commits-to-the-future-of-rosslare-europort/
http://www.fbj-online.com/archives/19681?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

I can't find a link to the actual submission

Also there was some mention in the Wexford forum of congestion these days at the N11/N25 roundabout outside Wexford Town
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057735950

There may be a case to upgrade the N11 from Oylegate to the N25 (including an improved junction) sooner rather than later

Rosslare port should be taken off Irish Rail (why-tf are they running a port?) and given to some one actually competent that can develop the business.

McAlban

One of the first things I said after the Brexit referendum as that CIE should invest in Rosslare Europort.

The admin costs of clearing a shipment through customs is high (€50-100 per shipment) even before VAT and Duty, and will lead to the costs of importing and exporting goods increasing across the board. A direct connection from Rosslare to Cherbourg / Roscoff etc. Would be very busy.

I also do not understand why IE are not pushing to export their rail freight through Rosslare. Even with TIR the actual clearance of Goods UK-EU and vice versa will make Dover and Felixstowe an absolute mess.

jd

Some excerpts from the submission

Rosslare Europort is an important economic engine to both the South-East regional and
national economies. NPF policy support should be given to improved connectivity to the port
(road and rail) and to maximising the post Brexit role and capacity of the port.
..
Rosslare Europort
Rosslare Europort is the nearest Irish Seaport to the Continental Mainland, as well as having the shortest crossing from the Republic of Ireland to the UK. Rosslare Europort is the second largest seaport in the country for unitised freight.
..
Improving connectivity to Rosslare Europort will be a key priority over the NPF planning horizon, both in terms of connectivity to the port hinterland and international links to the UK and continental Europe. The implications of Brexit will make Rosslare Europort and its international connectivity become even more important. Improving road connectivity to the port (M11/N24/N25/N80), as well as the potential for developing rail freight, are key priorities.
The key strategic infrastructural development priorities for Rosslare Europort over the period of the NPF, that are necessary to enhance and maximise the potential of the port are;
• To deepen the port to accommodate modern larger high-capacity vessels
Figure 1
• To develop the port into a multi-modal facility including the development of a rail-freight interface (as the port has an existing rail link)
Both strategic priorities have the potential to deliver significant benefits to the regional / national economy and act a strong counter-weight to Dublin, which is increasingly congested.
Key Message: Rosslare Europort is an important economic engine to both the South-East regional and national economies. NPF policy support should be given to improved connectivity to the port (road and rail) and to maximising the post Brexit role and capacity of the port.

marno21

Wexford has got 2 large motorway schemes costing around €500m in total at the minute. This should do for the minute given that it'll considerably improve journey times especially on the N25.

road_high

marno21 wrote: »

Wexford has got 2 large motorway schemes costing around €500m in total at the minute. This should do for the minute given that it'll considerably improve journey times especially on the N25.

Totally agree. Once the N11 and N25 new sections are finished, then virtually all of both routes will have been replaced and significantly upgraded over the past 30 years- I don't see the rush to replace perfectly good single carriageway (i.e. N25 bypass around Wexford), when the traffic figures are around the 5-10k mark daily.
If anything, I'd be focusing any attention on the N80 after that.

jd

Traffic volumes are higher than that on ring road and section between Ferrycarrig and Oylegate. About 15k in 2007 I think. It fall down to 7k on n25 as you get nearer to Rosslare Harbour.

Main issue could be that n25 n11 junction.

road_high

jd wrote: »

Traffic volumes are higher than that on ring road and section between Ferrycarrig and Oylegate. About 15k in 2007 I think. It fall down to 7k on n25 as you get nearer to Rosslare Harbour.

Main issue could be that n25 n11 junction.

Still not an immediate priority. These roads were extensively upgraded late 80s/early 90s. There's still many busier/as busy routes of goat track standard that have never had an upgrade in half a century bar a new surface etc
Upgrade the roundabouts and close off some junctions and the Wexford bypass will do fine for another good while.

road_high

jd wrote: »

Traffic volumes are higher than that on ring road and section between Ferrycarrig and Oylegate. About 15k in 2007 I think. It fall down to 7k on n25 as you get nearer to Rosslare Harbour.

Main issue could be that n25 n11 junction.

Still not an immediate priority. These roads were extensively upgraded late 80s/early 90s. There's still many busier/as busy routes of goat track standard that have never had an upgrade in half a century bar a new surface etc
Upgrade the roundabouts and close off some junctions and the Wexford bypass will do fine for another good while. Much of it is local commuter traffic in any case

jd

road_high wrote:

Still not an immediate priority.

Maybe not, but this thread is discussing what may be needed post brexit.

road_high

jd wrote: »

Maybe not, but this thread is discussing what may be needed post brexit.

We're not sure what may happen post brexit but as it stands The roads which were extensively upgraded late 80s/early 90s are still perfectly adequate and with some junctions and roundabout improvements can still be. We can't speak about the N11/25 in isolation as the funding may be needed more critically elsewhere that's why I may the comparison.
A few suggestions I'd have are upgrade the roundabouts like the ones on the N10 kilkenny ring road which are wide and allow traffic flow to proceed in two lanes.
Get rid of that dangerous Johnstown castle junction and upgrade that flyover to a graded junction. Perhaps then it may even be possible to widen the stretch from the Whitford to Rosslare Rdabout to 2+2 carriageway.

jd

road_high wrote: »

A few suggestions I'd have are upgrade the roundabouts like the ones on the N10 kilkenny ring road which are wide and allow traffic flow to proceed in two lanes.
Get rid of that dangerous Johnstown castle junction and upgrade that flyover to a graded junction. Perhaps then it may even be possible to widen the stretch from the Whitford to Rosslare Rdabout to 2+2 carriageway.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that, I think an at grade/muh improved N11/N25 junction wold be more important than a replacement for the Johnstown CastleJunction.

Cantona's Collars

Witnessed first hand the delays between the roundabouts on the Wexford ring road,2nd gear was the highest until I eventually got through the last one headed back to Enniscorthy.
This issue will need to be addressed if priority is put on Rosslare Europort.

marno21

What's the main reason behind the volume of traffic?

road_high

It's effectively Wexford Relief road as well as a bypass. I'd say easily 50% of the traffic is local- Wexford town is very narrow (medieval) and built on a hill. Not easy get around so people use the N25.
Also peak loadings at ferry times and rush hour.

redfacedbear

Stena recently revised their sailing times on the Rosslare/Fishguard route too. You now have a sailing arriving in at 16:30 (and therefore traffic hitting the Wexford bypass from 17:00ish) just in time for the evening rush (such as it is).

It might be my imagination, but I think the bypass got perceptably worse when that sailing kicked in.