Do the clergy really believe?

realdanbreen

Peregrinus wrote: »

The preaching and teaching of Jesus, as recorded in the gospels, does not focus on "the absolute joy and happiness that lies ahead of us"; in fact he spoke only occasionally about any kind of afterlife; he had a great deal more to say about this life. And far from expressing or arousing enthusiasm, his teaching often left people puzzled, angry, sad or intimidated. Perhaps you think Jesus wasn't convinced either?

I think you're paying too much attention to preaching style, realdanbreen. Style is basically not very important, in this matter as in so many others.

That's all fine and dandy but the bottom line is that church numbers are plummetting and as for those under 30 years of age they are down to a trickle( and someone coming on saying 'the numbers in my church are fine' or 'I was at a retreat last month with loads of young people' does not cut any ice with me). Therefore at a time of crisis in the church you would imagine the clergy would be a bit more 'up for it'. Now that I think of it would it not be a good idea if someone higher up the ladder, a bishop or cardinal, did a one on one interview explaining and outlining their message in plain english. At this stage of crisis in the church reading from the letters of St Paul to the romans aint doing it.

sbsquarepants

hinault wrote: »

Wikipedia :rolleyes:

And they say Christians don't do irony!:D

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I haven't read the link, but any serious research or study of any subject should not quote Wikipedia. University lecturers would not be impressed if you quote Wikipedia in written assignments.

A lot of them wouldn't be too keen on quoting the bible either in fairness!

J C

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I haven't read the link, but any serious research or study of any subject should not quote Wikipedia. University lecturers would not be impressed if you quote Wikipedia in written assignments.

Perhaps your should read the link first ... and wikipedia is a peer reviewed referenced encyclpedia ... so, apart from a bit of snobbishness ... I don't see why lecturers don't allow students to quote (properly referenced) quotes from wikipedia.

Peregrinus

realdanbreen wrote: »

That's all fine and dandy but the bottom line is that church numbers are plummetting and as for those under 30 years of age they are down to a trickle( and someone coming on saying 'the numbers in my church are fine' or 'I was at a retreat last month with loads of young people' does not cut any ice with me). Therefore at a time of crisis in the church you would imagine the clergy would be a bit more 'up for it'. Now that I think of it would it not be a good idea if someone higher up the ladder, a bishop or cardinal, did a one on one interview explaining and outlining their message in plain english. At this stage of crisis in the church reading from the letters of St Paul to the romans aint doing it.

I don't think you can dismiss the example of Jesus with "that's all very find and dandy, but . . .". If that were the church's attitude to the gospel, I don't think any amount of ecstatic grinning about the pleasures of paradise could remedy the damage that must result.

Leaving issues of worship style aside, I'm also not drawn to your focus on the afterlife, heaven, the absolute joy and happiness that lie ahead of us. Again, the gospels are not really that focussed on the afterlife, rewards in paradise, etc, and the point about Christianity is not that it's a good deal, a bargain that you'll do well out of.

Pherekydes

J C wrote: »

... so, apart from a bit of snobbishness ... I don't see why lecturers don't allow students to quote (properly referenced) quotes from wikipedia.

Because they're not primary sources.

Any evolutionary biologist would know that!

realdanbreen

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't think you can dismiss the example of Jesus with "that's all very find and dandy, but . . .". If that were the church's attitude to the gospel, I don't think any amount of ecstatic grinning about the pleasures of paradise could remedy the damage that must result.

Leaving issues of worship style aside, I'm also not drawn to your focus on the afterlife, heaven, the absolute joy and happiness that lie ahead of us. Again, the gospels are not really that focussed on the afterlife, rewards in paradise, etc, and the point about Christianity is not that it's a good deal, a bargain that you'll do well out of.

So the fact that church numbers are plummetting and vocations are almost gone and young people are not going is of little concern to you? Theres not much point in you speaking about 'the absolute joy and happinness that lie ahead of us ' if nobody is listening.

Jodotman

I think very few believe to be honest and were somewhat forced into the church by their families or was popular at the time as a steady income.

If you can believe in God giving children cancer, letting them suffer terribly and not performing miracles to save them then what sort of a God is he?
Is it part of his plan to give children cancer?

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

So the fact that church numbers are plummetting and vocations are almost gone and young people are not going is of little concern to you? Theres not much point in you speaking about 'the absolute joy and happinness that lie ahead of us ' if nobody is listening.

Actually the number of priests worldwide has never been higher than it is today.

The number of Catholics is growing too.

The decline in practice in Europe is offset by the increase throughout the rest of the world.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/05/05/vatican-statistics-church-growth-remains-steady-worldwide/

realdanbreen

hinault wrote: »

Actually the number of priests worldwide has never been higher than it is today.

The number of Catholics is growing too.

The decline in practice in Europe is offset by the increase throughout the rest of the world.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/05/05/vatican-statistics-church-growth-remains-steady-worldwide/

Lets stick with this country, Ireland, for the moment. You also appear to be unconcerned about the freefall and decline of the church.

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

Lets stick with this country, Ireland, for the moment. You also appear to be unconcerned about the freefall and decline of the church.

I can't, nor would I wish, to force people to believe against their own free will.

Is the Irish Church in freefall? Freefall from what benchmark?

It is clear to me that many of those who previously filled the pews of Irish Church in their core were never Catholic. If they were they would still be in the pews.

The Church has had a long history of sending missionaries to regions where the faith may be in decline or where there is no faith at all.

During the Dark Ages, mainland Europe lost the faith. Only Ireland kept the faith alive and it was the Irish who re-evangelised Europe.

So should I be concerned at the decline of the Church. Yes, I'm concerned.

The reason for my concern is that countless souls will be lost because, either by omission or commission, they are outside the Catholic Church.

However, church history shows that the faith will be rekindled in Ireland perhaps through foreign missionaries coming to Ireland, if that is what is required.

sbsquarepants

Jodotman wrote: »

I think very few believe to be honest and were somewhat forced into the church by their families or was popular at the time as a steady income.

If you can believe in God giving children cancer, letting them suffer terribly and not performing miracles to save them then what sort of a God is he?
Is it part of his plan to give children cancer?

Mysterious ways, innit!

realdanbreen

hinault wrote: »

I can't, nor would I wish, to force people to believe against their own free will.

Is the Irish Church in freefall? Freefall from what benchmark?

.

You ask from what benchmark? How about the benchmark that there are no vocations to the priesthood or at least no numbers worth talking about. Or how about the fact that you could count on one hand the numer of uner 25's excluding children that are going to mass.

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

You ask from what benchmark? How about the benchmark that there are no vocations to the priesthood or at least no numbers worth talking about. Or how about the fact that you could count on one hand the numer of uner 25's excluding children that are going to mass.

There are vocations outside of Ireland. I know you don't want to speak about what is happening outside of Ireland, but the fact is that throughout history missionaries have re-evangelised regions of the church that have lost the faith.

I see quite a few young people attending Mass every Sunday.

The kitchen sink has been thrown at the Irish Church for the various scandals during the past 25 years. And rightly so.

However the Church chastised and reprimanded is still standing. People are still going to Mass and still attending the sacraments, in the aftermath of what has been a really terrible last 25 years or so.

realdanbreen

hinault wrote: »

There are vocations outside of Ireland. I know you don't want to speak about what is happening outside of Ireland, but the fact is that throughout history missionaries have re-evangelised regions of the church that have lost the faith.

I see quite a few young people attending Mass every Sunday.

The kitchen sink has been thrown at the Irish Church for the various scandals during the past 25 years. And rightly so.

However the Church chastised and reprimanded is still standing. People are still going to Mass and still attending the sacraments, in the aftermath of what has been a really terrible last 25 years or so.

Is there any possability that you can address at least some of what I raised in the opening post rather than answering questions that were never asked of you.

Nick Park

realdanbreen wrote: »

Is there any possability that you can address at least some of what I raised in the opening post rather than answering questions that were never asked of you.

He's simply responding to your assertions.

realdanbreen

Nick Park wrote: »

He's simply responding to your assertions.

He's not responding to any assertion that I made in the first post and that's for sure.

Dublinensis

I believe in heaven, but that doesn't mean that I'm at all sure that that's where I'd be going if I were to be run over by a bus tomorrow.

Perhaps many of the clergy are in a similar position.

Or perhaps they're just aware that, in this part of the world at least, excessive enthusiasm would be likely to make them seem strange.

Nick Park

realdanbreen wrote: »

He's not responding to any assertion that I made in the first post and that's for sure.

No, but you've continued to make other assertions, to which he is responding. This is a discussion forum, not a blog. If you open those doors then you can expect others to go through them.

Mrs OBumble

realdanbreen wrote: »

Or how about the fact that you could count on one hand the numer of uner 25's excluding children that are going to mass.

Have you ever been to a Youth 2000 event? Or a university chaplaincy one?

Might help you take the blinkers off ....

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

He's not responding to any assertion that I made in the first post and that's for sure.

I have responded. See my previous direct reply to you.

realdanbreen

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Have you ever been to a Youth 2000 event? Or a university chaplaincy one?

Might help you take the blinkers off ....

No, but it's this burying the head in the sand as if there is no crisis that is baffling me .

realdanbreen

Nick Park wrote: »

No, but you've continued to make other assertions, to which he is responding. This is a discussion forum, not a blog. If you open those doors then you can expect others to go through them.

I am well aware that it is a discussion forum that is why I was hoping for a discussion about why the clergy-in my experience-don't appear too enthused about spreading the word. All I appear to be getting in response is a series of red herrings and how Catholicism is going well in Africa. But hey I'm around long enough to know that if I am to benefit from/in an afterlife it will not be thanks to what any clergyman said to me.

J C

realdanbreen wrote: »

No, but it's this burying the head in the sand as if there is no crisis that is baffling me .

These Youth 2000 Events are also a form of burying heads in the sand as well ... from what I have seen of them on the internet.

All a Christian really needs is an unswerving belief in Jesus Christ ... and everything else will be given onto them !!

J C

Pherekydes wrote: »

Because they're not primary sources.

Any evolutionary biologist would know that!

Most sources are secondary ... and once they are properly referenced ... they are acceptable ... and every Evolutionary Biologist knows that.:)

Mrs OBumble

realdanbreen wrote: »

No, but it's this burying the head in the sand as if there is no crisis that is baffling me .

Oh I agree that there is an enormous challenge. God is kicking Irish lay people up the arse in an unprecedented way.

But I dont see it as a bad thing.

Absolam

realdanbreen wrote: »

No, but it's this burying the head in the sand as if there is no crisis that is baffling me .

I think perhaps that different people see different crises? You think there's a problem with enthusiasm, but others see a problem with abuse. Hinault's view is the Church has rightly taken a great deal of flak and needs to make an effort to reestablish itself as a credible, worthy organisation, but that this is far from beyond the scope of it's abilities. The Church has risen to meet great challenges before.

realdanbreen

Absolam wrote: »

I think perhaps that different people see different crises? You think there's a problem with enthusiasm, but others see a problem with abuse. Hinault's view is the Church has rightly taken a great deal of flak and needs to make an effort to reestablish itself as a credible, worthy organisation, but that this is far from beyond the scope of it's abilities. The Church has risen to meet great challenges before.

Not just a problem with enthusiasm. The real problem is that I don't get a sense that the clergy themselves have absolute faith. You mention 'different people see different crises', surely the major crisis is that the church in Ireland is crumbling with little or no new vocations, falling numbers, little interest from young adults. I have seen no post in this thread that seems to accept these basic facts and certainly no suggestions on how to revive the church. As a kid I used to think that the story about the Emperors new clothes was a bit far fetched but now I'm not so sure.

Peregrinus

realdanbreen wrote: »

Not just a problem with enthusiasm. The real problem is that I don't get a sense that the clergy themselves have absolute faith. You mention 'different people see different crises', surely the major crisis is that the church in Ireland is crumbling with little or no new vocations, falling numbers, little interest from young adults. I have seen no post in this thread that seems to accept these basic facts and certainly no suggestions on how to revive the church. As a kid I used to think that the story about the Emperors new clothes was a bit far fetched but now I'm not so sure.

I think those "basic facts" are accepted by all, realdanbreen. We all recognise the problem. The issue in this thread is whether fervent enthusiasm about the wonders of the afterlife is an effective way to address it.

It seems to me that the church's problem comes down to credibility, partly as a result of its own undoubted and glaring failings, but also partly as a result of the "spirit of the age", which is generally sceptical of institutions, particularly those claiming authority.

But, given that the church's problem is credibility, why would the church have any more credibility when it promises a glorious afterlife that it does in anything else it may say? If anything this would increase people's scepticism; they would see the church as trying to buy allegiance/support through making promises whose reliablity cannot be tested.

If the church's problem is a lack of credibility, then it has to address that problem by earning the credibility it once had but has now lost. And I think the way to do that is by living a life of faithful commitment to the gospel. That's not easy, I grant you - the gospel is nothing if not challenging - but it's the only way. Excited promises of a glorious afterlife are no substitute.

realdanbreen

I watched Fr Brian Darcy on last weeks late late show and I must say he impressed me with his outlook and take on the church in genreral. Previously I had looked on him as a bit of a showman but fair dues to him he came accross well.

nozzferrahhtoo

realdanbreen wrote: »

Do the clergy really believe?

Hard to say really. I think we can safely assume that not ALL of them do for a few reasons. And I think we can assume some of them started on that path not believing and some started believing and then stopped.

So it will be a "some do some don't" kind of answer I expect.

For example of people who lost the faith we hear anecdotes sometimes from ex-believers who believed it all until they actually sat down and read their "holy book" and it struck them entirely as nonsense and they lost their belief. Since someone studying for clerical positions will be reading their holy book of choice closely..... we can assume it MUST happen to some of them too.

For example of people who maybe never had it.... there are people who genuinely feel they want to help in the world. Do charity work. Work closely with people in grief or pain. Be a teacher or guiding light in their community. And they might simply realize that the church and priesthood is (or at least was, I think it's role here is greatly diminished but that is another topic) one path to doing that..... even doing it on a salary. Did not even the often celebrated Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu write in her diaries about what sounded like a near complete loss of faith despite continuing to do what was, if only in her own opinion, good charity work?

Some strike me as being in their personal cleric role for entirely self serving reasons too. My mother worked for a brief time in a secretarial role in the Jesuit Office in Dublin City Centre (Was somewhere in the Abbey Street area, can not recall exactly where myself).

I met her "Boss" a Jesuit Priest and had a few conversations with him. He struck me as someone with absolutely no belief in any gods but was attracted to the Jesuits for the essentially "eternal academic" aspect of their life style........ being as they are thought to be one of the orders most committed to study of history, art, language and so on.

He basically saw the Cleric role as a way to be an eternal student of sorts. Which I almost found admirable in a way and was impressed with his ability to speak other languages, including latin, with the same ease and mastery as I have over English. And he seemed deeply informed on any subject I happened to bring up with him, from science through culture and out to politics.

When I was doing me own "study" of the Eucharist, and had to obtain a load of them for experimental purposes, I made a point of interviewing quite a few priests in that period. They were quite open and approachable and nice. But like you, they seemed to me to lack any real commitment or enthusiasm. And most of them indicated they did not actually think ANY level of conversation happened in the bread. Real or Spiritual. They saw the ceremony as entirely symbolic and did not seem to care much if that position differed from Catholic Doctrine in any way. It really was just bread to them in every way.

But we do know from things like the "Clergy Project" in the US run by people like Daniel Dennett, that there is a large sub group of clergy who have entirely lost their faith (or never had it) and do not quite know how to "come out" to anyone or to "get out" of their path or career. Dennett talks about how he was surprised just how much of an uptake the project got and how many clergy were genuinely going through life turmoil about it.

Dennett talks about something that might be applicable to the clergy you and I met. He talks about "belief in belief". A phenomenon where the people in question do not ACTUALLY believe any of it, but they believe in the utility or benefits of acting like you do. Convincing others you do or even, for some, convincing yourself you do.

But there is also a fine line to be cognizant of between lacking enthusiasm and being TOO enthusiastic. It is quite easy to cross that line and become the kind of person people cross the street, or change seats on a bus, to get away from. It does not pay to be seen to be TOO faithful or religious, even among other devoutly religious peoples. Which in some way fits into the "belief in belief" narrative.

It does remind me of that line of dialogue in the film Dogma from the character called "the Muse". She said to the catholic female lead character "You Catholics do not celebrate your faith, you mourn it". And while it was clearly a throw away line in a comedy film..... it still settled on my mind as having a strong air of relevance about it.