Do the clergy really believe?

realdanbreen

I have been attending mass and various services for a long time and spoken to clergy men and women often enough and yet I can never recall coming away from any of these occasions feeling uplifted or inspired by what they said. I just feel if I was a cleric and convinced of the afterlife and heaven etc I would be so full of enthusiasm that I would hardly be able to contain myself. Anyone else feel a bit underwhelmed by it all?

realdanbreen

Title of thread should of course be ' do the clergy really believe'

looksee

Probably to the same extent that the congregation believes, or politicians believe what they are saying, or used car salesmen believe what they tell customers about a car, or a salesperson in a shop believes what they tell you about the wiseness of your choice.

Some do, some don't, some think they do, some know they don't, some do but find it difficult to put over what they feel - they are content with their own belief and do not feel the necessity to do enthusiasm for other people. Some have lost their conviction but can't bring themselves to move out of the groove they are in. They are just people with all the virtues and failings of people, you cannot generalise to the extent you would apparently like to.

Manach

Personally, I found the one's I've met in person to be as one would expect, not being able to second guess, but I've not had reason to wonder. For those I've read, as authors, they range widely in tone (from fervent to learned) but have a constant reverence for their belief.

Mrs OBumble

realdanbreen wrote: »

I just feel if I was a cleric and convinced of the afterlife and heaven etc I would be so full of enthusiasm that I would hardly be able to contain myself.

They see people at their best at their worst.

For example a priest may do confessions on Saturday morning - lots of people with scruples - but one who needs some serious spiritual guidance, and a couple who need referral to welfare agencies - and he's got to work out which is which. Then marry a couple on Saturday afternoon - joyous occasion. Go the the meal for a while and socialise with a huge number of people he's never met, who all have their own agenda about church and share it with the only minister they've spoken to in years. Go home, and at 11pm get a call from a parishoner whose kid has just had whatever tragedy. Accompany them to the hospital / morgue / whatever. Tragic - the parents are absolutely not in a space to hear about the joys of eternal life!. Get home to bed at 3am. Up at 8am to turn on the heating for the 10am service ... get an earful from someone who's upset about something trivial compared to last night's experience, but still important enough - and have to maintain a professional stance with them as well as double-check the day's sermon.

Not every day is that extreme, but some are. And you'll never know with any individual what they've run in to lately.

Can you can see why some people might not be brimming over with charisma when you meet them?

Absolam

I think that's why it's a vocation; being a clergyperson is an extraordinary commitment. My own experience is that those who don't believe tend to leave, but what those who do believe believe can be a very broad spectrum.

realdanbreen

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

They see people at their best at their worst.

For example a priest may do confessions on Saturday morning - lots of people with scruples - but one who needs some serious spiritual guidance, and a couple who need referral to welfare agencies - and he's got to work out which is which. Then marry a couple on Saturday afternoon - joyous occasion. Go the the meal for a while and socialise with a huge number of people he's never met, who all have their own agenda about church and share it with the only minister they've spoken to in years. Go home, and at 11pm get a call from a parishoner whose kid has just had whatever tragedy. Accompany them to the hospital / morgue / whatever. Tragic - the parents are absolutely not in a space to hear about the joys of eternal life!. Get home to bed at 3am. Up at 8am to turn on the heating for the 10am service ... get an earful from someone who's upset about something trivial compared to last night's experience, but still important enough - and have to maintain a professional stance with them as well as double-check the day's sermon.

Not every day is that extreme, but some are. And you'll never know with any individual what they've run in to lately.

Can you can see why some people might not be brimming over with charisma when you meet them?

None of the above changes the fact that I simply cannot recall having met or listened to a clergyman or woman who seemed absolutely fired up and wanted to convince me or even share their enthusiasm! This is not a criticism it is simply my observation.

Absolam

I think that kind of zealotry tends to be the province of young converts
I've noticed that American and African clergy tend more towards overt enthusiasm, but perhaps in Ireland we're already inclined to be a bit staid, even before you get to the fact that there is often quite a bit of hostility towards clergy these days, which may encourage them to be more circumspect, particularly in public social circumstances?

NIMAN

Most of them are fairly intelligent people, do they honestly think they can change bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ?

Honestly?

If so, I think they need to seek medical help.

Absolam

NIMAN wrote: »

Most of them are fairly intelligent people, do they honestly think they can change bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ?

Honestly?

If so, I think they need to seek medical help.

I'm pretty sure none of them think they can do that, so we needn't worry about a sudden rush of demand on the medical professions. I'm pretty sure many of them know God can do it though

hinault

NIMAN wrote: »

Most of them are fairly intelligent people, do they honestly think they can change bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ?

Honestly?

If so, I think they need to seek medical help.

The priest offering Mass is not the cause of the miracle of Transubstantiation.
God is the source of all miracles including Transubstantiation.

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

I have been attending mass and various services for a long time and spoken to clergy men and women often enough and yet I can never recall coming away from any of these occasions feeling uplifted or inspired by what they said. I just feel if I was a cleric and convinced of the afterlife and heaven etc I would be so full of enthusiasm that I would hardly be able to contain myself. Anyone else feel a bit underwhelmed by it all?

I guess in all walks of life and professions, you're bound to find practitioners who are more, or less, enthusiastic relative to their colleagues.

Peregrinus

I think there's a a fundamental mistake in assuming that the genuineness of someone's belief is connected to the apparent enthusiasm with which it is expressed.

If we really thought that, we'd have to assume that Donald Trump believes everything he says, even when he says contradictory things, or when he lightly abandons one professed belief for another.

realdanbreen

OK let me put it another way. Let's say that I am a priest. Would (or should) I not enthuse, without going OTT, about the absolute joy and happiness that lies ahead of us ? It ain't happening as far as I am concerned and the only conclusion that I am coming to is that that conviction is not there.

looksee

I think you are using Catholic priests as an example, but traditionally the church was not too concerned about how the individual responded to the Mass, what mattered was that it was said and the priests' involvement was between themselves and god, not the congregation. All the people were required to do was be present and believe.

The whole business of enthusiasm, being joyful and taking part is relatively recent, and even now is more usually found in evangelistic churches.

Mrs OBumble

realdanbreen wrote: »

OK let me put it another way. Let's say that I am a priest. Would (or should) I not enthuse, without going OTT, about the absolute joy and happiness that lies ahead of us ? It ain't happening as far as I am concerned and the only conclusion that I am coming to is that that conviction is not there.

Personally speaking, the joys or whatever of eternal life don't exercise my mind too much. I'm more focussed on living today following Jesus' example (which is pretty damn hard to follow!) as best I can work out, and quite happy to let the afterlife look after itself.

Obviously priests / ministers called to full time service will have a stronger religious focus than me - but a big part of their job involves hearing about the misery which people are living in now. Eternal life might be lovely, but to get there many people have to live through some version of hell on earth first.

J C

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Personally speaking, the joys or whatever of eternal life don't exercise my mind too much. I'm more focussed on living today following Jesus' example (which is pretty damn hard to follow!) as best I can work out, and quite happy to let the afterlife look after itself.

Obviously priests / ministers called to full time service will have a stronger religious focus than me - but a big part of their job involves hearing about the misery which people are living in now. Eternal life might be lovely, but to get there many people have to live through some version of hell on earth first.

A bit negative, if I may say so. Health workers, police, etc. see just as much bad stuff as any clergyman ... but it doesn't take over their lives.
I think there is an issue there allright with clergy (and indeed their flocks) and belief.
While, I fully understand that anybody can have a bad day ... the fact that I have yet to meet a single clergyman (or woman) who says that they are Saved, may explain some of the despondancy described by the OP.

hinault

J C wrote: »

A bit negative, if I may say so. Health workers, police, etc. see just as much bad stuff as any clergyman ... but it doesn't take over their lives.
I think there is an issue there allright with clergy (and indeed their flocks) and belief.
While, I fully understand that anybody can have a bad day ... the fact that I have yet to meet a single clergyman (or woman) who says that they are Saved, may explain some of the despondancy described by the OP.

If any one is presuming that they are going to Heaven, they're engaging in sin. They're engaging in sin because presumption is the exact opposite of the virtue of hope.

Therefore presumption (of salvation) is a vice and is sinful.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12403a.htm

realdanbreen

hinault wrote: »

If any one is presuming that they are going to Heaven, they're engaging in sin. They're engaging in sin because presumption is the exact opposite of the virtue of hope.

Therefore presumption (of salvation) is a vice and is sinful.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12403a.htm

And this pf course has nothing to do with topic being discussed.
It's obvious from the previous posts that I am not alone in not having encountered a clergyman or woman that appeared to be genuinely enthusiastic about entering heaven in the afterlife.

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

And this pf course has nothing to do with topic being discussed.
It's obvious from the previous posts that I am not alone in not having encountered a clergyman or woman that appeared to be genuinely enthusiastic about entering heaven in the afterlife.

It's everything to do with the message which I was replying to though.

J C

hinault wrote: »

If any one is presuming that they are going to Heaven, they're engaging in sin. They're engaging in sin because presumption is the exact opposite of the virtue of hope.

Therefore presumption (of salvation) is a vice and is sinful.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12403a.htm

We'll have to agree to differ on that one ... its called Eternal Security ... and for anybody who wants to know more, it's covered here:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

J C

hinault wrote: »

It's everything to do with the message which I was replying to though.

I think that it has to do with the OP as well ... any Saved people that I have met are entusiastic about their faith ... and, being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, they have an answer to every difficult question posed to them.

Clergy, in general, seem to look on their work as some kind of chore or drudgery - and I find that many Atheists have more knowledge of (and indeed interest in) the Bible and Christian Doctrine than they have ... strange, but true.

blindside88

When ever I think of this I always think of my friends cousin. He's a priest for the last 10 years. My friend once asked him "if a man came along and told you he a was Jesus returned would you follow him?", his answer was "I would in my sh*te". We had a great laugh about what would have happened if he was one of the apostles. I know this isn't every clergy persons reaction but I imagine it would be the reaction of most

hinault

J C wrote: »

We'll have to agree to differ on that one ... its called Eternal Security ... and for anybody who wants to know more, it's covered here:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

Wikipedia :rolleyes:

J C

blindside88 wrote: »

When ever I think of this I always think of my friends cousin. He's a priest for the last 10 years. My friend once asked him "if a man came along and told you he a was Jesus returned would you follow him?", his answer was "I would in my sh*te". We had a great laugh about what would have happened if he was one of the apostles. I know this isn't every clergy persons reaction but I imagine it would be the reaction of most

... but Jesus does come along and asks us to follow Him ... and by doing so we become Christians.
OK, He doesn't manifest physically ... but Christians follow Him.

J C

hinault wrote: »

Wikipedia :rolleyes:

... and your problem???

Mrs OBumble

Also, you also need to remember that mainline clergy have had a very tough time in the last 20-ish years.

Some people (a minority, but sizeable enough - we see them post here sometimes) believe that every single one of them is a kid-f*cking pervert. Many other people aren't sure. They now have to operate within incredibly close guidelines to protect themselves from unfounded and/or malicious accusations. They all know some who have been the subject of such accusations.

And they are aging and their numbers are dwindling. Today's young clergy know that they will soon enough be refusing requests that seem totally reasonable ("Mam's died, can you give her last rites, and can we have the funeral tomorrow afternoon" - "sorry, I cannot get there for last rites until the day after tomorrow. If you want a funeral Mass, you need to join with the others in the parish at 2pm on Thursdays, if you'd like a prayer service only then one of the lay-ministers will be available to lead it the day after tomorrow").

Whatever they believe about what happens in the next life, their mood in this life will be coloured by this.

J C

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Also, you also need to remember that mainline clergy have had a very tough time in the last 20-ish years.

Some people (a minority, but sizeable enough - we see them post here sometimes) believe that every single one of them is a kid-f*cking pervert. Many other people aren't sure. They now have to operate within incredibly close guidelines to protect themselves from unfounded and/or malicious accusations. They all know some who have been the subject of such accusations.

And they are aging and their numbers are dwindling. Today's young clergy know that they will soon enough be refusing requests that seem totally reasonable ("Mam's died, can you give her last rites, and can we have the funeral tomorrow afternoon" - "sorry, I cannot get there for last rites until the day after tomorrow. If you want a funeral Mass, you need to join with the others in the parish at 2pm on Thursdays, if you'd like a prayer service only then one of the lay-ministers will be available to lead it the day after tomorrow").

Whatever they believe about what happens in the next life, their mood in this life will be coloured by this.

The RCC is in deep trouble ... and I have great empathy for old priests who have given their lives in service of their church only to be 'rewarded' by what you describe above.

Jellybaby1

realdanbreen wrote: »

I have been attending mass and various services for a long time and spoken to clergy men and women often enough and yet I can never recall coming away from any of these occasions feeling uplifted or inspired by what they said. I just feel if I was a cleric and convinced of the afterlife and heaven etc I would be so full of enthusiasm that I would hardly be able to contain myself. Anyone else feel a bit underwhelmed by it all?

I think you are mainly referring to the RCC, but as an Anglican I can say that I have met several Evangelical Anglican clergy who are still excited by their faith and can preach it and teach it and inspire those who listen. They attract huge numbers to their churches.

Jellybaby1

J C wrote: »

We'll have to agree to differ on that one ... its called Eternal Security ... and for anybody who wants to know more, it's covered here:-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

I haven't read the link, but any serious research or study of any subject should not quote Wikipedia. University lecturers would not be impressed if you quote Wikipedia in written assignments.

Peregrinus

realdanbreen wrote: »

OK let me put it another way. Let's say that I am a priest. Would (or should) I not enthuse, without going OTT, about the absolute joy and happiness that lies ahead of us ? It ain't happening as far as I am concerned and the only conclusion that I am coming to is that that conviction is not there.

The preaching and teaching of Jesus, as recorded in the gospels, does not focus on "the absolute joy and happiness that lies ahead of us"; in fact he spoke only occasionally about any kind of afterlife; he had a great deal more to say about this life. And far from expressing or arousing enthusiasm, his teaching often left people puzzled, angry, sad or intimidated. Perhaps you think Jesus wasn't convinced either?

I think you're paying too much attention to preaching style, realdanbreen. Style is basically not very important, in this matter as in so many others.

realdanbreen

Peregrinus wrote: »

The preaching and teaching of Jesus, as recorded in the gospels, does not focus on "the absolute joy and happiness that lies ahead of us"; in fact he spoke only occasionally about any kind of afterlife; he had a great deal more to say about this life. And far from expressing or arousing enthusiasm, his teaching often left people puzzled, angry, sad or intimidated. Perhaps you think Jesus wasn't convinced either?

I think you're paying too much attention to preaching style, realdanbreen. Style is basically not very important, in this matter as in so many others.

That's all fine and dandy but the bottom line is that church numbers are plummetting and as for those under 30 years of age they are down to a trickle( and someone coming on saying 'the numbers in my church are fine' or 'I was at a retreat last month with loads of young people' does not cut any ice with me). Therefore at a time of crisis in the church you would imagine the clergy would be a bit more 'up for it'. Now that I think of it would it not be a good idea if someone higher up the ladder, a bishop or cardinal, did a one on one interview explaining and outlining their message in plain english. At this stage of crisis in the church reading from the letters of St Paul to the romans aint doing it.

sbsquarepants

hinault wrote: »

Wikipedia :rolleyes:

And they say Christians don't do irony!:D

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I haven't read the link, but any serious research or study of any subject should not quote Wikipedia. University lecturers would not be impressed if you quote Wikipedia in written assignments.

A lot of them wouldn't be too keen on quoting the bible either in fairness!

J C

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I haven't read the link, but any serious research or study of any subject should not quote Wikipedia. University lecturers would not be impressed if you quote Wikipedia in written assignments.

Perhaps your should read the link first ... and wikipedia is a peer reviewed referenced encyclpedia ... so, apart from a bit of snobbishness ... I don't see why lecturers don't allow students to quote (properly referenced) quotes from wikipedia.

Peregrinus

realdanbreen wrote: »

That's all fine and dandy but the bottom line is that church numbers are plummetting and as for those under 30 years of age they are down to a trickle( and someone coming on saying 'the numbers in my church are fine' or 'I was at a retreat last month with loads of young people' does not cut any ice with me). Therefore at a time of crisis in the church you would imagine the clergy would be a bit more 'up for it'. Now that I think of it would it not be a good idea if someone higher up the ladder, a bishop or cardinal, did a one on one interview explaining and outlining their message in plain english. At this stage of crisis in the church reading from the letters of St Paul to the romans aint doing it.

I don't think you can dismiss the example of Jesus with "that's all very find and dandy, but . . .". If that were the church's attitude to the gospel, I don't think any amount of ecstatic grinning about the pleasures of paradise could remedy the damage that must result.

Leaving issues of worship style aside, I'm also not drawn to your focus on the afterlife, heaven, the absolute joy and happiness that lie ahead of us. Again, the gospels are not really that focussed on the afterlife, rewards in paradise, etc, and the point about Christianity is not that it's a good deal, a bargain that you'll do well out of.

Pherekydes

J C wrote: »

... so, apart from a bit of snobbishness ... I don't see why lecturers don't allow students to quote (properly referenced) quotes from wikipedia.

Because they're not primary sources.

Any evolutionary biologist would know that!

realdanbreen

Peregrinus wrote: »

I don't think you can dismiss the example of Jesus with "that's all very find and dandy, but . . .". If that were the church's attitude to the gospel, I don't think any amount of ecstatic grinning about the pleasures of paradise could remedy the damage that must result.

Leaving issues of worship style aside, I'm also not drawn to your focus on the afterlife, heaven, the absolute joy and happiness that lie ahead of us. Again, the gospels are not really that focussed on the afterlife, rewards in paradise, etc, and the point about Christianity is not that it's a good deal, a bargain that you'll do well out of.

So the fact that church numbers are plummetting and vocations are almost gone and young people are not going is of little concern to you? Theres not much point in you speaking about 'the absolute joy and happinness that lie ahead of us ' if nobody is listening.

Jodotman

I think very few believe to be honest and were somewhat forced into the church by their families or was popular at the time as a steady income.

If you can believe in God giving children cancer, letting them suffer terribly and not performing miracles to save them then what sort of a God is he?
Is it part of his plan to give children cancer?

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

So the fact that church numbers are plummetting and vocations are almost gone and young people are not going is of little concern to you? Theres not much point in you speaking about 'the absolute joy and happinness that lie ahead of us ' if nobody is listening.

Actually the number of priests worldwide has never been higher than it is today.

The number of Catholics is growing too.

The decline in practice in Europe is offset by the increase throughout the rest of the world.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/05/05/vatican-statistics-church-growth-remains-steady-worldwide/

realdanbreen

hinault wrote: »

Actually the number of priests worldwide has never been higher than it is today.

The number of Catholics is growing too.

The decline in practice in Europe is offset by the increase throughout the rest of the world.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/05/05/vatican-statistics-church-growth-remains-steady-worldwide/

Lets stick with this country, Ireland, for the moment. You also appear to be unconcerned about the freefall and decline of the church.

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

Lets stick with this country, Ireland, for the moment. You also appear to be unconcerned about the freefall and decline of the church.

I can't, nor would I wish, to force people to believe against their own free will.

Is the Irish Church in freefall? Freefall from what benchmark?

It is clear to me that many of those who previously filled the pews of Irish Church in their core were never Catholic. If they were they would still be in the pews.

The Church has had a long history of sending missionaries to regions where the faith may be in decline or where there is no faith at all.

During the Dark Ages, mainland Europe lost the faith. Only Ireland kept the faith alive and it was the Irish who re-evangelised Europe.

So should I be concerned at the decline of the Church. Yes, I'm concerned.

The reason for my concern is that countless souls will be lost because, either by omission or commission, they are outside the Catholic Church.

However, church history shows that the faith will be rekindled in Ireland perhaps through foreign missionaries coming to Ireland, if that is what is required.

sbsquarepants

Jodotman wrote: »

I think very few believe to be honest and were somewhat forced into the church by their families or was popular at the time as a steady income.

If you can believe in God giving children cancer, letting them suffer terribly and not performing miracles to save them then what sort of a God is he?
Is it part of his plan to give children cancer?

Mysterious ways, innit!

realdanbreen

hinault wrote: »

I can't, nor would I wish, to force people to believe against their own free will.

Is the Irish Church in freefall? Freefall from what benchmark?

.

You ask from what benchmark? How about the benchmark that there are no vocations to the priesthood or at least no numbers worth talking about. Or how about the fact that you could count on one hand the numer of uner 25's excluding children that are going to mass.

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

You ask from what benchmark? How about the benchmark that there are no vocations to the priesthood or at least no numbers worth talking about. Or how about the fact that you could count on one hand the numer of uner 25's excluding children that are going to mass.

There are vocations outside of Ireland. I know you don't want to speak about what is happening outside of Ireland, but the fact is that throughout history missionaries have re-evangelised regions of the church that have lost the faith.

I see quite a few young people attending Mass every Sunday.

The kitchen sink has been thrown at the Irish Church for the various scandals during the past 25 years. And rightly so.

However the Church chastised and reprimanded is still standing. People are still going to Mass and still attending the sacraments, in the aftermath of what has been a really terrible last 25 years or so.

realdanbreen

hinault wrote: »

There are vocations outside of Ireland. I know you don't want to speak about what is happening outside of Ireland, but the fact is that throughout history missionaries have re-evangelised regions of the church that have lost the faith.

I see quite a few young people attending Mass every Sunday.

The kitchen sink has been thrown at the Irish Church for the various scandals during the past 25 years. And rightly so.

However the Church chastised and reprimanded is still standing. People are still going to Mass and still attending the sacraments, in the aftermath of what has been a really terrible last 25 years or so.

Is there any possability that you can address at least some of what I raised in the opening post rather than answering questions that were never asked of you.

Nick Park

realdanbreen wrote: »

Is there any possability that you can address at least some of what I raised in the opening post rather than answering questions that were never asked of you.

He's simply responding to your assertions.

realdanbreen

Nick Park wrote: »

He's simply responding to your assertions.

He's not responding to any assertion that I made in the first post and that's for sure.

Dublinensis

I believe in heaven, but that doesn't mean that I'm at all sure that that's where I'd be going if I were to be run over by a bus tomorrow.

Perhaps many of the clergy are in a similar position.

Or perhaps they're just aware that, in this part of the world at least, excessive enthusiasm would be likely to make them seem strange.

Nick Park

realdanbreen wrote: »

He's not responding to any assertion that I made in the first post and that's for sure.

No, but you've continued to make other assertions, to which he is responding. This is a discussion forum, not a blog. If you open those doors then you can expect others to go through them.

Mrs OBumble

realdanbreen wrote: »

Or how about the fact that you could count on one hand the numer of uner 25's excluding children that are going to mass.

Have you ever been to a Youth 2000 event? Or a university chaplaincy one?

Might help you take the blinkers off ....

hinault

realdanbreen wrote: »

He's not responding to any assertion that I made in the first post and that's for sure.

I have responded. See my previous direct reply to you.