Star Trek Voyager Characters

MrJones1973

I have been making my way through DS9 lately and im still impressed by it. The characters in particular. They were just so damn interesting. Can the same be said For Voyager? Outside of 7 of 9 and the doctor I found them terrifyingly humdrum. At a stretch you might include Torres.

Part of the problem was casting
The guy playing Chakotay (beltrain?) was one of the worst actors I ever saw. Ditto Ensign Kim and added to that they never really developed him but perhaps fact he couldn't act his way out of a paper bag hindered that

heebusjeebus

Ya, too many bland humans. Tuvok doesn't add anything to the Vulcan crowd either.
I'm currently half way through season 5 and The Doctor is the best character by a mile.

degrassinoel

Janeway and the Doctor are the only two of merit, oh and Nog when he shows up for one show as a Kazon kid.

Janeway was a decent character

The_Valeyard

DS9 was pretty dynamic with characters.


Voyager could have had more more interesting characters if they left the Marquis crew remain more true to their roots and rebellious, rather than 3 episodes to become perfect Mr. Shiny Shoes.

MrJones1973

Never thought much of Janeway. The series excelled at bland characters. Nelix was just a bad idea. Not funny. Harry kim would send you to sleep. Chakotay wasn't a credible human being .

The_Valeyard

I liked The Doctor and Tom Paris.

Really disliked Neelix and Seven.

Although that one episode about Neelix and his homeworld was good.

MrJones1973

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I liked The Doctor and Tom Paris.

Really disliked Neelix and Seven.

Although that one episode about Neelix and his homeworld was good.

Ah come on seven had a well you know that made up for a lot...

The_Valeyard

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Ah come on seven had a well you know that made up for a lot...

That was the problem, this one dimensional sexy borg. Lets find the tightest outfits she can possibly wear.

Although Kes looked pretty hot with her hair long and curls.

MrJones1973

The_Valeyard wrote: »

That was the problem, this one dimensional sexy borg. Lets find the tightest outfits she can possibly wear.

Although Kes looked pretty hot with her hair long and curls.

I thought she was more than a body. She was a foil to Janeway. A much needed foil. Seska was a decent character but not in it often enough
Tom Paris wasn't the worst of them even if he quickly toed the line after three episodes rebellion as a previous poster put it
Kes was bland but star trek doesn't really do women that well. (overall)

Nonoperational

I still thought Voyager was cracking.

MrJones1973

I think it's worth noting Jeri Ryan passed out when she first put on outfit. (true story)

Do you all know the connection between her and Barack Obama? Her ex husband had to pull out of 2004 Senate race after divorce papers disclosure. Sank his campaign. Made it an easy win for Barack.

Samuel T. Cogley

I'd like to pull out of...

TheIrishGrover

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I have been making my way through DS9 lately and im still impressed by it. The characters in particular. They were just so damn interesting. Can the same be said For Voyager? Outside of 7 of 9 and the doctor I found them terrifyingly humdrum. At a stretch you might include Torres.

Part of the problem was casting
The guy playing Chakotay (beltrain?) was one of the worst actors I ever saw. Ditto Ensign Kim and added to that they never really developed him but perhaps fact he couldn't act his way out of a paper bag hindered that

I'm a Voyager hater. Thought it was by far the worst series. But that's another thread and I will say this.

I do believe the main problem here is the very different natures of the two shows: DS9 was a serialised war series (After the Dominion came in anyway) where your actors and characters had time and space to really get their teeth stuck into a storyline. Storylines had consequences that had to be lived with. Characters couldn't just reset after 45 mins. Each character changed to some degree over the years while remaining true. Compare Sisco from episode 1 to the the last episode. Still the same character. Changed. Lived in. But still the same character.
Relationships changed: O'Brien and Bashier's bromance, The Siscos, Kira and Odo etc.

The thing is they were given time to develop. The Big Red Reset Button that voyager used every week like a Knight Rider Episode (Or ANY 80's series) may have made the series more syndication-friendly in that casual viewers could drop in or out at whim. But it stifled the development of the show. How could you develop characters if they went back to zero after 45 mins. It was a real throwback to the 80's after the experimentation of DS9.

Plus, I didn't think ANY of the actors were all that great, to be honest. They weren't terrible and I'm sure that people will point out individual performances that were great, dynamic performances. But these would be very rare and typically grandiose set pieces like The Doctor when they kept on resetting him. Sure, you could compare his scenes to Riker's play one (Can't remember the title). But as good as Riker's play performance is he also had other, "smaller" stories that he played fantastic too. The nice acting in the episode where he fell in love with the person from the androgynous species.

TLDR: Not great actors but to be fair, 80's-ish seriliased nature of show gave cast no room.

MrJones1973

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

I'm a Voyager hater. Thought it was by far the worst series. But that's another thread and I will say this.

I do believe the main problem here is the very different natures of the two shows: DS9 was a serialised war series (After the Dominion came in anyway) where your actors and characters had time and space to really get their teeth stuck into a storyline. Storylines had consequences that had to be lived with. Characters couldn't just reset after 45 mins. Each character changed to some degree over the years while remaining true. Compare Sisco from episode 1 to the the last episode. Still the same character. Changed. Lived in. But still the same character.
Relationships changed: O'Brien and Bashier's bromance, The Siscos, Kira and Odo etc.

The thing is they were given time to develop. The Big Red Reset Button that voyager used every week like a Knight Rider Episode (Or ANY 80's series) may have made the series more syndication-friendly in that casual viewers could drop in or out at whim. But it stifled the development of the show. How could you develop characters if they went back to zero after 45 mins. It was a real throwback to the 80's after the experimentation of DS9.

Plus, I didn't think ANY of the actors were all that great, to be honest. They weren't terrible and I'm sure that people will point out individual performances that were great, dynamic performances. But these would be very rare and typically grandiose set pieces like The Doctor when they kept on resetting him. Sure, you could compare his scenes to Riker's play one (Can't remember the title). But as good as Riker's play performance is he also had other, "smaller" stories that he played fantastic too. The nice acting in the episode where he fell in love with the person from the androgynous species.

TLDR: Not great actors but to be fair, 80's-ish seriliased nature of show gave cast no room.

Overall I don't think trek is known for great actors. Patrick Stewart was a rarity. Leonard nimoy too. Beyond that most were work man like. I'm sure they would say good acting looks easy but overall TV actors up to the the mid 1990s were largely just spit out the lines types.The 45 minute stand alone formula didn't encourage depth as you have noted.
Odo wasn't bad but that actor has effectively been playing the same cranky role from Benson to ds9 to Boston legal and made a pretty penny from it I'd say!
Btw there was another trek actor on Benson . For ten marks..

The_Valeyard

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Overall I don't think trek is known for great actors. Patrick Stewart was a rarity. Leonard nimoy too. Beyond that most were work man like. I'm sure they would say good acting looks easy but overall TV actors up to the the mid 1990s were largely just spit out the lines types.The 45 minute stand alone formula didn't encourage depth as you have noted.
Odo wasn't bad but that actor has effectively been playing the same cranky role from Benson to ds9 to Boston legal and made a pretty penny from it I'd say!
Btw there was another trek actor on Benson . For ten marks..

Colm Meaney was brilliant.

Evade

I though Spiner, Siddig, Shimerman, and Picardo were consistently good. Spiner is so good he could (allegedly) fool Patrick Stewart's wife into thinking she was talking to her husband.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQcammV9G1Y

degrassinoel

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Colm Meaney was brilliant.

Shame they didnt give him more to do in TNG, he shone in DS9 alright

MrJones1973

I think Colm Meaney came across as an ordinary human being. I read somewhere that was the intention by the writers but occasionally they would write stories where O'Brien had to suffer. To balance him out. Meaney is another actor whom I feel basically plays himself in role after role.

Quark was well played too.

The_Valeyard

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think Colm Meaney came across as an ordinary human being. I read somewhere that was the intention by the writers but occasionally they would write stories where O'Brien had to suffer. To balance him out. Meaney is another actor whom I feel basically plays himself in role after role.

Quark was well played too.

DS9 had a load of fully fleshed out secondary characters. Lots of interesting people compared to voyagers secondary staff, excluding Seska.


Even the Borg Queen was quite dull.

Reading the actors comments, their on screen behaviour was mandated from up high. Grain of salt and all that

TheIrishGrover

The_Valeyard wrote: »

DS9 had a load of fully fleshed out secondary characters. Lots of interesting people compared to voyagers secondary staff, excluding Seska.


Even the Borg Queen was quite dull.

+1 This.

Think of the recurring secondary characters of interest in Voyager..... Anyone?... Bueller?... Bueller?

Now think of DS9:
Garak (How he was never made a series regular I don't know)
Rom
Nog
Leeta (Mmmmm Leeta)
Martok
Even Cassidy and Vic Fontane (Hey, I liked him )

And that's leaving out the awesome rogues gallery of Dukat, Kai Wynn, Damar, Weyoun.

....... Of course you did have Keiko "My-els" O'Brien

The_Valeyard

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

+1 This.

Think of the recurring secondary characters of interest in Voyager..... Anyone?... Bueller?... Bueller?

Now think of DS9:
Garak (How he was never made a series regular I don't know)
Rom
Nog
Leeta (Mmmmm Leeta)
Martok
Even Cassidy and Vic Fontane (Hey, I liked him )

And that's leaving out the awesome rogues gallery of Dukat, Kai Wynn, Damar, Weyoun.

....... Of course you did have Keiko "My-els" O'Brien

and Morn,

Who could forget the Lissepian Mother's Day Heist of 2365

Evade

TheIrishGrover wrote: »

Garak (How he was never made a series regular I don't know)

Garak is one of my favourite Star Trek characters but I don't thin he would have worked as a series regular. There's only so much mystery you can have around him if he was in every episode they would have run out of material and he wouldn't have been the Garak we all love.

ItHurtsWhenIP

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

...
Btw there was another trek actor on Benson . For ten marks..

Neelix

(h/t to IMDB) :eek::P

MrJones1973

Well done on neelix. When he was with the one with the ears I had some interest in him but after she wisely dumped him he went downhill

MrJones1973

For extra points what two trek actors appeared in a successful non trek blockbuster movie ,though not in same scenes ?

degrassinoel

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

For extra points what two trek actors appeared in a successful non trek blockbuster movie ,though not in same scenes ?

Tuvoc and Chevov? fan fiction film who's name i forget

Evade

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

For extra points what two trek actors appeared in a successful non trek blockbuster movie ,though not in same scenes ?

Robert Duncan McNeil (Tom Paris) and Frank Langella (Minister Jaro, early DS9 character) were both in Masters of the Universe. Does that count as a blockbuster?

degrassinoel wrote: »

Tuvoc and Chevov? fan fiction film who's name i forget

Star Trek: Renegades.

degrassinoel

that's the one, also, pretty sure one of the borg kids was in that too, the elder one.. biological weapon guy

wow, loads of them in it, even the EMH, STC's Kirk and Sulu, Soval from Enterprise, and probably loads of others too
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2621446/

Evade

degrassinoel wrote: »

that's the one, also, pretty sure one of the borg kids was in that too, the elder one.. biological weapon guy

He was. There's another on coming out that has Terry Farrel and Aron Eisenberg in it too but playing different characters.

kefir32

hated DS9, snooze fest of highest proportions. voyager had plenty of faults without doubt and hated neelix, kim, and kes with a passion. On the other hand seven and the doc were strong, janeway too, despite the hypocrisy and histrionics
Year of hell was such a wasted opportunity, with different team at the helm and more creativity and boldness it could have been great. Otherwise a 6/10 overall

Slutmonkey57b

Voyager was much closer to the roots of a star trek show; the federation as unambiguously good guys, with single episode storytelling, where a lot of the "flawed human" which drove ds9's plots had evolved out of society. They had some good opportunities to tell interesting stories, but they didn't always take them. Ds9, however good it was, never felt like a trek show.

Bad acting is all part of the thrill of trek, surely.

The_Valeyard

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Ds9, however good it was, never felt like a trek show.

Probably because it should have been Babylon 5.

*cough*
*cough*

Did I say that?

MrJones1973

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Voyager was much closer to the roots of a star trek show; the federation as unambiguously good guys, with single episode storytelling, where a lot of the "flawed human" which drove ds9's plots had evolved out of society. They had some good opportunities to tell interesting stories, but they didn't always take them. Ds9, however good it was, never felt like a trek show.

Bad acting is all part of the thrill of trek, surely.

To be fair a lot of television acting is poor due to fact that most shows are formulaic or they hired the best looking chick or dude and feck the acting.

Bacchus

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Voyager was much closer to the roots of a star trek show; the federation as unambiguously good guys, with single episode storytelling, where a lot of the "flawed human" which drove ds9's plots had evolved out of society. They had some good opportunities to tell interesting stories, but they didn't always take them. Ds9, however good it was, never felt like a trek show.

Bad acting is all part of the thrill of trek, surely.

My issue with that was though that I'd seen it all before in TOS and TNG. I stuck through Voyager because the concept of being completely alone trying to find a way home added a unique twist to it all (something that ended up being almost entirely a missed opportunity). Enterprise then was just more of the same and that was the last straw for me.

Voyager isn't particularly bad, it's just that it offered very little that was new. It does fail on an extra level though in that it failed so badly to live up to its potential...
- A science vessel with limited resources all alone in a hostile quadrant... fire all the torpedos, we're practically a warship in these parts.
- Maquis side by side with Federation... forgotten after 3 episodes
- Travelling through Borg space... neutered the Borg

They even teased us with what could have been with "A Year of Hell". Give me a season of THAT.

The only thing they followed through on well was having a Borg crew-member (7 of 9).

As for the characters, I'd say they were about on par with TNG. Both had great characters (Picard, Data, 7 of 9, Doctor) but Voyager did have a few extra lame ducks that dragged things down a bit.

DS9 and TOS beat both of those though on the character front.

MrJones1973

Yeah voyager is entertaining on an episode by episode basis but doesn't hang together that well . Trek overall is bad about doing characters in trouble. Most personal problems resolved in 45 minutes. Very few morally ambiguous characters like Balthar on battle star Galactica . You never really viewed quark as that bad for instance

The_Valeyard

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

Yeah voyager is entertaining on an episode by episode basis but doesn't hang together that well . Trek overall is bad about doing characters in trouble. Most personal problems resolved in 45 minutes. Very few morally ambiguous characters like Balthar on battle star Galactica . You never really viewed quark as that bad for instance

Quark wasn't good or bad. Just about profit. Then again no history of Ferengi barbarism or genocides.

Baltar (2003) I think was really your average human, on both sides of good n evil, caught up in a mess he accidentally contributed too.

The_Valeyard

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Quark wasn't good or bad. Just about profit. Then again no history of Ferengi barbarism or genocides.

Baltar (2003) I think was really your average human, on both sides of good n evil, caught up in a mess he accidentally contributed too.

Ah lad, Baltar was far too far to the "Self protection at all costs" side of evil

hytrogen

Two DS9 moments stood out for me were, when Picard shows up and is an arrogant piquer for a few moments owning Cisco over wolf359, way too many chips on that dudes shoulders.. great tense dialogue.
That and the whole Cardassian war tensions

Oh and the nudity the Ferengi brought, great society, great philosophy, great paraphrase comment on Jews and our modern society lustful desires when you dig into the research archives 

hytrogen

hytrogen wrote: »

Two DS9 moments stood out for me were, when Picard shows up and is an arrogant piquer for a few moments owning Cisco over wolf359, way too many chips on that dudes shoulders.. great tense dialogue.
That and the whole kardashian war tensions

Oh and the nudity the Ferengi brought, great society, great philosophy, great paraphrase comment on Jews and our modern society lustful desires when you dig into the research archives

Kardashian??

hytrogen

Deleted User wrote:

Kardashian??

GDI stupid Google keyboard... Cardassians

I'll get my jacket...

Amalgam

Mrwhite1970 wrote: »

I think it's worth noting Jeri Ryan passed out when she first put on outfit. (true story)

Do you all know the connection between her and Barack Obama? Her ex husband had to pull out of 2004 Senate race after divorce papers disclosure. Sank his campaign. Made it an easy win for Barack.

Voyager changed for me when I found out Kate Mulgrew and Jeri Ryan couldn't do face to face scenes, face to face. The mood between them was that bad.

Google about, you'll find a lot of fodder to this, at the time, smouldering feud, between the two. :eek:

helimachoptor

Amalgam wrote: »

Voyager changed for me when I found out Kate Mulgrew and Jeri Ryan couldn't do face to face scenes, face to face. The mood between them was that bad.

Google about, you'll find a lot of fodder to this, at the time, smouldering feud, between the two. :eek:

Really never heard of that!

off to google!

MrJones1973

Im shocked and appalled to hear that!

MrJones1973

But here it is in bold print. She never says kate but its obvious.

http://trekcore.com/blog/2014/11/ryan-mulgrew-feud/

helimachoptor

tbh i always found their on screen chemistry pretty good

The_Valeyard

Tuvok: captain, Seven of Nine has run away again.


Janeway: f*ck it, too much hassle

Woden

hytrogen wrote: »

Two DS9 moments stood out for me were, when Picard shows up and is an arrogant piquer for a few moments owning Cisco over wolf359, way too many chips on that dudes shoulders.. great tense dialogue.
That and the whole Cardassian war tensions

Oh and the nudity the Ferengi brought, great society, great philosophy, great paraphrase comment on Jews and our modern society lustful desires when you dig into the research archives 

While I see the Ferengi as a charicature of aspects of humanity (perhaps negative ones). Let's not go down the road of stereotyping Jewish people in relation to this.

MrJones1973

Voyager was pretty good at stand alone episodes. I haven't watched it in a while so can't think off the top of my head. One thing I liked about voyager was the set was brighter. Deep space nine was very very drab..Reminded me of pubs in rural Ireland or a few **** pubs in Dublin.

The next generation bridge looked like a hotel reception. Voyager got its bridge right at the very least

I loved voyager I have to say, really liked the story of being stranded far away and enjoyed the vast majority of the episodes. TNG I saw lots of but never follows a season even from start to finish like I did with voyager as I was a bit young when it was being shown originally but I'm rewatching from the start now.

I have to say though I don't get the love for DS9, I have only wanted a hand full of episodes and find it very boring, a lot of the enjoyment of Star Trek is the travelling around to new places, finding new technology (which there was a lot of in voyager), battles with unknown aliens etc. The show being set on a space station going nowhere just never did it for me.

Bacchus

Ryann Melted Elf wrote: »

I have to say though I don't get the love for DS9, I have only wanted a hand full of episodes and find it very boring, a lot of the enjoyment of Star Trek is the travelling around to new places, finding new technology (which there was a lot of in voyager), battles with unknown aliens etc. The show being set on a space station going nowhere just never did it for me.

You haven't given it enough time. DS9 is the 'big battles' daddy of the Star Trek universe.

I'm on a run through of DS9 at the moment (on season 3) and I find the continuity of it and the depth to the characters far better than any of the other other modern day Trek shows. The Defiant really helped the show grow too in terms of getting off the station. I am even enjoying the Bajoran stories far more this time around as they are so relevant to the current global situation with terrorism and occupation. The Jem-Hadar storyline is kicking off now too and Worf will be joining soon so it's getting better and better.

Compared to Voyager... they hit the reset button every week. The idea of being stranded rarely exploited or followed through on. It was just like TOS or TNG but with weaker characters and the occasional story that lived up to the setup. It was only when they introduced 7 of 9 and allowed the Doctor to evolve further that the show had characters of real interest and the show actually grew a bit.... but just a bit.