General Ongoing Doctor Discussion

snowflaker

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Hot blonde woman used as a marketing device is how I see it going forward myself.

She's hardly Jessica Alba tbf

martingriff

CastorTroy wrote: »

I wonder which would cause more uproar: changing race, gender or becoming American?

American NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO reach for the pickforks

Is he not Galyfrean

snowflaker

https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/886629218225971200

johnnyskeleton

martingriff wrote: »

American NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO reach for the pickforks

Is he not Galyfrean

Lots of planets have an America

martingriff

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Lots of planets have an America

True I should show more acceptance

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

Wibbs wrote: »

I have an issue with hamfisted gender politicking by the Beeb. End of.

You can "tell them" all you like, but if they're getting a drip drip of "men a bit silly/women always great" you don't think that has an effect? Really? Cast your mind back when women in most media were very rarely heroes and mostly either damsels in distress or comic relief or morality themes dressed up all nice and would you have told young women "Is it so wrong to think you can tell girls that men can be role models too?". I doubt it and you'd be dead right.

All of your issues go back to Moffat, in my opinion. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the BBC asking a show to better represent women, if that did indeed happen. The problem is Moffat, and a lot of others, can't write for women. They can't create realistic female characters and they certainly can't write scripts for them. So what you get is the laziest writing which is basically writing for a man and then putting him in a skirt. You give the woman the male part and you devalue the man by making him an idiot. You see it all the time and I would agree it's a problem but the problem goes back to the issue of diversity behind the scenes. 10 of the 12 episodes in series 10 were written by men.

Now that's not to say all men can't write for women. The recent Wonder Woman film is a perfect example of a male writer getting it spot on. Happy Valley, written by a woman, does a great job of creating female characters who are strong but also flawed, realistic in other words, without putting any of the male characters down. I'd have hope that Chris Chibnall is one of these writers, he's done it well in Broadchurch.

It can be done, but again, to me it seems your issue is with bad writing.

The_Valeyard

snowflaker wrote: »

On occasion

(Waits for "you don't even go here" gif)

So, that's a no.

alchemist33

Wibbs wrote: »

OK then, name a few positive non violent leading male role models in their own series in current media, in TV or film.

I've lost track fo who means what, but McGyver and The Mentalist come to mind.

snowflaker

The_Valeyard wrote: »

So, that's a no.

That's a qualified yes! Didn't look at the Capaldi Doctor watched Matt Smith

pixelburp

The_Valeyard wrote: »

If they make it 'look I'm a woman now, go progress' it will ruin the show. Needs to be doctors a woman, time to stop Daleks. Otherwise they might as well add some breasts to the cyber men while there at it.

That seems like an unfair premise: of course there's going to be attention drawn to the Doctor being female, because it's a big moment even within the fiction of the show. In fact the first time the Doctor goes back in the time it surely MUST be part of the the whole episode because all things being equal the Doctor will encounter problems manifesting her authority. To do otherwise will be incredibly false. But then by your logic this will ruin the show if it actually acknowledges the very narrative it has crafted.

It isn't about putting breasts on cybermen, frankly that's being ludicrous, but if the show is being serious about the Doctor swapping genders then it's only going to figure into the narrative given that 99% of Western history treated women like objects / second class citizens / property. The Doctor will no longer be able to just swoop into any scenario in Earth history and take over but then to do so will just serve as a confirmation bias

TICKLE_ME_ELMO

pixelburp wrote: »

That seems like an unfair premise: of course there's going to be attention drawn to the Doctor being female, because it's a big moment even within the fiction of the show. In fact the first time the Doctor goes back in the time it surely MUST be part of the the whole episode because all things being equal the Doctor will encounter problems manifesting her authority. To do otherwise will be incredibly false. But then by your logic this will ruin the show if it actually acknowledges the very narrative it has crafted.

It isn't about putting breasts on cybermen, frankly that's being ludicrous, but if the show is being serious about the Doctor swapping genders then it's only going to figure into the narrative given that 99% of Western history treated women like objects / second class citizens / property.

This reminds me of the Timeless thread where someone complained there was too much gender/race politics whenever the female and black character went back in time and couldn't just walk around doing whatever they wanted.

I would agree with the idea that in the present day little should be made of the fact it's a woman. The Doctor is essentially a detached sexless alien and that's how it should continue to be written. Although, as mentioned above, if they travel back in time to any point before roughly the 1960's it would be ridiculous not to address the fact that to anyone she's encountering she is a woman.

CastorTroy

But how often did race or gender come into it when the companions travelled to the past? Hard to think of too many hindrances they encountered

Wibbs

alchemist33 wrote: »

I've lost track fo who means what, but McGyver and The Mentalist come to mind.

A failing reboot of an ancient show(where women were usually damsels in short skirts) and a cancelled one.

pixelburp wrote: »

Dr Who has been 'dying' since Eccleston left in 2005.

'Fraid not PB. It was going up and up from the reboot. Tennant was the peak and it slipped a little during Matt Smith's tenure, but still high. Second only to the old Top Gear in the Beebs pantheon of moneymakers IIRC. However the figures have been consistently dropping since Capaldi's turn at the helm. Them's the facts, not conjecture. It was starting to feel stale for the want of a better word. Again IMHO this casting gimmick and yep I see it as a gimmick is an effort to reboot the show along with the new production team and show runner. Maybe even a somewhat cynical one. Think Star Wars reboot with Lucille Skywalker.

So here comes the latest: the actor swaps gender and suddenly this! THIS is the moment the show tanked because its audience of predominantly CHILDREN won't cope with their favourite show being led by a woman! All that merchandising and overseas success will shrivel because this bastion of male heroism has succumbed to that most deadly of threats to civilisation .... gender politics.

Wait and see, but I bet I'll be more right when I say, yeah, pretty much. Oh and it's not just boys who benefit from a good non violent cerebral male role model, but girls too. It does nobody any good when either gender is labeled a sidekick or an idiot. QV the past.

The_Valeyard wrote: »

If they make it 'look I'm a woman now, go progress' it will ruin the show. Needs to be doctors a woman, time to stop Daleks. Otherwise they might as well add some breasts to the cyber men while there at it.

Careful, BBC writers may be reading. Unlikely though, breasts might be seen as "sexist".

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

It can be done, but again, to me it seems your issue is with bad writing.

Oh I have always contended hereabouts that Moffat was great for plot but pretty low rent and clunky when it came to character(men and women for that matter) and fostered writers like him. RTD was far better at character and we saw that from the very first episode of the reboot. He wrote women well too. Still if RTD had gone with a woman after Eccy had left I'd still be thinking WTF? Maybe even moreso as the series was flying up the ratings so it would have looked like an even bigger gimmick. I strongly suspect it would have killed the series dead then and would have been vetoed by all concerned. There's less to lose now I suppose, but I can see it going a similar trajectory to Marvel comic's decision to go more diverse and swap out genders in their comics. Sales fell off a cliff, including within the demographics of the very people they were trying to be inclusive about.

pixelburp wrote:

it's only going to figure into the narrative given that 99% of Western history treated women like objects / second class citizens / property.

You do understand that for "99% of Western history" men were generally treated the same? The vast majority of people were vassals and a high born woman was far above a low born man. A male Doctor Who if he sniffed of being poor would have been ignored too. Though I strongly suspect the Beeb will whitewash the whole women as lesser thing, or actually maybe not, given the previous experience more likely to hammer it home in the usual clunky way.

flazio

When Catherine Tate was announced as the full time companion we thought she'd be a disaster, she's one of the best loved companions out there, when Matt Smith was announced we thought the show might take a dip, it became bigger than ever. So lets just wait and see what she does. Some, including myself struggled to see the Mad man with a box we had come to love over the years once Capaldi came across all grumpy and uncaring, but most soon came round.
The Doctor being a woman was always going to hang over every regeneration so might as well get it out of the way and give her a chance.

Wibbs

CastorTroy wrote: »

But how often did race or gender come into it when the companions travelled to the past? Hard to think of too many hindrances they encountered

Martha when she went back to Elizabethan England IIRC. Her colour was remarked upon. I seem to recall a couple of the female companions getting the woman angle too. That Tennant one where they go back to the 1950's?

Doctor DooM

There's going to be a lot of crappy ranting about this in future, so this is my default position until he returns to being a white man:

I don't care as long as the show is good. I'm an actual fan of Doctor Who and a key tenet (heh) of that is change.

Yourself isit

martingriff wrote: »

Is the who point of been called The Doctor was to not distinguish a gender. As another post said the regeneration process is meant to be lottery you could have 2 heads, a tail, look like other species. So why not another gender. Those who chose to throw there toys out of the box and not watch because WAHHHHHHHHHHHHH the Doctor is a female should have a look at themselves. Now for someone who has a name like James Bond I be saying its a gimmick. Would still watch but be saying it was a gimmick

I don't know enough canon but I don't think the doctor can be a lizard. I'll wait and see. Was hoping for Phoebe what's her face if it was a woman.

My niece tells me that a female doctor (/ time lord) can choose her next regeneration.

corkie

13 Questions for the Thirteenth Doctor

^^^ Shortened link taken from Doctor Who Twitter feed!

Wibbs

flazio wrote: »

When Catherine Tate was announced as the full time companion we thought she'd be a disaster,

Actually I liked her.

when Matt Smith was announced we thought the show might take a dip, it became bigger than ever.

It did. And it didn't. The ratings dropped after Tennant.

So lets just wait and see what she does. Some, including myself struggled to see the Mad man with a box we had come to love over the years once Capaldi came across all grumpy and uncaring, but most soon came round.

And the ratings dropped again.

coffee_cake

Doctor DooM wrote: »

There's going to be a lot of crappy ranting about this in future, so this is my default position until he returns to being a white man:

I don't care as long as the show is good. I'm an actual fan of Doctor Who and a key tenant (heh) of that is change.

Tenet
I like a pun though

Yourself isit

snowflaker wrote: »

https://twitter.com/frankieboyle/status/886629218225971200

Although I support a woman as dr who (see previous posts before this announcement) it looks like all your contributions to this forum were in the last 2 hours.

snowflaker

Yourself isit wrote: »

Although I support a woman as dr who (see previous posts before this announcement) it looks like all your contributions to this forum were in the last 2 hours.

This regeneration is Capaldi era tbf

Doctor DooM

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually I liked her. It did. And it didn't. The ratings dropped after Tennant. And the ratings dropped again.

I believe Matt Smith did huge figures in the States though, and while Capaldi is down, everything is down right now- TV as a medium is slowly dying.

Yourself isit

snowflaker wrote: »

This regeneration is Capaldi era tbf

No. You're here to parade you self congratulatory masturbatory self righteousness.

I know from his posts wibbs is a longtime fan of Dr Who and it's pretty clear that a user called The Valeyard is a fan. Long term fans too - I'm a fan of the new series. I think as a fellow fan they are wrong but you can still get lost and parade your self regard somewhere else.

The_Valeyard

Yourself isit wrote: »

Although I support a woman as dr who (see previous posts before this announcement) it looks like all your contributions to this forum were in the last 2 hours.

It's amazing the amount of new Doctor Who 'fans' since this announcement..... Just PC warriors found a new battlefield.

Yourself isit

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I believe Matt Smith did huge figures in the States though, and while Capaldi is down, everything is down right now- TV as a medium is slowly dying.

Hmm. I assume BBC America is online and Netflix has Dr Who for sure.

It's because he is old. I personally think that's more of a drawback than gender to the modern fan.

This regeneration should be fun though and it might work. Something can be politically correct and still good.

The_Valeyard

Doctor DooM wrote: »

I believe Matt Smith did huge figures in the States though, and while Capaldi is down, everything is down right now- TV as a medium is slowly dying.

I thought we were living in a golden age of TV?

martingriff

Yourself isit wrote: »

I don't know enough canon but I don't think the doctor can be a lizard. I'll wait and see. Was hoping for Phoebe what's her face if it was a woman.

My niece tells me that a female doctor (/ time lord) can choose her next regeneration.

I think they have to be humanoid. I think it has been mentioned (I know especially in Matt Smith episode with Hurt and Baker) that a Time Lord stayed the same person as they wanted it but I think it takes some power

martingriff

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I thought we were living in a golden age of TV?

We are however you can now stream on the auld internet and networks do not take those figures

Yourself isit

Wibbs wrote: »

Actually I liked her. It did. And it didn't. The ratings dropped after Tennant. And the ratings dropped again.

Are you sure about that. Smith was a young doctor and the dynamic worked with Amy pond.

I can't watch the cloying rose/tenant love dovey stuff anymore. She was great with 9 though.