Dublin Bus to cashless?

bk

Walter H Price wrote: »

should have the machines at stops same as luas as well as on the bus

There are about 11,000 Dublin Bus stops, it would cost far too much to rollout and maintain such a network of ticket machines.

Not when pretty much every other country in Europe solved this problem 40 years ago (tickets that you buy in a shop and then stamp/validate on the bus).

With more modern technology of smart cards, either flat fare or tag-on/tag-off is so ridiculously easy to do (and much cheaper then 11,000 ticket machines) and has been done around the world now for more then a decade! At this stage it is just down right embarrassing how far behind the rest of the world Dublin Bus are.

Polar101

V_Moth wrote: »

A significantly better option than going cashless would be to incentivise weekly/monthly/annual tickets, which are currently ridiculously expensive.

Dublin must be one of the few cities where buying a monthly public transport ticket doesn't (necessarily) make sense.

I take the bus daily, but it is cheaper to pay for the fare with Leap card instead of buying a monthly ticket, even with taxsaver discounts factored in. But €132 for a BUS-ONLY monthly ticket is ridiculous.

punisher5112

Bray Head wrote: »

How many of DB's 3,300 staff work in revenue protection?

Not a lot. There is a pool of a certain small number of drivers and few inspectors that work at that permanently but its a farce. Nowhere near enough.

n97 mini

Polar101 wrote: »

Dublin must be one of the few cities where buying a monthly public transport ticket doesn't (necessarily) make sense.

I take the bus daily, but it is cheaper to pay for the fare with Leap card instead of buying a monthly ticket, even with taxsaver discounts factored in. But €132 for a BUS-ONLY monthly ticket is ridiculous.

That's for 30 individual days, no? Works out 4.40 per day. For people using 2 buses or Xpresso it still works out cheaper if I'm not mistaken?

n97 mini

punisher5112 wrote: »

People would get on then tag off at back door but stay on. They try a lot of tricks as to not pay.

That's a certain portion of the population. You either factor them in, or you employ more revenue protection people if that's more cost effective.

D3V!L

Elemonator wrote: »

The Leap card machines are really slow, at least this week. I don't believe in this cashless, its **** for sightseers.

They're slow when the person using it waves their card around in front of it or rubs it frantically over the reader. I've seen people stand there and wonder why their card wont work and the next person that comes along and just holds it there walks away after a 2 - 3 second transaction.

VG31

D3V!L wrote: »

They're slow when the person using it waves their card around in front of it or rubs it frantically over the reader. I've seen people stand there and wonder why their card wont work and the next person that comes along and just holds it there walks away after a 2 - 3 second transaction.

Most people don't do that though, particularly not during rush hour as the majority of people getting the bus are regular users and there aren't many OAPs. 2-3 seconds is still too long. It should be no more than 1 second.

Elemonator

D3V!L wrote: »

They're slow when the person using it waves their card around in front of it or rubs it frantically over the reader. I've seen people stand there and wonder why their card wont work and the next person that comes along and just holds it there walks away after a 2 - 3 second transaction.

I was referring to the problems myself and people behind me in the queue have been having this week on a number of different buses. I hold my card up to the reader and it says "PROCESSING CARD" for much longer than a normal transaction. Seems to be a problem with recently issued student leap cards. Is it possible they are problem prone?

dublinman1990

Phoebas wrote: »

This is a good idea, but while they're at it they should bring in a single standard fare like they have in London. That would make it very easy.

There is talk from the NTA of a flat fare for Dublin Bus regardless of distance travelled which would be great.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/buses-going-cashless-in-bid-to-slash-journey-times-35407633.html

MGWR

Stephen15 wrote: »

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

Great way to increase automobile useage.

bk

MGWR wrote: »

Great way to increase automobile useage.

Sure, reducing dwell time and thus peoples journey times is going to increase car usage! :rolleyes:

VG31 wrote: »

Most people don't do that though, particularly not during rush hour as the majority of people getting the bus are regular users and there aren't many OAPs. 2-3 seconds is still too long. It should be no more than 1 second.

I agree it should be faster, but I do think it will help greatly.

I've told this story before, but I think it is worth repeating.

I was on the bus once and I sighed as I could see about 30 Spanish students at the upcoming bus stop! But I was blown away by how quickly they boarded. It was just a constant stream of beep, beep, beep, beep, as they tagged-on at the right hand validator.

Then about 4 locals boarded, paying either cash or leap with the driver and those 4 people took longer then those 30 spanish students did!

It really drove home to me that day how ridiculously slow paying via driver interaction is. Moving to zero driver interaction flat fare is going to massively improve dwell times and thus journey times.

bk

From the above article:

Discounts and offers could be made for particular journeys, and a single payment charge could be introduced for all public transport journeys made in a set period.

Finally, catching up with what they have been doing in Poland and the rest of Europe for the last 50 years!

They also mention "account based leap cards" which would mean support for contactless debit cards and pay by Android and Apple pay.

Great to see this, though one concern I do have. They seem to suggest that you would have to first open an account to do this. That isn't how it works in London, in London, you can simply use a contactless debit card from almsot anywhere in Europe and it will just work without any initial setup.

This at least as a default option is preferable as it means most infrequent users and the majority of tourists can use it without any troublesome initial setup.

Dyr

Phil.x wrote: »

Dwell time isn't the problem, it's bus stops every 100m.
Remove 50% of bus stops to increase travel time.

Remove 100% and you really improve travel time but that's not what public transport is for

I've timed bus journeys, half the journey time is dwell time. You come across a few tourists then that time shoots up

No driver interaction will make an enormous difference

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

From the above article:

Finally, catching up with what they have been doing in Poland and the rest of Europe for the last 50 years!

They also mention "account based leap cards" which would mean support for contactless debit cards and pay by Android and Apple pay.

Great to see this, though one concern I do have. They seem to suggest that you would have to first open an account to do this. That isn't how it works in London, in London, you can simply use a contactless debit card from almsot anywhere in Europe and it will just work without any initial setup.

This at least as a default option is preferable as it means most infrequent users and the majority of tourists can use it without any troublesome initial setup.

One word of warning regarding the use of an Irish issued Contactless Bank Card in London is the potential exposure to a raft of individual Minimum Charges for both the Contactless ransaction itself,and a further minimum Bank Fee for the "Foreign Currency" element of it.

This could make each £Stg1.50 Busfare quite expensive indeed,something which,as Contactless is rolled out across the UK Public Transport sector,could end up cosing an Irish Person very dearly indeed.

Arcade_Tryer

L1011 wrote: »

BOI have moved to a fixed 1c charge.

Once you pop, you just can't stop.

lawred2

Reduced stops and tag on tag off are the only strategies that should be pursued

bk

lawred2 wrote: »

Reduced stops and tag on tag off are the only strategies that should be pursued

Why? care to elaborate?

Cashless and flat fares will also reduce dwell times and probably even cheaper and easier to implement then tag-on/tag-off.

Corruptedmorals

It's interesting how much faster the newer leap cards are. I got very fed up of mine taking a few seconds to beep while people behind me are trying to push me or are batting at my hand with their card. The new ones are just instant.

Looking forward to stage simplification, cashless, removal of bus stops (if that is ever proposed) and greater acceptance of exiting by centre doors on busses that have them.

VG31

I think the problem of bus stops being too close together is slightly exaggerated. There are some stops that are too close together but they are few in number (at least on the routes/areas I am familiar with). Nearly all the bus stops on my route are spaced fairly well and if one was to be removed it would create quite a walk which would particularly affect elderly people. There are two stops on another route near me which are ridiculously close together but I would have no problem with the stop I get off at being removed as the one before only a slightly longer walk. It's the only bad example I can think of though.

There are a few other bus stops I know of that are a bit close like Aungier Street and Redmond's Hill southbound (Aungier Street being the one that should be removed) but they're still not that bad.

I think the problem is more that buses spend too long at stops rather than too many stops. There are some stops like I mentioned in the first paragraph that are simply far too close together but they are a small minority.

VG31

I'm not convinced that tag-on/tag-off would improve dwell times as it would make getting off the bus slower. Although one positive of it would be that drivers/passengers would have to use the centre doors.

For a real noticeable improvement in loading times buses need to be cashless and have flat fares with zero driver interaction required. Also having validators at the centre doors would make a big difference. Multi-door entry/exit makes a huge difference in dwell times.

punisher5112

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

It's interesting how much faster the newer leap cards are. I got very fed up of mine taking a few seconds to beep while people behind me are trying to push me or are batting at my hand with their card. The new ones are just instant.

Looking forward to stage simplification, cashless, removal of bus stops (if that is ever proposed) and greater acceptance of exiting by centre doors on busses that have them.

Main issue for delay is the old used products being left on the card so it reads them 1st then takes off from loaded credit or pass and so on.

Polar101

n97 mini wrote: »

That's for 30 individual days, no? Works out 4.40 per day. For people using 2 buses or Xpresso it still works out cheaper if I'm not mistaken?

Yes, but I usually spend around €2-€3 on weekdays and a bit more on weekends, so the single fare is the only option for me. My employer only offers monthly tax saver tickets (no annual, that is), which doesn't really help either. I wouldn't mind paying around €100 for a bus/rail monthly ticket, but I think at the moment the monthly tickets are only for people who do 2 full price trips per day, minimum.

---

In any case, if there was a reasonably priced monthly option available, then more people would use them, and that would decrease dwell times as well - no driver interaction and no need for implementing tag-off either.

lawred2

bk wrote: »

Why? care to elaborate?

Cashless and flat fares will also reduce dwell times and probably even cheaper and easier to implement then tag-on/tag-off.

Sure flat fares would be a piece of piss

You'd be punishing those who travel short distances though. Not that I'd care to be honest, I use an annual ticket anyway.

There are too many stops on every route, all too close together. Not much to elaborate on really is there.

bk

VG31 wrote: »

I'm not convinced that tag-on/tag-off would improve dwell times as it would make getting off the bus slower. Although one positive of it would be that drivers/passengers would have to use the centre doors.

For a real noticeable improvement in loading times buses need to be cashless and have flat fares with zero driver interaction required. Also having validators at the centre doors would make a big difference. Multi-door entry/exit makes a huge difference in dwell times.

I do believe tag-on/tag-off would work better then the current setup, it certainly seemed to work extremely well in Amsterdam where I saw it in action.

BTW You only have to tag-off if you don't want to pay the max fare, so many people might not bother tagging off. Also monthly ticket holders, etc. wouldn't need to tag-off.

However I agree completely that flat fare and cashless entry via the front door would likely be quicker again.

But as you rightfully say by far the best option is what they have had in Poland and many other European countries for the past 50 years! Multi-door entry/exit. Once you have used it, you are blown away by the efficiency of it. Bus pulls up to stop, 3/4 doors open, people pour out of every door, people enter very every door, bus pulls away. Honestly it takes no more then 30 seconds per stop. Journey times are SO much faster in Poland and other countries with this system, it isn't even funny.

Fortunately it sounds like we might at least get some of this. It sounds like BRT will almost be this or more accurately the similar Luas model. While the rest of DB routes will be the front door, flat fare, cashless system.

Not perfect, but at least massive strides in the right direction. Specially if they end up actually using the rear door for exit!

bk

lawred2 wrote: »

Sure flat fares would be a piece of piss

You'd be punishing those who travel short distances though. Not that I'd care to be honest, I use an annual ticket anyway.

But rewarding those travelling long distance, generally something you want to encourage on public transport anyway.

Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette. If it is good enough for London, why not here?

In Ireland we seem to have this unhealthy attitude that you can't make a change if it hurts a small number of people, even if the change helps the majority!

In other countries where they introduced flat fares, it actually lead to increased passenger numbers. I'd guess due to decreased complexity and the faster journey times making bus use more attractive.

XPS_Zero

There's a few issues re dwell time:

1. Some stops are too close where the bus is just powering up to speed then slowing again

2. The leap machine taking too long to validate

3. People using cards incorrectly. There needs to be more education on this. I still see people making basic mistakes like tagging it with bank cards or work ID cards behind it.
I've had to help FT card users and leap users who try to SWIPE the card over the bullseye instead of holding it still

4. Driver smart card interaction was always INCREDIBLY stupid defeating one of the main benefits of them. Go cashless AND flat fare we'd probably reduce times by 25%

lawred2

Slightly off topic but the irregularity of Dublin buses is something that should be looked at too. Remember being in Germany and being able to set your clock to the buses. If they arrived at a stop ahead of schedule they would wait at the stop until designated departure time. Dublin bus can be +/- 10 minutes at any particular stage of the route. And they ain't waiting if they are early.

LeinsterDub

VG31 wrote: »

I think the problem of bus stops being too close together is slightly exaggerated.

Missed the 83 yesterday at stop 1616 by about a minute by the time I crossed the road and I checked when the next bus was. Seen it was stuck in traffic and said to myself knowing Dublin Bus/NTA the next stop won't be far but not actually knowing where the next stop was. A short 200 metre sprint and I was standing at 1617 waiting for the bus.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057382414

LeinsterDub

lawred2 wrote: »

You'd be punishing those who travel short distances though. Not that I'd care to be honest, I use an annual ticket anyway.

How many journeys are actually 1- 3 stages?

devnull

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How many journeys are actually 1- 3 stages?

Less than the number of tickets actually sold for 1-3 stage I'd say.