Dublin Bus to cashless?

Stephen15

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

GLaDOS

The problem is the leap card takes so long to use I'm not convinced it will actually reduce dwell times

VG31

I can't see it making any difference to dwell times at the moment. Paying with a Leap card at the driver's ticket machine isn't usually any quicker. There needs to be no driver interaction for any noticeable change.

AlekSmart

Stephen15 wrote: »

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin Bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

This is part of the NTA's quest to improve the Public Transport experience in general.
It is essentially a positive move,BUT it also has a potential serious downside.
The Banks.
As with TfL in London,who have now decided that Oystercard has reached the limits of development,and instead are now fully behind a policy of Direct Contactless Card payment via ones own bankcard,there are concerns that once Direct Contactless payments finally take-off the banks will wade in with per transaction contactless charges.

Currently ,only PermanentTSB offer free contactless card use,with the big Two AIB and BoI,only committing to a postponement of already publicised charges.

The Government,via the NTA really needs to head the Irish Banks off at the Pass,BEFORE any further expansion of Contactless Payment by legislating against per transaction Contactless charging.

The main reason this is now coming to fruition is the Cash vs Card transaction ratio,which is now close to the balancing point between the amount of cash taken in and the cost of handling that cash.

That essentially,is the tipping point.

Cookie_Monster

Would be good, would have to move to Leapless as well by that stage. Direct use of debit cards or phones will be common place by then, if not even smart watches or chips. Tag on/off with no driver interaction needs to become the norm though.

markpb

GLaDOS wrote:

The problem is the leap card takes so long to use I'm not convinced it will actually reduce dwell times

Maybe reduced dwell times aren't the reason for the change? Collecting, counting, securing and managing cash is expensive business. Doing it in coins is even more expensive. Having mechanical parts in the ticket machines is awkward and prone to failure. I'm sure a decent amount of people collect their change from DB HQ which costs staff time.

AlekSmart

VG31 wrote: »

I can't see it making any difference to dwell times at the moment. Paying with a Leap card at the driver's ticket machine isn't usually any quicker. There needs to be no driver interaction for any noticeable change.

Much of the current delay is due to the Drivers Ticket Machine having to be of Dual Configuration,thus having to switch between modes everal times per set of transactions.

If the T.I.M were able to be configured for single mode,then processing speeds would be far more rapid and uniform.

This latest announcement also has to be viewed alongside the NTA's committment to reducing the numbers of fare bands,which could feasibly a two-fare system within the next 10 months.

It is also of some note that all of the current post 2012 Dual Door fleet are pre-wired for two Remote Validators at the Centre Door,indicating that a degree of forethought has already been given to some significant changes ?

ted1

The biggest obstacle is generally tourists but the last few times I've been to London , Barcelona , Lisbon etc I've picked up their leap card equivalents. I think people worldwide are use to cards now fur public transport

VG31

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is also of some note that all of the current post 2012 Dual Door fleet are pre-wired for two Remote Validators at the Centre Door,indicating that a degree of forethought has already been given to some significant changes ?

I though I saw somewhere a while ago that GT1 had been fitted with validators or something like that?

ted1 wrote: »

I think people worldwide are use to cards now fur public transport

Lots of countries just use paper tickets so no validation is required.

Phoebas

This is a good idea, but while they're at it they should bring in a single standard fare like they have in London. That would make it very easy.

loyatemu

The article in the Indo said they would be enabling contactless transactions and simplifying the fare structure.

WRT contactless fees I'd expect them to remain free in the long term or be 1c or something similarly token.

Phil.x

Stephen15 wrote: »

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

Dwell time isn't the problem, it's bus stops every 100m.
Remove 50% of bus stops to increase travel time.

Radio Gold

Good idea and it could help dwell times. It does still surprise me the numbers who pay cash on the buses, even though the leap card is used most of time I am on the bus

Elemonator

The Leap card machines are really slow, at least this week. I don't believe in this cashless, its **** for sightseers.

Bray Head

AlekSmart wrote: »

Much of the current delay is due to the Drivers Ticket Machine having to be of Dual Configuration,thus having to switch between modes everal times per set of transactions.

If the T.I.M were able to be configured for single mode,then processing speeds would be far more rapid and uniform.

This is true, but moving to a fare system where most passengers did not have to interact with the driver at all would be an improvement an order of magnitude greater.

Mrs OBumble

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Would be good, would have to move to Leapless as well by that stage. Direct use of debit cards or phones will be common place by then, if not even smart watches or chips. Tag on/off with no driver interaction needs to become the norm though.

6% of the population cannot read.

I dont know what % don't have bank accounts but am guessing its higher still.

I think you seriously underestimate how hard it will be to get the last 20% off cash.

newacc2015

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I dont know what % don't have bank accounts but am guessing its higher still.

I think you seriously underestimate how hard it will be to get the last 20% off cash.

I imagine the amount without some form of banking is quite small. Our banking figures are distorted as we are some of the higher users of credit unions per capita in the world. AIB have just introduced a free/low cost bank account for low income workers.

Dublin Bus needs to get real to force people off cash. A 20% premium for cash is not enough. I imagine a €4 cash flat fare which is ridiculously high, will force a large majority who refuse to use leap card off it pretty quickly.

IMO one thing that causes delays when I get on the bus is travel passes. Such as OAPs expecting a formal greeting to the bus when they flash their travel pass to the driver. The amount of OAPs who I have seen who can't actually figure out how the NFC card travel cards is ridiculous. It can take an OAP about 30 seconds to validate their card between the rubbing it up and down on the machine so quick it can't be read and them deciding to tell the driver about the machine not working.

I think DB should introduce a fare zone on their travel cards, so people who use the same zones can validate on the right rather than on the drivers machine

Del2005

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

6% of the population cannot read.

I dont know what % don't have bank accounts but am guessing its higher still.

I think you seriously underestimate how hard it will be to get the last 20% off cash.

People will adapt quickly if there is no other option, the same was said of the plastic bag tax and smoking ban.

Davexirl

Why is everything done here half arsed?

When I lived in Sydney back in 2009 you tagged on the bus and then tagged off as you got off, this calculated your fare and then cuts out people having to go near the bus driver.

punisher5112

Davexirl wrote: »

Why is everything done here half arsed?

When I lived in Sydney back in 2009 you tagged on the bus and then tagged off as you got off, this calculated your fare and then cuts out people having to go near the bus driver.

People would get on then tag off at back door but stay on. They try a lot of tricks as to not pay.

Cookie_Monster

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

u seriously underestimate how hard it will be to get the last 20% off cash.

4 or 5 euro cash fare would change minds pretty quickly.

Bray Head

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

6% of the population cannot read.

I dont know what % don't have bank accounts but am guessing its higher still.

The overlap between those with literacy problems and/or no bank account and the 1.2 million entitled to free travel is probably pretty high.

punisher5112

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

4 or 5 euro cash fare would change minds pretty quickly.

Honestly no they would still be on having a go.

Coins only has been in place many many years and yet many try and pay with notes.

Take validator away from door and have the tag on at drivers screen exactly as London does so no more sneaking on and pretending to scan their card. This happens regularly.

Design proper bus stops and cut out the amount of them that are so close together.

Put in the technology for traffic light control to work in favour of bus exactly like luas.

Del2005

punisher5112 wrote: »

People would get on then tag off at back door but stay on. They try a lot of tricks as to not pay.

As opposed to the current practice of telling the driver you are going 3 stages and doing more. As with all things in this country proper enforcement is the solution, no valid ticket fines and turf them out regardless of location or status as discrimination is illegal.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

It is a great move, as long as new faster ticket machines and either flat fare or tag-on/tag-off with zero driver interaction are first implemented.

Also ideally contactless cards and Apple Pay and Android Pay support.

L1011

AlekSmart wrote: »

Currently ,only PermanentTSB offer free contactless card use,with the big Two AIB and BoI,only committing to a postponement of already publicised charges.

BOI have moved to a fixed 1c charge.

V_Moth

A significantly better option than going cashless would be to incentivise weekly/monthly/annual tickets, which are currently ridiculously expensive. Keep the cash option, but have a much simpler reader than current Leap which offers no benefits in terms of time reduction. Have a ticket machine at airports and possibly even at major hotels with special discount tourist daily, multi-daily or weekly tickets.

Integrating the bus network to connect with Luas and Dart lines rather than the triplication of Bus, Luas and Dart all going to the same destination would further cut journey times.

Improve and expand cycling infrastructure and disencentivise car travel to the city centre at all costs.

Unfortunately none of the above will happen due to the various political conflicts they will cause (car parks, local residents, etc...).

L1011

Monthly / annual are already taxsaver incentivised. They are also inflexible. Better weekly products and taxsaver on bulk leap topups would help

Bray Head

Del2005 wrote: »

punisher5112 wrote: »

People would get on then tag off at back door but stay on. They try a lot of tricks as to not pay.

As opposed to the current practice of telling the driver you are going 3 stages and doing more.  As with all things in this country proper enforcement is the solution, no valid ticket fines and turf them out regardless of location or status as discrimination is illegal.

How many of DB's 3,300 staff work in revenue protection?

Mrs OBumble

newacc2015 wrote: »

I imagine the amount without some form of banking is quite small.

There's a difference between having your own account, and using someone else as an agent to receive your welfare payment.

I guess at least in Dublin there's fare capping so the folks who are only given a day's cash face a maximum daily exposure of the fare cap.

I don't know what the proportion of them on disability (so free-travel eligible) vs not is here. But it's not a zero problem.

Walter H Price

should have the machines at stops same as luas as well as on the bus

bk

Walter H Price wrote: »

should have the machines at stops same as luas as well as on the bus

There are about 11,000 Dublin Bus stops, it would cost far too much to rollout and maintain such a network of ticket machines.

Not when pretty much every other country in Europe solved this problem 40 years ago (tickets that you buy in a shop and then stamp/validate on the bus).

With more modern technology of smart cards, either flat fare or tag-on/tag-off is so ridiculously easy to do (and much cheaper then 11,000 ticket machines) and has been done around the world now for more then a decade! At this stage it is just down right embarrassing how far behind the rest of the world Dublin Bus are.

Polar101

V_Moth wrote: »

A significantly better option than going cashless would be to incentivise weekly/monthly/annual tickets, which are currently ridiculously expensive.

Dublin must be one of the few cities where buying a monthly public transport ticket doesn't (necessarily) make sense.

I take the bus daily, but it is cheaper to pay for the fare with Leap card instead of buying a monthly ticket, even with taxsaver discounts factored in. But €132 for a BUS-ONLY monthly ticket is ridiculous.

punisher5112

Bray Head wrote: »

How many of DB's 3,300 staff work in revenue protection?

Not a lot. There is a pool of a certain small number of drivers and few inspectors that work at that permanently but its a farce. Nowhere near enough.

n97 mini

Polar101 wrote: »

Dublin must be one of the few cities where buying a monthly public transport ticket doesn't (necessarily) make sense.

I take the bus daily, but it is cheaper to pay for the fare with Leap card instead of buying a monthly ticket, even with taxsaver discounts factored in. But €132 for a BUS-ONLY monthly ticket is ridiculous.

That's for 30 individual days, no? Works out 4.40 per day. For people using 2 buses or Xpresso it still works out cheaper if I'm not mistaken?

n97 mini

punisher5112 wrote: »

People would get on then tag off at back door but stay on. They try a lot of tricks as to not pay.

That's a certain portion of the population. You either factor them in, or you employ more revenue protection people if that's more cost effective.

D3V!L

Elemonator wrote: »

The Leap card machines are really slow, at least this week. I don't believe in this cashless, its **** for sightseers.

They're slow when the person using it waves their card around in front of it or rubs it frantically over the reader. I've seen people stand there and wonder why their card wont work and the next person that comes along and just holds it there walks away after a 2 - 3 second transaction.

VG31

D3V!L wrote: »

They're slow when the person using it waves their card around in front of it or rubs it frantically over the reader. I've seen people stand there and wonder why their card wont work and the next person that comes along and just holds it there walks away after a 2 - 3 second transaction.

Most people don't do that though, particularly not during rush hour as the majority of people getting the bus are regular users and there aren't many OAPs. 2-3 seconds is still too long. It should be no more than 1 second.

Elemonator

D3V!L wrote: »

They're slow when the person using it waves their card around in front of it or rubs it frantically over the reader. I've seen people stand there and wonder why their card wont work and the next person that comes along and just holds it there walks away after a 2 - 3 second transaction.

I was referring to the problems myself and people behind me in the queue have been having this week on a number of different buses. I hold my card up to the reader and it says "PROCESSING CARD" for much longer than a normal transaction. Seems to be a problem with recently issued student leap cards. Is it possible they are problem prone?

dublinman1990

Phoebas wrote: »

This is a good idea, but while they're at it they should bring in a single standard fare like they have in London. That would make it very easy.

There is talk from the NTA of a flat fare for Dublin Bus regardless of distance travelled which would be great.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/buses-going-cashless-in-bid-to-slash-journey-times-35407633.html

MGWR

Stephen15 wrote: »

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

Great way to increase automobile useage.

bk

MGWR wrote: »

Great way to increase automobile useage.

Sure, reducing dwell time and thus peoples journey times is going to increase car usage! :rolleyes:

VG31 wrote: »

Most people don't do that though, particularly not during rush hour as the majority of people getting the bus are regular users and there aren't many OAPs. 2-3 seconds is still too long. It should be no more than 1 second.

I agree it should be faster, but I do think it will help greatly.

I've told this story before, but I think it is worth repeating.

I was on the bus once and I sighed as I could see about 30 Spanish students at the upcoming bus stop! But I was blown away by how quickly they boarded. It was just a constant stream of beep, beep, beep, beep, as they tagged-on at the right hand validator.

Then about 4 locals boarded, paying either cash or leap with the driver and those 4 people took longer then those 30 spanish students did!

It really drove home to me that day how ridiculously slow paying via driver interaction is. Moving to zero driver interaction flat fare is going to massively improve dwell times and thus journey times.

bk

From the above article:

Discounts and offers could be made for particular journeys, and a single payment charge could be introduced for all public transport journeys made in a set period.

Finally, catching up with what they have been doing in Poland and the rest of Europe for the last 50 years!

They also mention "account based leap cards" which would mean support for contactless debit cards and pay by Android and Apple pay.

Great to see this, though one concern I do have. They seem to suggest that you would have to first open an account to do this. That isn't how it works in London, in London, you can simply use a contactless debit card from almsot anywhere in Europe and it will just work without any initial setup.

This at least as a default option is preferable as it means most infrequent users and the majority of tourists can use it without any troublesome initial setup.

Dyr

Phil.x wrote: »

Dwell time isn't the problem, it's bus stops every 100m.
Remove 50% of bus stops to increase travel time.

Remove 100% and you really improve travel time but that's not what public transport is for

I've timed bus journeys, half the journey time is dwell time. You come across a few tourists then that time shoots up

No driver interaction will make an enormous difference

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

From the above article:

Finally, catching up with what they have been doing in Poland and the rest of Europe for the last 50 years!

They also mention "account based leap cards" which would mean support for contactless debit cards and pay by Android and Apple pay.

Great to see this, though one concern I do have. They seem to suggest that you would have to first open an account to do this. That isn't how it works in London, in London, you can simply use a contactless debit card from almsot anywhere in Europe and it will just work without any initial setup.

This at least as a default option is preferable as it means most infrequent users and the majority of tourists can use it without any troublesome initial setup.

One word of warning regarding the use of an Irish issued Contactless Bank Card in London is the potential exposure to a raft of individual Minimum Charges for both the Contactless ransaction itself,and a further minimum Bank Fee for the "Foreign Currency" element of it.

This could make each £Stg1.50 Busfare quite expensive indeed,something which,as Contactless is rolled out across the UK Public Transport sector,could end up cosing an Irish Person very dearly indeed.

Arcade_Tryer

L1011 wrote: »

BOI have moved to a fixed 1c charge.

Once you pop, you just can't stop.

lawred2

Reduced stops and tag on tag off are the only strategies that should be pursued

bk

lawred2 wrote: »

Reduced stops and tag on tag off are the only strategies that should be pursued

Why? care to elaborate?

Cashless and flat fares will also reduce dwell times and probably even cheaper and easier to implement then tag-on/tag-off.

Corruptedmorals

It's interesting how much faster the newer leap cards are. I got very fed up of mine taking a few seconds to beep while people behind me are trying to push me or are batting at my hand with their card. The new ones are just instant.

Looking forward to stage simplification, cashless, removal of bus stops (if that is ever proposed) and greater acceptance of exiting by centre doors on busses that have them.

VG31

I think the problem of bus stops being too close together is slightly exaggerated. There are some stops that are too close together but they are few in number (at least on the routes/areas I am familiar with). Nearly all the bus stops on my route are spaced fairly well and if one was to be removed it would create quite a walk which would particularly affect elderly people. There are two stops on another route near me which are ridiculously close together but I would have no problem with the stop I get off at being removed as the one before only a slightly longer walk. It's the only bad example I can think of though.

There are a few other bus stops I know of that are a bit close like Aungier Street and Redmond's Hill southbound (Aungier Street being the one that should be removed) but they're still not that bad.

I think the problem is more that buses spend too long at stops rather than too many stops. There are some stops like I mentioned in the first paragraph that are simply far too close together but they are a small minority.

VG31

I'm not convinced that tag-on/tag-off would improve dwell times as it would make getting off the bus slower. Although one positive of it would be that drivers/passengers would have to use the centre doors.

For a real noticeable improvement in loading times buses need to be cashless and have flat fares with zero driver interaction required. Also having validators at the centre doors would make a big difference. Multi-door entry/exit makes a huge difference in dwell times.