Dublin Bus to cashless?

Stephen15

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

GLaDOS

The problem is the leap card takes so long to use I'm not convinced it will actually reduce dwell times

VG31

I can't see it making any difference to dwell times at the moment. Paying with a Leap card at the driver's ticket machine isn't usually any quicker. There needs to be no driver interaction for any noticeable change.

AlekSmart

Stephen15 wrote: »

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin Bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

This is part of the NTA's quest to improve the Public Transport experience in general.
It is essentially a positive move,BUT it also has a potential serious downside.
The Banks.
As with TfL in London,who have now decided that Oystercard has reached the limits of development,and instead are now fully behind a policy of Direct Contactless Card payment via ones own bankcard,there are concerns that once Direct Contactless payments finally take-off the banks will wade in with per transaction contactless charges.

Currently ,only PermanentTSB offer free contactless card use,with the big Two AIB and BoI,only committing to a postponement of already publicised charges.

The Government,via the NTA really needs to head the Irish Banks off at the Pass,BEFORE any further expansion of Contactless Payment by legislating against per transaction Contactless charging.

The main reason this is now coming to fruition is the Cash vs Card transaction ratio,which is now close to the balancing point between the amount of cash taken in and the cost of handling that cash.

That essentially,is the tipping point.

Cookie_Monster

Would be good, would have to move to Leapless as well by that stage. Direct use of debit cards or phones will be common place by then, if not even smart watches or chips. Tag on/off with no driver interaction needs to become the norm though.

markpb

GLaDOS wrote:

The problem is the leap card takes so long to use I'm not convinced it will actually reduce dwell times

Maybe reduced dwell times aren't the reason for the change? Collecting, counting, securing and managing cash is expensive business. Doing it in coins is even more expensive. Having mechanical parts in the ticket machines is awkward and prone to failure. I'm sure a decent amount of people collect their change from DB HQ which costs staff time.

AlekSmart

VG31 wrote: »

I can't see it making any difference to dwell times at the moment. Paying with a Leap card at the driver's ticket machine isn't usually any quicker. There needs to be no driver interaction for any noticeable change.

Much of the current delay is due to the Drivers Ticket Machine having to be of Dual Configuration,thus having to switch between modes everal times per set of transactions.

If the T.I.M were able to be configured for single mode,then processing speeds would be far more rapid and uniform.

This latest announcement also has to be viewed alongside the NTA's committment to reducing the numbers of fare bands,which could feasibly a two-fare system within the next 10 months.

It is also of some note that all of the current post 2012 Dual Door fleet are pre-wired for two Remote Validators at the Centre Door,indicating that a degree of forethought has already been given to some significant changes ?

ted1

The biggest obstacle is generally tourists but the last few times I've been to London , Barcelona , Lisbon etc I've picked up their leap card equivalents. I think people worldwide are use to cards now fur public transport

VG31

AlekSmart wrote: »

It is also of some note that all of the current post 2012 Dual Door fleet are pre-wired for two Remote Validators at the Centre Door,indicating that a degree of forethought has already been given to some significant changes ?

I though I saw somewhere a while ago that GT1 had been fitted with validators or something like that?

ted1 wrote: »

I think people worldwide are use to cards now fur public transport

Lots of countries just use paper tickets so no validation is required.

Phoebas

This is a good idea, but while they're at it they should bring in a single standard fare like they have in London. That would make it very easy.

loyatemu

The article in the Indo said they would be enabling contactless transactions and simplifying the fare structure.

WRT contactless fees I'd expect them to remain free in the long term or be 1c or something similarly token.

Phil.x

Stephen15 wrote: »

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

Dwell time isn't the problem, it's bus stops every 100m.
Remove 50% of bus stops to increase travel time.

Radio Gold

Good idea and it could help dwell times. It does still surprise me the numbers who pay cash on the buses, even though the leap card is used most of time I am on the bus

Elemonator

The Leap card machines are really slow, at least this week. I don't believe in this cashless, its **** for sightseers.

Bray Head

AlekSmart wrote: »

Much of the current delay is due to the Drivers Ticket Machine having to be of Dual Configuration,thus having to switch between modes everal times per set of transactions.

If the T.I.M were able to be configured for single mode,then processing speeds would be far more rapid and uniform.

This is true, but moving to a fare system where most passengers did not have to interact with the driver at all would be an improvement an order of magnitude greater.

Mrs OBumble

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Would be good, would have to move to Leapless as well by that stage. Direct use of debit cards or phones will be common place by then, if not even smart watches or chips. Tag on/off with no driver interaction needs to become the norm though.

6% of the population cannot read.

I dont know what % don't have bank accounts but am guessing its higher still.

I think you seriously underestimate how hard it will be to get the last 20% off cash.

newacc2015

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

I dont know what % don't have bank accounts but am guessing its higher still.

I think you seriously underestimate how hard it will be to get the last 20% off cash.

I imagine the amount without some form of banking is quite small. Our banking figures are distorted as we are some of the higher users of credit unions per capita in the world. AIB have just introduced a free/low cost bank account for low income workers.

Dublin Bus needs to get real to force people off cash. A 20% premium for cash is not enough. I imagine a €4 cash flat fare which is ridiculously high, will force a large majority who refuse to use leap card off it pretty quickly.

IMO one thing that causes delays when I get on the bus is travel passes. Such as OAPs expecting a formal greeting to the bus when they flash their travel pass to the driver. The amount of OAPs who I have seen who can't actually figure out how the NFC card travel cards is ridiculous. It can take an OAP about 30 seconds to validate their card between the rubbing it up and down on the machine so quick it can't be read and them deciding to tell the driver about the machine not working.

I think DB should introduce a fare zone on their travel cards, so people who use the same zones can validate on the right rather than on the drivers machine

Del2005

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

6% of the population cannot read.

I dont know what % don't have bank accounts but am guessing its higher still.

I think you seriously underestimate how hard it will be to get the last 20% off cash.

People will adapt quickly if there is no other option, the same was said of the plastic bag tax and smoking ban.

Davexirl

Why is everything done here half arsed?

When I lived in Sydney back in 2009 you tagged on the bus and then tagged off as you got off, this calculated your fare and then cuts out people having to go near the bus driver.

punisher5112

Davexirl wrote: »

Why is everything done here half arsed?

When I lived in Sydney back in 2009 you tagged on the bus and then tagged off as you got off, this calculated your fare and then cuts out people having to go near the bus driver.

People would get on then tag off at back door but stay on. They try a lot of tricks as to not pay.

Cookie_Monster

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

u seriously underestimate how hard it will be to get the last 20% off cash.

4 or 5 euro cash fare would change minds pretty quickly.

Bray Head

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

6% of the population cannot read.

I dont know what % don't have bank accounts but am guessing its higher still.

The overlap between those with literacy problems and/or no bank account and the 1.2 million entitled to free travel is probably pretty high.

punisher5112

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

4 or 5 euro cash fare would change minds pretty quickly.

Honestly no they would still be on having a go.

Coins only has been in place many many years and yet many try and pay with notes.

Take validator away from door and have the tag on at drivers screen exactly as London does so no more sneaking on and pretending to scan their card. This happens regularly.

Design proper bus stops and cut out the amount of them that are so close together.

Put in the technology for traffic light control to work in favour of bus exactly like luas.

Del2005

punisher5112 wrote: »

People would get on then tag off at back door but stay on. They try a lot of tricks as to not pay.

As opposed to the current practice of telling the driver you are going 3 stages and doing more. As with all things in this country proper enforcement is the solution, no valid ticket fines and turf them out regardless of location or status as discrimination is illegal.

bk

Stephen15 wrote: »

So I was reading about proposals by the NTA for Dublin bus to go cashless by roughly 2020. I personally would support such a move as it would hopefully reduce dwell times but what other boardsies think of such a move.

It is a great move, as long as new faster ticket machines and either flat fare or tag-on/tag-off with zero driver interaction are first implemented.

Also ideally contactless cards and Apple Pay and Android Pay support.

L1011

AlekSmart wrote: »

Currently ,only PermanentTSB offer free contactless card use,with the big Two AIB and BoI,only committing to a postponement of already publicised charges.

BOI have moved to a fixed 1c charge.

V_Moth

A significantly better option than going cashless would be to incentivise weekly/monthly/annual tickets, which are currently ridiculously expensive. Keep the cash option, but have a much simpler reader than current Leap which offers no benefits in terms of time reduction. Have a ticket machine at airports and possibly even at major hotels with special discount tourist daily, multi-daily or weekly tickets.

Integrating the bus network to connect with Luas and Dart lines rather than the triplication of Bus, Luas and Dart all going to the same destination would further cut journey times.

Improve and expand cycling infrastructure and disencentivise car travel to the city centre at all costs.

Unfortunately none of the above will happen due to the various political conflicts they will cause (car parks, local residents, etc...).

L1011

Monthly / annual are already taxsaver incentivised. They are also inflexible. Better weekly products and taxsaver on bulk leap topups would help

Bray Head

Del2005 wrote: »

punisher5112 wrote: »

People would get on then tag off at back door but stay on. They try a lot of tricks as to not pay.

As opposed to the current practice of telling the driver you are going 3 stages and doing more.  As with all things in this country proper enforcement is the solution, no valid ticket fines and turf them out regardless of location or status as discrimination is illegal.

How many of DB's 3,300 staff work in revenue protection?

Mrs OBumble

newacc2015 wrote: »

I imagine the amount without some form of banking is quite small.

There's a difference between having your own account, and using someone else as an agent to receive your welfare payment.

I guess at least in Dublin there's fare capping so the folks who are only given a day's cash face a maximum daily exposure of the fare cap.

I don't know what the proportion of them on disability (so free-travel eligible) vs not is here. But it's not a zero problem.

Walter H Price

should have the machines at stops same as luas as well as on the bus