Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

cgcsb

There has never been an incidence of over provison of public transport infrastructure in Ireland. It's not a rational fear to have

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359294#Comment_123359294

It isn't low capacity!

Based on the numbers, it looks like a tram every 8 minutes. 8 minutes is pretty decent walk up and go frequency.

Each tram has the capacity of 4 double decker buses, so it is equivalent of a bus route with a bus every 2 minutes. To put that in context, under BusConnects Cork it looks like the most frequent bus route, the 2, will be every 7.5 minutes, but most are over 10 minutes. So it is about 4 times that.

Also at an 8 minute frequency, that leaves plenty of space to increase capacity if the demand is there. Easy to increase frequency to 5, 4 or even Dublin Luas level 3 minutes if the demand materialises.

The platforms look to be designed for 40m platforms, which is a good bit longer then Luas started out in Dublin with 30m trams.

This looks like a pretty well specified, even over specified system for a city the size of Cork, well in line with similar sized French cities.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359487#Comment_123359487

That's the peak numbers. We can expect lower frequency off peak. It's about a third of the capacity of what was envisaged under CMATS and based on population growth out to 2040. 2,300 per hour per direction seems off to me given the density of trip generators along the route but let's see. In 15 years or so if/when this might be built, I can't see 2,300 being sufficient.

bikeman1

I really like the route, but being a Dub, I'm not extremely aware of the details of some of the junctions.

But as a PT user looking in, the route really hits a lot of spots that I have had to visit in Cork over the years. And believe it or not in many cases, drove there for no reason other than the bus service in Cork City leaves a lot to desire. A frequent luas changes the whole game.

Having a tram for Kent station, through the city centre is an absolute must. Kent will have 10 minute rail service going through it and IC services as well. A LOT of punters have no problem hopping on a tram outside a station, but would never get the bus. Rail just does that for marginal PT users.

I really hope this gets off the ground. Cork really needs it. Just watch your property value rise if you are lucky to be near the route.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359547#Comment_123359547

As I said, that is just a starting capacity, increase frequency to 4 minutes and you have a capacity of 4,600 PPHPD

Lets put this in context, take the French city of Caen. Quiet a bit bigger then Cork, Caen has a Metro population of 469,000 versus 305,000 for Cork.

Caen has three LRT lines opened in 2019. Though really just one line with some branching either ends.

33m long Citadis trams with a 10 minute peak time frequency. The lines combine in the city center for 5 minute frequency, but then only for a couple of stops.

The three lines have a daily combined ridership of 50,600, just over 2,100 per hour or 700 per hour per line.

The more I look at it, the more obvious the Cork Luas is designed with plenty of growth capacity.

namloc1980

There's going to be several flashpoints and anti Luas campaign hotspots. Wilton Rd is going to be where this becomes majorly controversial. From the maps nearly all the houses will lose a small bit of their front gardens there. No doubt local councillors will be out egging on the protests as well.

Hibernicis

And we'er off…………. 🙄

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2025/04/15/you-couldnt-make-it-up-customers-told-publican-of-plan-to-demolish-his-business-for-cork-luas-route/

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359597#Comment_123359597

They'll clearly buy rolling stock for the proposed capacity. If it's jammers Day 1 they won't have a load of vehicles just sitting around to roll out. Increasing capacity isn't as straight forward as just updating a timetable.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359625#Comment_123359625

The whole section at Churchyard Lane/Maryville is going to be a major flashpoint for protests against the Luas.

JohnnyChimpo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359625#Comment_123359625

"

“What I find absolutely amazing about this is that yesterday’s event was the launch of a public consultation process and they don’t see fit to consult or inform people directly affected by their plans. You couldn’t make it up,” he said.

"

Local Man Angered That He Is Being Consulted As Part Of A Consultation Process

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359631#Comment_123359631

They can buy new rolling stock, just like they did with the Luas in Dublin.

That is the beauty of using highly standard tram system that is used in cities all over Europe. For quick and easy to buy new vehicles if needed. Hell they could even use some of the trams from Dublin. The Red line uses 40m trams which should be compatible.

This really does look like it has more capacity then Cork needs. It will be busy, but nowhere near that madness of Luas in Dublin.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359670#Comment_123359670

Lets see in 15 years or so. Hopefully it can get off the ground and survive the inevitable public outcry.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359696#Comment_123359696

Unfortunately the public outcry we need to worry about is building it in the first place!

This looks like it has plenty of capacity, even over capacity. It basically looks to be built to Luas Red Line specs and that carries 140,000 per day! Capacity will be fine, the challenge will be getting it built.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123357791#Comment_123357791

Do you mean the Rochestown link should actually connect up as far as Well Road so that it is a loop?

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359650#Comment_123359650

"Man who doesn't collect the post at his business very often angered by not being aware of content of letters sent to his business." I actually know Con: I used to be a regular at his namesake pub on the Coal Quay long ago, so I do have some sympathy for him, but he can’t have not known that his premises was on one of the shortlisted routes.

Regarding Wilton Road, it's about 1.4 metres of the end of the front garden for every premises/house along the road, plus temporary possession of about another metre sitting construction.

I know people there, and they aren't ecstatic with it, but the difference now is that they think that losing a small strip of land is an acceptable sacrifice for the benefit of having a light rail stop on their street. The previous "outcry" was about a much bigger land take (up to 8 m when separate bus and tram lanes were being proposed) carved out of just one side of the street. At the time I also agreed that this was unjust, as all the pain was being landed on the houses on just one side of the street. The new design is reasonable and, more importantly, it applies to everyone more or less equally.

Churchyard Lane shouldn't be an issue at all, as the housing developments are set back from the road with perimeter walls: the few houses on the lane that open directly onto the street are already plagued by car traffic; trams are quiter and cleaner. The pub could be rebuilt, and on a new build it could make much better use of the site (right now, the converted cottages are a very poor use of space)

cgcsb

So there'll be spare capacity on the day it opens, great. A first in Ireland, usually schemes are heaving on day one and completely unusable due to overcrowding within 10 years like Dublin luas and DART which have all had capacity upgrades within a decade of opening

BagofWeed

KrisW1001 .. Appreciate the reply and you obviously know your stuff but there's no talking to me when it comes to Cork city traffic lights, they are the bane of many a people here.

I've been on many a tram and straßenbahn though that go by roundabouts and there never seemed to be any issues.

DylanQuestion

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359717#Comment_123359717

Nope, that would never happen with the amount of widening would have to go on on Rochestown Road. The link to Rochestown should be via a bridge to Jacob’s Island, and the Douglas link should be the 1-2km down Well Road to the village. It could do a loop like Ballincollig using Old Carrigaline Road, Carrigaline Road and Douglas Relief Road

BagofWeed

I like how the stops are spaced out, that should keep the Luas moving and should ensure that it gets through the city centre in an efficient manner.

LambshankRedemption

I am really surprised no-one has mentioned the ~10 90 degree turns on that route map. That means the tram has to slow to a crawl as it gets around the turn and really slows down the journey.

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123360102#Comment_123360102

I fail to see the issue with that, given the dozens of cities in Europe with tram networks, including the networks in Bergen (Norway), Frankfurt (Germany) or Graz (Austria) that I have personally used. I think the term LUAS is causing a bit of confusion here, making it seem as if the Cork system is going to be the type of "Temu pre-metro" we see in Dublin when the plans look more like a classic tram network, akin to what you'd see in the cities I've mentioned.

And just to be clear, the Bergen system, Bybanen, is a newly built system, having only opened in 2010, so it's not as if it's some built-in anachronism either.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359971#Comment_123359971

In fairness, that wasn't really the case with DART, it opened busy, but not overcrowded. It was 21 years later that the DART platforms were extended.

Dublin Luas is more the one that they underestimate day one popularity. But even then it was designed with expansion in mind. While it opened with 30m trams, the platforms were designed to take 40m ones, so they could upgrade to that.

As far as I can tell, it looks like the Cork Luas is designed to the same standard as the red line Luas with 40m platforms. For those who don't know, the red line is the busiest transport line in Ireland, it carries more passengers daily then either the Green line or the DART!

Obviously Cork won't have or need Red line levels of frequency day one (maybe ever!), but it has the ability if need be. This actually very pleasantly surprises me. They could have easily gone with just 30m platforms for a smaller city like Cork. It feels like they are implementing lessons learned from Dublin Luas.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123360151#Comment_123360151

Is this the tram map you are referring to Bergin:http://calurbanist.com/wp-content/uploads/bergen.png

It has 3 right hand turns.

The Cork route has 10.

I think the term LUAS is causing a bit of confusion here, making it seem as if the Cork system is going to be the type of "Temu pre-metro" we see in Dublin when the plans look more like a classic tram network, akin to what you'd see in the cities I've mentioned.

Thats, frankly a bizarre take. I

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123360196#Comment_123360196

Take a look at the Tram network in Caen in France, only opened in 2019. The Line T1 has about 15 90 degree turns.

https://transitapp.com/en/region/caen/twisto/tram-t1

BTW That Bergen Tram map you link to is a stylised, "straightened out" transit map, the actual real lines are far more complex on the ground. I count more then a dozen 90 degree turns on the line 1 :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergen_Light_Rail#/media/File:Karte_Stadtbahn_Bergen_2022.png

Transit maps like you see on the London underground are designed for ease of use and simplicity, they don't represent what the lines really look like.

thomil is correct, I find people don't realise that the two Luas lines in Dublin are more pre-metro like and that isn't normal in most European cities (they mostly use actual Metro's in those cases). LRT lines are usually more twisty and street running in other cities.

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123360196#Comment_123360196

Pro Tip: Don't try to explain a light rail network to someone who's actually ridden the entirety of one of it's lines (Line 1: Bergen Airport to Byparken)

The network has more twists and turns than some soap operas, as well as some pretty steep gradients, with the local geography providing some major engineering challenges. By comparison, the Cork line generally has to deal with only mild gradients and only one really tight turn, the hairpin combination from Washington Street to Patrick Street.

Thats, frankly a bizarre take.

Not sure what's bizarre about it. Outside of the city centre, Dublin's Luas runs effectively like a Stadtbahn or Pre-Metro system, on its on segregated right of way, which allows for considerably higher speeds than you'd see on a tram network, or Bybanen for that matter. Check out the Luas Green Line south of Charlemont or north of Broadstone. That's not the type of alignment that a tram would use. The same goes for the Red Line west of Fatima.

Now compare that to the tram network in, say, Graz, Austria. You'll see that it's basically your classic tram network: On-street running, loads of tight turns, including a large number of 90° ones, and a generally very compact network. The termini of the network there are generally very close to the city, whether it's Mariatrost, UKH Eggenberg, Wetzelsdorf, Reininghaus or Andritz.

You'll generally see the same picture in Frankfurt. Tight turns, termini generally close to the city, and loads of on-street running. Granted, you'll see lines like the LUAS there too, but they all have the prefix U, marking them out as pre-metro or Stadtbahn lines. Once again, I know both Frankfurt networks very well, I lived there for ten years!

LambshankRedemption

Pro Tip: Don't try to explain a light rail network to someone who's actually ridden the entirety of one of it's lines

When did I try to explain light rail to you?

You rode the entirety of one of its lines? WOW. We are in the presence of greatness here. Should I be genuflecting?

Don't bother replying, I'm unsubscribing for this thread.

snotboogie

The Bergen network is what Cork should aspire to:

https://youtu.be/Bs-T7bv6qTk?si=tvX8wuNQDb4NR2Gl

Bergen had a very similar population to Cork now when it began construction. Cork City will probably hit 250k at the next census and Bergen was 260k (their municipal areas is much larger than Corks) when it opened in 2011.

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123360414#Comment_123360414

When did I try to explain light rail to you?

Ahem…

Don't bother replying, I'm unsubscribing for this thread.

Says it all, really. But on this, I agree. This conversation serves no further purpose.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123360466#Comment_123360466

Absolutely agree. It's a great system with a lot of really interesting features, I was hugely impressed when I visited back in November 24. Between the paperless (and cashless) ticketing, the distinctive stops, the individual jingles for each stop, and the light-based art installations in the numerous tunnels, it gets a lot of things right, both large and small.

namloc1980

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123359802#Comment_123359802

I'm not so sure about Churchyard Lane being no issue. The proposal calls for the loss of the on street parking outside the houses on the right as you go up the hill and to be relocated to a site on Blackrock Rd. We know from experience that people lose their minds over parking in Cork. Throw in the sudden interest in the architectural heritage of the Venue bar and can see this place being a flashpoint.

snotboogie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123361450#Comment_123361450

To me it looks like their new parking is still on Churchyard Lane, not on the Blackrock Road. They are removing the wall in front of the apartments on Russell Court and entrance to Copperhill and providing parking there.