GOP Repealing ObamaCare ---- WHY?

ECO_Mental

Well the first thing the GOP are at with their complete majority in congress, senate and and Trumpski is repealing Obamacare (apart from trying to not have any eithics :rolleyes:)

What makes this so important for the GOP to prioritize this over jobs security etc, why do they want to take healthcare off about 30 million people and with no plan for any replacement??? In fact to repeal it it could cost the US taxpayer about €330 billion:eek:

What is the GOP's problem with it?

As far as I can see its just because Obama and the Dems introduced it, if its such bad value and a complete f**k up then people wouldn't sign up for it let the free market decide if its good or not? But as it is apparently if you include all children etc people covered under the ACA programme its about 30 million people. I'm sure health care providers wouldn't be happy loosing 30 million customers either.

I know there were teething problems as premiums increased recently but I have read somewhere that they have settled now and even better people health is starting to improve and from the article below they surveyed people in red states.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/09/upshot/obamacare-appears-to-be-making-people-healthier.html

The whole thing baffles me

Saipanne

Have premiums settled at their higher price point, or have they settled back to their previous price point?

ECO_Mental

Well they are settling at their higher price point I assume, but I presume also that they are lower than if you you went out private and if you had a precondition then f*** off.

InTheTrees

Its going to directly effect the rust belt low wage workers that trump relied on to win the election.

PopePalpatine

InTheTrees wrote: »

Its going to directly effect the rust belt low wage workers that trump relied on to win the election.

He'll probably get them to think it's China's/Mexico's fault. :rolleyes:

EDIT: On a more serious note, I can't help but think of how the Tea Party built up steam among working class whites thanks to right-wing astroturfing back when Obamacare was being drawn up. If that astroturfing worked once, why pass up the opportunity to use it again?

jimmycrackcorm

The GOP have no idea what they are going to replace it with. You can be sure that no one will benefit except the very few people with investments in medical insurance companies.

Manach

Not myself on expert on our own, as opposed to the US Health system, but from a mainstream/anti-Trump US conservative site the core issue with the Affordable Care Act is that
"
The Democrats promised something very unlikely: That we’d provide more health-care coverage for more people and spend less money doing it — and that the typical annual health-insurance premium for an American family would decline substantially, by an average of $2,500 a year. The opposite is happening: Premium prices have gone up, and they are expected to go up by 25 percent in the coming year. That’s an average of 25 percent: Some places will see much steeper increases.

"
- http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/441432/why-obamacare-doesnt-work

Thus it is not really much a stretch of the imagination that the standard US taxpayer would not be too keen on this.

realitykeeper

ECO_Mental wrote: »

The whole thing baffles me

Then I shall simplify it for you. Obamacare is a bad idea. Some people may not want to pay for health insurance. Instead, they may wish to save cash to cover health costs in the future. Also, it is better to leave health care and insurance exclusively to the private sector and give people the freedom to decide whether or not they wish to avail of such things.

Saipanne

How was it paid for? Were taxes raised, or?

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

InTheTrees

Manach wrote: »

Not myself on expert on our own, as opposed to the US Health system, but from a mainstream/anti-Trump US conservative site the core issue with the Affordable Care Act is that

Thus it is not really much a stretch of the imagination that the standard US taxpayer would not be too keen on this.

An article from a conservative anti-obamacare site. They've been against it since before it was introduced.

There havent been any 25% increases and neither will there be. Its pre-election fear mongering.

InTheTrees

realitykeeper wrote: »

Also, it is better to leave health care and insurance exclusively to the private sector and give people the freedom to decide whether or not they wish to avail of such things.

So you have experience of the US system before the ACA do you?

It was a mess, premiums were rising substantially every year. The old system mean individuals were completely tied to their jobs because individual plans were unaffordable unless you had an employer contributing.

Fascinating times ahead as the republicans roll back all the reforms. There WILL be trump voters in the east that will die because of this.

johnp001

Manach wrote: »

Not myself on expert on our own, as opposed to the US Health system, but from a mainstream/anti-Trump US conservative site the core issue with the Affordable Care Act is that
"
The Democrats promised something very unlikely: That we’d provide more health-care coverage for more people and spend less money doing it — and that the typical annual health-insurance premium for an American family would decline substantially, by an average of $2,500 a year. The opposite is happening: Premium prices have gone up, and they are expected to go up by 25 percent in the coming year. That’s an average of 25 percent: Some places will see much steeper increases.

"
- http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/441432/why-obamacare-doesnt-work

Thus it is not really much a stretch of the imagination that the standard US taxpayer would not be too keen on this.

I agree, many GOP politicians have consistently stated their position is to repeal Affordable Healthcare act and were returned to Congress on this platform in the last election so it is hardly surprising that this is the action they took.

InTheTrees

johnp001 wrote: »

I agree, many GOP politicians have consistently stated their position is to repeal Affordable Healthcare act and were returned to Congress on this platform in the last election so it is hardly surprising that this is the action they took.

Yes. But the "low information" voters who will be most impacted by the repeal believed trump's promise to replace it with "something amazing".

Now it turns out the republicans have no plans for any replacement but they're going ahead with the repeal. Twenty Million poor people will have their healthcare taken away.

Permabear

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johnp001

InTheTrees wrote: »

Yes. But the "low information" voters who will be most impacted by the repeal believed trump's promise to replace it with "something amazing".

Now it turns out the republicans have no plans for any replacement but they're going ahead with the repeal. Twenty Million poor people will have their healthcare taken away.

I am not sure what you mean by "low information" voters.
If you look at the link provided by Manach above there would seem to be an "information based" reason for supporting political candidates who ran on a platform of repealing the act.
Many voters who believed Obama's promises of affordable healthcare and were disappointed with the reality of rising premiums, penalties and the policies impacts on full-time employment opportunities might have chosen to shift support to candidates promising the repeal of the policy in this election and that would be an information based shift of support.

Kitsunegari

Obamacare was a good start but it's a highly flawed system. Like most things from Obama, the idea was good but it was poorly thought out. Let's see what the GOP want to do to Obamacare before we condemn them. Trump seems to want to keep some of the better aspects of Obamacare so let's not lose the run of ourselves just yet.

FatherTed

We've been hearing from the Republicans about replacing ACA since 2010 and Trump since he's been campaigning. So they've had 7 years to come up with a plan. Where is it? The answer is that they have no idea. In the end they will either repeal it and not replace it leaving big problems for the 20 million or so people it covers. Or they will leave it as is saying it is too hard to handle and will keep blaming the democrats.

Permabear

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Amerika

ObamaCare failed for a number of reasons. We’ve recently been seeing heart-attack level premium increases. Across the country we are witnessing fewer choices as major carriers are fleeing the marketplace because the government-run system is set up in a way that insurers will never be profitable as it forced insurers into providing overly expensive, soup-to-nuts policies that people can’t afford. It failed because the penalties for not getting insurance ($695 per adult) is too low when compared to the skyrocketing premium costs, and far far less than what would be paid for coverage. And it failed because it allowed people to sign up after they got sick, and put off expensive procedures to when they can switch the next year for a better policy in order to pay all the medical bills, then switch back to a cheap policy the following year.

ObamaCare needs to be replaced with a more flexible system that lets insurers offer a wider range of plans so the consumer, not the government, dictates what's best for them. A system that removes the current job-killing mandates that discourage companies from hiring and reducing workers hours. And instead of gearing subsidies to incomes, let those not covered through an employer receive tax credits to help finance their insurance purchases on the open market. And allow insurers to sell policies across state lines which would produce competitive pricing.

Bscan86

InTheTrees wrote:

An article from a conservative anti-obamacare site. They've been against it since before it was introduced.

InTheTrees wrote:

There havent been any 25% increases and neither will there be. Its pre-election fear mongering.

A work colleague of mine has a brother in new York and his health insurance bill has increased by over 50%.

Inquitus

What happens to you in the US if you have no health insurance and get diagnosed with something that requires hospitalisation and/or surgery? I assume you get treatment got get hit with an unpayable bill for same that will attempt to be collected via the full force of the law?

Permabear

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Overheal

Inquitus wrote: »

What happens to you in the US if you have no health insurance and get diagnosed with something that requires hospitalisation and/or surgery? I assume you get treatment got get hit with an unpayable bill for same that will attempt to be collected via the full force of the law?

I went for an MRI last year. Still have a $2k bill outstanding that nobody has called me about. I had applied for sponsorship because I have no ability to pay as I'm in college. Never heard anything back so either they already scrubbed it or they don't care. The radiology department though still calls me every other week for their $250 cut

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

I went for an MRI last year. Still have a $2k bill outstanding that nobody has called me about. I had applied for sponsorship because I have no ability to pay as I'm in college. Never heard anything back so either they already scrubbed it or they don't care. The radiology department though still calls me every other week for their $250 cut

Did you opt to pay the fine rather than get the federal mandated health care insurance? And in your case it seems if they 'scrubbed it,' the cost of your procedure will ultimately be paid by us who buy insurance -- in the form of higher premiums.

InTheTrees

Bscan86 wrote: »

A work colleague of mine has a brother in new York and his health insurance bill has increased by over 50%.

Really? Need a bit more information. When was this? What kind of plan was it?

Permabear

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InTheTrees

Permabear wrote: »

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I answered you. It was a fear piece by a conservative news outlet written last October before the election and it was speculating that premiums would rise 25%.

How do I respond to their speculation except to say it is now the open enrollment period and I'm not seeing premiums' up by 25%.

But you are presumably?

Permabear

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Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Did you opt to pay the fine rather than get the federal mandated health care insurance? And in your case it seems if they 'scrubbed it,' the cost of your procedure will ultimately be paid by us who buy insurance -- in the form of higher premiums.

According to medicare.gov I have an exemption from the fine.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Really? Need a bit more information. When was this? What kind of plan was it?

It's anecdotal, I wouldn't worry much. As is my own experience.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

According to medicare.gov I have an exemption from the fine.

So let me get this straight. You don’t purchase medical insurance – therefore passing the costs for your care onto the rest of us in the form of increased premiums, you don’t pay the fine, yet you go to a college who’s cost are listed at in-state residency of $28,314, and out-of-state residency of $47,296, per year.

Have you ever heard of something called a part-time job?

Permabear

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realitykeeper

InTheTrees wrote: »

So you have experience of the US system before the ACA do you?

It was a mess, premiums were rising substantially every year. The old system mean individuals were completely tied to their jobs because individual plans were unaffordable unless you had an employer contributing.

Fascinating times ahead as the republicans roll back all the reforms. There WILL be trump voters in the east that will die because of this.

Government should have no part in insurance schemes. It is for the greater good that the private sector take care of that.

FreudianSlippers

realitykeeper wrote: »

Then I shall simplify it for you. Obamacare is a bad idea. Some people may not want to pay for health insurance. Instead, they may wish to save cash to cover health costs in the future. Also, it is better to leave health care and insurance exclusively to the private sector and give people the freedom to decide whether or not they wish to avail of such things.

You telling me you can save up $50k+ frequently for a basic operation?

The problem with this "savings" argument is that people weren't doing that in the past and there is little evidence that they would start to do this in the future. Instead, people were forced to declare bankruptcy and not pay their bills, resulting in hospitals and insurance companies eating these costs - which they then passed on to customers.

There is no valid legitimate argument against the fundamental concept of the ACA in terms of requiring universal insurance and subsidising it for people who can't afford it.

FreudianSlippers

Inquitus wrote: »

What happens to you in the US if you have no health insurance and get diagnosed with something that requires hospitalisation and/or surgery? I assume you get treatment got get hit with an unpayable bill for same that will attempt to be collected via the full force of the law?

Depends on the hospital and its ethos tbh; there are certainly some hospitals that do not accept uninsured patients (even some that require you hold their insurance specifically - Kaiser Permanente is an example of this I believe), but many hospitals will do as you say and send the bill to a collection agency.

A colleague's child had a minor surgery in LA and the bill was $50k - insurance co-pay was $400.

FreudianSlippers

realitykeeper wrote: »

Government should have no part in insurance schemes. It is for the greater good that the private sector take care of that.

So you're against federal/state requirements for car insurance then?

Permabear

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InTheTrees

Permabear wrote: »

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You have shown no evidence of 25% premium increases.

You posted a link to a conservative opinion piece from last october that claimed there may be increases.

Permabear

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Inquitus

Permabear wrote: »

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Obamacare is still better than repeal and no replacement, it's not perfect, but it's the best stab at universal coverage the US has tried yet.

Permabear

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InTheTrees

Permabear wrote: »

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You still havent shown 25% increases. And you said you were having to pay 40% extra for your nanny. Presumably you can document that increase?

And how much is it going to increase once the new (amazing!) trump plan comes into existence?

Permabear

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jimmycrackcorm

Permabear wrote:

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I think it will be interesting to see what t the GOP will replace it with. I suspect that the outcome will be worse for millions of people.

vetinari

Health care is a need though, not a want.
Free market economics don't work with them.
Similar to a utility company that collects rent for the use of an essential product, competition is meaningless for these companies.
Without government regulations, people will choose to buy ultra cheap healthcare plans with minimal coverage.
Then when something serious happens, they won't have proper coverage and will have to file for personal bankruptcy.
Pre obamacare, health care bills was the leading cause of personal bankruptcy.

You're going to need some form of single payer system or subsidised health insurance plans to avoid this.
The likes of Aetna have no economic desire to insure some high risk patient unless they can charge them an exorbitant premium.
And even in the case of someone having say cancer, the best free market approach would be to not offer them insurance at all.
There is no way you could collect enough money in premiums to pay for someone's cancer treatment.

ancapailldorcha

InTheTrees wrote: »

You still havent shown 25% increases. And you said you were having to pay 40% extra for your nanny. Presumably you can document that increase?

And how much is it going to increase once the new (amazing!) trump plan comes into existence?

Yes he has. It's in the first page of this thread. Any more of this and you will be sanctioned.

Amerika

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think it will be interesting to see what t the GOP will replace it with. I suspect that the outcome will be worse for millions of people.

I’m pretty sure the final GOP plan will look a lot like this plan, with some tweaking over the next 2-3 months, that was put out in June of 2016.

https://abetterway.speaker.gov/_assets/pdf/ABetterWay-HealthCare-PolicyPaper.pdf

Cartouche

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Well the first thing the GOP are at with their complete majority in congress, senate and and Trumpski is repealing Obamacare (apart from trying to not have any eithics :rolleyes:)

What is the GOP's problem with it?

For starters they hate poor people. Most Obamacare folks would fall into that category

Permabear

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Manic Moran

Obamacare was well-intentioned, but was a very loose band-aid which is starting to unravel. The problem with the healthcare system in the US isn't the root cause that some people can't afford it, but that the whole system costs way too much to begin with. With prices being ridiculously high, those rates are being passed down to premiums, and some can't afford those premiums. ACA didn't, as far as I know, cut any prices, or reduce the costs of healthcare, it merely juggled who paid for it by a combination of the mandate and subsidies. If the costs of healthcare itself were to be reduced, it would become feasible for those who cannot currently afford 'private' premiums to afford reduced premiums.

In this, Trump is arguably looking in the right direction with his recent comments about the pharmaceutical industry. When the Epi-pen shot up in cost, or the HIV pill went from $13 to $500, that wasn't the health insurance companies doing it. But the health insurance companies have to pay them out, and their way of getting their money is through premiums. The root cost of healthcare in the US is out of control, that is what needs to be fixed, not the ACA solution. Now, if Trump's philosophy can be trickled down to the GOP lawmakers as to how this will be achieved, is another matter entirely.

FreudianSlippers

Permabear wrote: »

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Isn't there a bit of number trickery there though?

20 million people have gained health insurance due to the ACA; presumably that constitutes a number of "famil[ies] of four"?

So, the subsidisation has seriously benefited the poor insofar as they now have health insurance whereas previously they didn't.

I'm not arguing that there has been an increase on some groups, but surely the solution is to fix that issue rather than start over?

Permabear

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