GOP Repealing ObamaCare ---- WHY?

MightyMandarin

Rand Paul made this presentation a few weeks back but I think it's relevant and I think he's spot on.

I don't agree with him on a lot of issues. Being a progressive, I think govt. can be an object of good, not bad. But this man shows balls to go against the party narrative, call them out on their bs, and even accept that getting rid of Obamacare as hastily as the GOP is doing is a bad thing, even though he wants rid of it anyway. The current GOP will add $10trillion to the debt, and like he says, he doesn't want anything to do with it.

Like I said, I think Govt. can do more good than bad, but what he says about getting rid of the Dept. of Commerce for example, makes sense. There's tons of waste in the US Govt. but that is just as much the fault of the GOP as the Democrats. Just like he said, Obama almost doubled the natl. debt, but George Bush did the exact same thing.

The ACA is an imperfect system, which does leave a lot of people with expensive premiums they can't really afford. What direction we go in after accepting that state is key.

Do we say 'well get rid of people's insurance and then they won't have the damn premiums to worry about', or do we say 'let's subsidise their premiums even more'? Personally I want a single payer program, as the ACA doesn't go far enough at all, but more subsidies is the best option imo. The problem with the ACA is that it's a Republican-made program, implemented first by Romney in Massachusetts. In its current form it's flawed. That however is the fault of the GOP, not Obama or the Democrats.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

So let me get this straight. You don’t purchase medical insurance – therefore passing the costs for your care onto the rest of us in the form of increased premiums, you don’t pay the fine, yet you go to a college who’s cost are listed at in-state residency of $28,314, and out-of-state residency of $47,296, per year.

Have you ever heard of something called a part-time job?

Well first of all, you're completely out of order. Second of all, I have a job. Third of all, what PT job do you suppose has a salary in excess of $28,314 a year? Taking talking points from your ass again?

As for health insurance it's a case of not being subject to a mandate to buy it. So I don't. Trump and his zombies would call that "smart". True enough, my bills equate to less than annual premiums plus any associated costs incurred under my experiences.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

Well first of all, you're completely out of order. Second of all, I have a job. Third of all, what PT job do you suppose has a salary in excess of $28,314 a year? Taking talking points from your ass again?

As for health insurance it's a case of not being subject to a mandate to buy it. So I don't. Trump and his zombies would call that "smart". True enough, my bills equate to less than annual premiums plus any associated costs incurred under my experiences.

Yeah, I was a bit harsh on you. I apologize for that. And I know you will be paying off ludicrous college loans probably for decades.

But from my perspective I know it can be done. I worked full time at 45 hours a week on average, while raising a family and paying for medical insurance, all while going to college full time (24 credits a year). Got both a BA & MBA. I paid my way in life and didn't stiff anyone, or make anyone pay for me.

Wanderer78

Amerika wrote: »

Yeah, I was a bit harsh on you. I apologize for that. And I know you will be paying off ludicrous college loans probably for decades.

But from my perspective I know it can be done. I worked full time at 45 hours a week on average, while raising a family and paying for medical insurance, all while going to college full time (24 credits a year). Got both a BA & MBA. I paid my way in life and didn't stiff anyone, or make anyone pay for me.

wouldnt it be nice, if your children and grandchildren didnt have to work similar hours just to get by in life? wouldnt it be nice if they didnt have the burden of debt on their shoulders for much of their lives? wouldnt it be great if they could spend more time with you and your partner?

Amerika

Wanderer78 wrote: »

wouldnt it be nice, if your children and grandchildren didnt have to work similar hours just to get by in life? wouldnt it be nice if they didnt have the burden of debt on their shoulders for much of their lives? wouldnt it be great if they could spend more time with you and your partner?

It would be nice if we all found a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. That was my decision in life. And I made plenty of time to be with my family... I'm freakin' Superman. And my kids will be fine... The majority of them actually better off than me.

Wanderer78

Amerika wrote: »

It would be nice if we all found a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. That was my decision in life. And I made plenty of time to be with my family... I'm freakin' Superman. And my kids will be fine... The majority of them actually better off than me.

there effectively is pots of gold around, we need to fundamentally change our economic and financial systems to distribute wealth more evenly. many younger generations are and will be much worse off due to rising debt, we need to make major changes to rectify this.

Amerika

Wanderer78 wrote: »

there effectively is pots of gold around, we need to fundamentally change our economic and financial systems to distribute wealth more evenly. many younger generations are and will be much worse off due to rising debt, we need to make major changes to rectify this.

The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money

Wanderer78

Amerika wrote: »

The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money

why not print your own money, banks do it all the time!

MightyMandarin

Amerika wrote: »

The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money

I don't think I'll ever understand why there seems to be just an empty spot in your brain when it comes to the eco-political spectrum that it goes:
Capitalism->*Blank Space*->Socialism->Communism

It's like the ideas of 'social democracy' or 'European-style capitalism' don't even exist; that the only alternative to American-style capitalism is full-on socialism. There is just no middle ground.

Amerika

MightyMandarin wrote: »

I don't think I'll ever understand why there seems to be just an empty spot in your brain when it comes to the eco-political spectrum that it goes:
Capitalism->*Blank Space*->Socialism->Communism

It's like the ideas of 'social democracy' or 'European-style capitalism' don't even exist; that the only alternative to American-style capitalism is full-on socialism. There is just no middle ground.

Oh come on, the United States is already a semi-socialistic nation. Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicad, SNAP, and much more is already in place and will eventually bankrupt us. If democrats had their way we would be Greece in no time.

Wanderer78

Amerika wrote: »

Oh come on, the United States is already a semi-socialistic nation. Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicad, SNAP, and much more is already in place and will eventually bankrupt us. If democrats had their way we would be Greece in no time.

:eek:

MightyMandarin

Amerika wrote:

Oh come on, the United States is already a semi-socialistic nation. Social Security, Welfare, Medicare, Medicad, SNAP, and much more is already in place and will eventually bankrupt us. If democrats had their way we would be Greece in no time.

You heard it right there folks, the US is a semi-socialistic state.

I'm sorry you've never heard of a little thing called "wealth inequality" and that right now there's millions working 50-60hrs a week for $10.50 who can barely survive, yet a handful of billionaires make more in a year than entire countries do.

But yeah, you're right, the US is basically half-way to Venezuela if you think about it....

Amerika

MightyMandarin wrote: »

You heard it right there folks, the US is a semi-socialistic state.

I'm sorry you've never heard of a little thing called "wealth inequality" and that right now there's millions working 50-60hrs a week for $10.50 who can barely survive, yet a handful of billionaires make more in a year than entire countries do.

But yeah, you're right, the US is basically half-way to Venezuela if you think about it....

We could tax the "rich" at 75% and it would have a trivial effect on overall income inequality, and would do nothing to pay for the debt of our social ills. Tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich.... ya'll sound like some broken record. Newflash: Taxing the rich can't cure everything, amigo.

MightyMandarin

Amerika wrote: »

We could tax the "rich" at 75% and it would have a trivial effect on overall income inequality, and would do nothing to pay for the debt of our social ills. Tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich.... ya'll sound like some broken record. Newflash: Taxing the rich can't cure everything, amigo.

Did I say anything about taxing the rich? Hardly a broken record when nothing's playing there, amigo.

I merely pointed out how there's glaring inequality in your country, yet is 'half-way to socialism' according to you, nothing more.

All I'll say is, I've learned to realise there exists more people on this planet than myself, and while I'm not near the elite, there's a hell of a lot of people below me through no fault of their own. Now I'm not going to live like a monk and give up all my worldly possesions out of guilt, but you can be damn sure that I'll do my best to make the world a fairer place for all for as long as I live on this earth. Why? Not just because I'm a christian, but because it's the right f*ckin thing to do imo.

Unfortunately, despite (presumably going by your examples from your personal life I've read) being many years older than me, you haven't yet reached this stage of maturity and remain stuck in the 'this is mine, mine, mine and f*ck anyone who wants an fair share' mentality. I pity you and people like you, since you make the world a much ****ter place than it should be.

Amerika

MightyMandarin wrote: »

Did I say anything about taxing the rich? Hardly a broken record when nothing's playing there, amigo.

I merely pointed out how there's glaring inequality in your country, yet is 'half-way to socialism' according to you, nothing more.

All I'll say is, I've learned to realise there exists more people on this planet than myself, and while I'm not near the elite, there's a hell of a lot of people below me through no fault of their own. Now I'm not going to live like a monk and give up all my worldly possesions out of guilt, but you can be damn sure that I'll do my best to make the world a fairer place for all for as long as I live on this earth. Why? Not just because I'm a christian, but because it's the right f*ckin thing to do imo.

Unfortunately, despite (presumably going by your examples from your personal life I've read) being many years older than me, you haven't yet reached this stage of maturity and remain stuck in the 'this is mine, mine, mine and f*ck anyone who wants an fair share' mentality. I pity you and people like you, since you make the world a much ****ter place than it should be.

You know nothing about me or what I do for those less fortunate on a regular basis. I work full time and have a part time on weekends at another job. I figured I could join a gym and pay them, or take on a physical part time job and have them pay me. The part time job company is having a massive restructuring and will be laying people off. I went into HR last weekend and told them I don't really need this job and if it will help someone from losing their job who really needs the money, I am willing to resign immediately. My charity is my choice, and don't feel someone needs to dictate to me what I should be doing in that manner. So please save your pity and lecture someone else.

MightyMandarin

Amerika wrote: »

You know nothing about me or what I do for those less fortunate on a regular basis. I work full time and have a part time on weekends at another job. I figured I could join a gym and pay them, or take on a physical part time job and have them pay me. The part time job company is having a massive restructuring and will be laying people off. I went into HR last weekend and told them I don't really need this job and if it will help someone from losing their job who really needs the money, I am willing to resign immediately. My charity is my choice, and don't feel someone needs to dictate to me what I should be doing in that manner. So please save your pity and lecture someone else.

That's noble of you, but the ironic thing is none of that would even need to happen if you lived in a fairer society.

Ireland is far from rosey, but ask Irish people would they rather our country be run like yours, and see how many say yes.

Overheal

How can social security bankrupt the country if the country is borrowing money from it? Bet a dollar that's the major reason they want to shut it down, just to erase the debt owed back to it.

Amerika

Overheal wrote: »

How can social security bankrupt the country if the country is borrowing money from it? Bet a dollar that's the major reason they want to shut it down, just to erase the debt owed back to it.

You’ve heard of the old saying… Rob from Peter to pay Paul (or in this case Congress robbed from OASI to pay DI)? Why do you think they keep upping the age before you can start to receive the money you’ve paid into Social Security? Even the Democrats are finally admitting SS is in dire straits. It will reach a shortfall by 2034. And Social Security is already running a huge deficit to the tune of tens of billions of dollars each year. Social Security, according to the system's own actuaries, is now $32 Trillion in the red. Congress will have to do something, but what? Where do you think they’ll come up with $32 Trillion? And we haven’t even talked about our debt. We’re at $20 Trillion right now and will probably be at $30 Trillion in less that 10 years. And interest rates will be rising. At some point the interest on our debt will approach $1 Trillion per year. Total federal tax receipts are only at $3.3 Trillion annually. How will we ever be able the pay for everything? Our defense spending will probably be made up of sticks and stones, Education will be left up to you mom's and dads, Medicare and Health will be home remedies. Veterans, housing, transportation... forget about it. Sorry Overheal, but the future is very dismal for you in the US. So consider moving after you graduate. And both Democrats and Republicans are to blame.

eire4

Amerika wrote: »

We could tax the "rich" at 75% and it would have a trivial effect on overall income inequality, and would do nothing to pay for the debt of our social ills. Tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich.... ya'll sound like some broken record. Newflash: Taxing the rich can't cure everything, amigo.

Historically the top tax rate used to be as high as 91% and the kind of income inequality we see today simply did not exist in the 1950s when the top tax rate was around that 90% mark. The explosion in income inequality we are seeing today began during the 1980's when Regan dramatically reduced the top marginal tax rate from 70% to 28% and all the presidents since then have done little to change that situation in terms of the top marginal tax rate although it has increased somewhat.

Amerika

eire4 wrote: »

Historically the top tax rate used to be as high as 91% and the kind of income inequality we see today simply did not exist in the 1950s when the top tax rate was around that 90% mark. The explosion in income inequality we are seeing today began during the 1980's when Regan dramatically reduced the top marginal tax rate from 70% to 28% and all the presidents since then have done little to change that situation in terms of the top marginal tax rate although it has increased somewhat.

Tax the rich at 100% then. It will still accomplish nothing.

ECO_Mental

Amerika wrote: »

Tax the rich at 100% then. It will still accomplish nothing.

You are right there Amerika (i just puked:) ) i dont beilve in over taxing the rich but you cant under tax them either!!!!! What is wrong with some one who is working two jobs paying the same tax as some one who earns millions? Everybody pays their share is fair isnt it?

Problem is in the states ye seem to have different priorities in how you want to spend money. You have no problem in spending TRILLIONS in your milltary and in wars but have a massive problem with spending a couple of million in womens health because you have moral issues with family planning....thats f**ked up.

Overheal

Amerika wrote: »

Sorry Overheal, but the future is very dismal for you in the US. So consider moving after you graduate. And both Democrats and Republicans are to blame.

That's the second time in this thread you've been condescending.

Mr.Micro

ECO_Mental wrote: »

You are right there Amerika (i just puked:) ) i dont beilve in over taxing the rich but you cant under tax them either!!!!! What is wrong with some one who is working two jobs paying the same tax as some one who earns millions? Everybody pays their share is fair isnt it?

Problem is in the states ye seem to have different priorities in how you want to spend money. You have no problem in spending TRILLIONS in your milltary and in wars but have a massive problem with spending a couple of million in womens health because you have moral issues with family planning....thats f**ked up.

Indeed. Billions on weapons and bombs to destroy other countries. When it comes to looking after its on needy, there is no money. The British are the same billions for arms and then a big deal the to fund the NHS and Social Security.

BabyCheeses

In order to make a profit from health insurance you require low risk, high cost situations. This means that there is no profit from providing sick people insurance. ACA forced insurance companies to take on unprofitable people. This meant people weren't making as much profit as they could, hence it is bad. It did have problems but this is what happens when you try to mix profit and people's health together.

Amerika wrote: »

Yeah, I was a bit harsh on you. I apologize for that. And I know you will be paying off ludicrous college loans probably for decades.

But from my perspective I know it can be done. I worked full time at 45 hours a week on average, while raising a family and paying for medical insurance, all while going to college full time (24 credits a year). Got both a BA & MBA. I paid my way in life and didn't stiff anyone, or make anyone pay for me.

You are aware that the whole point of insurance is for others to pay for something that would otherwise not be affordable for one person right? If you got sick people would be paying for you and when others get sick you pay for them.

Tony EH

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Indeed. Billions on weapons and bombs to destroy other countries. When it comes to looking after its on needy, there is no money. The British are the same billions for arms and then a big deal the to fund the NHS and Social Security.

Spent a little bit of time in San Francisco and the amount of people on the streets would make your skin crawl. EVERY single street corner. I was informed that many of them were there because the probably couldn't afford bills of some sort, or were suffering from some sort of mental disorder, and their lives fell apart. No State run institutions or support, so it's the streets.

It's a disgusting indictment, especially on a country that has no problem spending obscene amounts of money to start wars around the globe.

Someone once said you judge a country on its ability (or willingness) to look after her most vulnerable. On that measure, America is a very sad picture indeed.

Mr.Micro

Tony EH wrote: »

Spent a little bit of time in San Francisco and the amount of people on the streets would make your skin crawl. EVERY single street corner. I was informed that many of them were there because the probably couldn't afford bills of some sort, or were suffering from some sort of mental disorder, and their lives fell apart. No State run institutions or support, so it's the streets.

It's a disgusting indictment, especially on a country that has no problem spending obscene amounts of money to start wars around the globe.

Someone once said you judge a country on its ability (or willingness) to look after her most vulnerable. On that measure, America is a very sad picture indeed.

When people are poor in America, they are poor. It's a full time job stretching the dollar and virtually impossible to get out of it. Something that has always irked me in life, is the Money spent on arms, often for foreign wars and intervention, yet needy people, healthcare and all the other social issues are treated like the lowest of the low. If a fraction of the arms budgets was spent on bettering social situations for people it might make a massive difference for many, but no better to spend it on the likes of a dozens of smart bombs that cost $500 each. I cannot see that policy changing anytime soon, so the poor will stay poor.

FreudianSlippers

Smart bombs cost a hell of a lot more than $500 each.

#JustSayin'

Amerika

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Indeed. Billions on weapons and bombs to destroy other countries. When it comes to looking after its on needy, there is no money. The British are the same billions for arms and then a big deal the to fund the NHS and Social Security.

Funny, I find it ironic that a lot of people that complain about our defense spending are the first to call 911america when bad things happen.

FreudianSlippers

Amerika wrote: »

Funny, I find it ironic that a lot of people that complain about our defense spending are the first to call 911america when bad things happen.

Seems to be a very gross oversimplification of geopolitics (no surprise). Are you not sure it isn't the US who wants to police the world and requires constant intervention to justify excessive military spending.

This assertion I hear a lot from the blue collar, uneducated people in the US; a misconception that everyone in the world is crying for the US to come and save them.

WWII was a long time ago, maybe move on?

Tony EH

Amerika wrote: »

Funny, I find it ironic that a lot of people that complain about our defense spending are the first to call 911america when bad things happen.

The vast, vast majority of people aren't calling that number.