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The Truth about Obesity
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Because the people who devise their diets use buzzwords like "food reward system", throw in the names of a few hormones to make things sound complicated, talk about the evolution of humans and then discuss the intricacies of an eating plan used by high-performance athletes to drop below 10% bodyfat.
The entire system is of course complicated and chocked full of information.
But someone looking to lose weight doesn't need to know any more than "eat less calories than you burn", in the same way that someone using a computer doesn't need to know more than "press button on keyboard, letter appears on screen".
It is realistically not more complicated than eating less calories. Diets fail because diets are designed to obfuscate this fact.
So people fail because of buzzwords. Wow.
This area of research is all nonsense so?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766253
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15662002
Sleep a factor at all?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10543671
So are you refuting that dysfunction in body fat regulation sytem is not an issue in obese people? It works perfectly well, or there is no such system?0 -
People fail diets because
Lack of willpower/depleted willpower from refusing to eat that bit of food/starving yourself.
High time preferences
Bullshìt health advice (it's insulin and leptin, not calories in vs out which drives weight gain. As the poster above and myself have pointed out previously, your body does not follow the First Law of Thermodynamics. This is not an engineering problem.).
A culture like Ireland where people are heavy/people like to put others down.0 -
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So people fail because of buzzwords. Wow.
This area of research is all nonsense so?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10766253
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15662002
Sleep a factor at all?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10543671
So are you refuting that dysfunction in body fat regulation sytem is not an issue in obese people? It works perfectly well, or there is no such system?
There are other mental and health issues that lead to overeating.
I have a cousin who's daughter has PWS, and they are going to have to constantly manage her appetite, because she won't be able to.
But for a general population issue, it'll be very concerning if there's that many people with such issues leading them to being over weight.
With the increase of food intake over time, one's appetite becomes greater. They have to consciously think of how much they expect themselves to eat, and for it to be less.0 -
The most complicated part of losing weight is the psychological bit; willpower and habit.
Ding ding ding! This is what makes it more complicated. Why do people underplay this so much? It is a tough process because of the above. And that is why so many people fall prey to the gimmicks. I really wish people would just stop with the pat "calories in, calories out" utterances if they are in the same post not even going to recognise the above. "Calories in, calories out" - how's that working out as a slogan?0 -
The reality is many people do need to take action and are obese, mass-marketing for weight loss products/ memberships is present all year round, it's the "bikini body" in the Summer months, like everything it's always there just in different forms.
I don't think people need to buy into fads, but promoting the idea of getting up and losing weight is important, particularity for obesity. We need to normalise healthy living and weight the same way we banned smoking in public places.
Part of the problem is due to the food industry and the diet and fitness industries then are promoted as the solution along with taxes on things like sugar. These are all cynical exercises to raise sales and tax.
I feel that things could be done to improve healthy lifestyles without it feeling repressive or opportunistic. For starters, I notice sugar and salt in things there is no need for them to be in. Then the alternatives to sugar like aspartame are worse.
I think though most people know the difference between good and poor quality food. I would not for instance touch burgers, most sausages, etc. Also I recently had a breakfast cereal and could not eat it because it was way too sweet. There is no need for this.But there is no need or compulsion to follow the herd is there? I stopped doing that decades ago. Now I buy things that go cheaper in the price wars before Christmas, eg the tubs of Heroes, Roses etc and have enough for the year and a turkey when they go down in price.
As for diets and gyms? Digging the garden would work or walking the dog...
Me too. I would not follow the herd unless it was also something I already made up my mind to do. But it is amazing the amount of people who do follow what the media obo commercial interests tell us to. Of course the digging the garden, walking a dog, etc. would be every bit as good as a gym or a diet and would be more sustainable as well. These activities do not support the fitness and diet industry is why they are not mentioned.Yeah but if you're eating sh*te and generally inactive then intermittently gardening or a bit of a walk every day isn't going to even that out.
BuilderPlumber alludes to an agenda, and to be fair the whole fitness and diet thing is a commercialised industry that relies on advertising and the rest of it. However, that fact doesn't negate the reality that western socieities are getting fatter as a result of poor food choices on a regular basis and that this has bad effects on public health.
That isn't something we can shy away from.
The problem is people fall for a lot of what is pushed. The whole chef and cookery industry is pushed at us too and if people are sitting around eating chips and drinking large bottles of coke all day for prolonged periods, then one is going to get extremely overweight.
The food and the fitness industries are overcommercialised and rather than being enemies, they are natural allies. Eat too much and then be told you are 'obese' and then the fitness industry is there to 'help' us. That's how it plays out.
I think the producers need to make better quality foods. Because of the modern rush culture, more and more people are eating processed foods and these often contain awful ingredients. They also often are not very nutritious and people eat other stuff with them like chips, chocolate bars and fizzy drinks. The producers do need to improve the ingredients in processed food imo.It's all about calories in -v- calories out.
That's it. It's not more complicated than that. But that doesn't sell books. To sell books you have to make it sciency and complicated, and even better if you have your little gimmick, like "we should only eat what cavemen ate". Because then the people have to buy your book and have to subscribe to your newsletter, and have to buy a ticket to your talks because you've made the whole thing simple enough for anyone to get into it, but complicated enough that they think they don't fully grasp it and so need constant reinforcement.
The sunken costs fallacy does the rest, and those who understand your gimmick the least will be the most vocal supporters of it, because they don't want to feel stupid in front of their peers.
Anyone who tells you that losing weight is more complicated than eating less calories is either trying to scam you out of money, or has been scammed out of their money.
There are way too many 'cure all' diets out there. They are all scams. Then there are people who just join a gym and are convinced the gym will burn the calories and continue to eat to excess.
The main problem with diets is that they are a downer. People usually set a target. Lose x amount of pounds. When that is done, they quit the diet because the diet is unsustainable longterm. Some diets are downright unhealthy and while they get the weight off, they threaten to bring on other health risks.0 -
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BuilderPlumber wrote: »There are way too many 'cure all' diets out there. They are all scams. Then there are people who just join a gym and are convinced the gym will burn the calories and continue to eat to excess.
The main problem with diets is that they are a downer. People usually set a target. Lose x amount of pounds. When that is done, they quit the diet because the diet is unsustainable longterm. Some diets are downright unhealthy and while they get the weight off, they threaten to bring on other health risks.
I feel something needs to be done to stop encouraging the idea of "Diets." Or at least the perception of what a diet is. Its seen too much as a short term solution, and if it doesn't work, something is wrong with "Diet X," now to try "Diet Y." While in reality it's something more long term that needs to be set.0 -
http://www.newstalk.com/listen_back/13240/31804/17th_November_2016_-_The_Pat_Kenny_Show_Part_3/
About half way through this show we have Dr Andy Hogan, St Vincents Immunology Research Group admitting
*90% of people fail at dieting
* "the immune system is protecting you against weight loss"
To quote calories in/calories out doesn't work beyond 10% of weight loss.
Quack I suppose ffs.
Hold onto to that dogma, when our leading obesity doctors are screaming it doesn't work.0 -
To quote calories in/calories out doesn't work beyond 10% of weight loss.
Expand on that. What do you mean by "doesn't work"? Because it physically has to work unless the person in question has either died or begun to photosynthesize.
There might be something more nuanced going on, like that their body reacts by giving them a powerful, irresistible hunger. Or they become lethargic and thus use fewer calories. But these are important distinctions to make and clarify because rubbish like this is why these discussions always turn into a pointless back and forth.
Calories in < calories out definitely works, if you can sustain it. However, it's pretty clear that most people can't sustain it once they become overweight. So the questions then become why? And what can be done about it?0 -
Dravokivich wrote: »I feel something needs to be done to stop encouraging the idea of "Diets." Or at least the perception of what a diet is. Its seen too much as a short term solution, and if it doesn't work, something is wrong with "Diet X," now to try "Diet Y." While in reality it's something more long term that needs to be set.
Exactly. I hate the phrase "I'm on a diet" or "I'm dieting". We're all on diets.0 -
Maximus Alexander wrote: »Expand on that. What do you mean by "doesn't work"? Because it physically has to work unless the person in question has either died or begun to photosynthesize.
There might be something more nuanced going on, like that their body reacts by giving them a powerful, irresistible hunger. Or they become lethargic and thus use fewer calories. But these are important distinctions to make and clarify because rubbish like this is why these discussions always turn into a pointless back and forth.
Calories in < calories out definitely works, if you can sustain it. However, it's pretty clear that most people can't sustain it once they become overweight. So the questions then become why? And what can be done about it?
Listen to the clip, I'm just an eejit on the internet he is one of our leading obesity doctors working with obese patients, many children every day.
It must work you say? You are applying the first Law of Thermodynamics the trouble is the human body isn't a closed system and there is a rather more tricky second law which deals with entropy, order and irreversibility and a systems tendency towards disorder.
Too long an exposure to an obesogenic environment seems to damage the system which regulates body fat and also seems to damage the immune system both of which inhibit fat loss.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/222384010 -
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the problem with a diet is that at some stage you have to come off it
you need to change your lifestyle in terms of food and exercise and make positive choices for your health and the health of those around you0 -
Listen to the clip, I'm just an eejit on the internet he is one of our leading obesity doctors working with obese patients, many children every day.
It must work you say? You are applying the first Law of Thermodynamics the trouble is the human body isn't a closed system and there is a rather more tricky second law which deals with entropy, order and irreversibility and a systems tendency towards disorder.
Too long an exposure to an obesogenic environment seems to damage the system which regulates body fat and also seems to damage the immune system both of which inhibit fat loss.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22238401
Yep. Posted this earlier in the thread:pumpkin4life wrote: »It's far more complicated than that.
If you eat less (calorie counting) what happens is that the metabolic rate, the amount of calories you burn at rest, slows the fùck right down. A lower metabolic rate, besides making you feel fatigued and cold, also means that weight loss stalls, since your has adjusted its burn rate lower to match the number of calories taken in. Easier to become more depressed, less energy for this reason.
That's the first problem.
The second problem is willpower. Denying yourself food means that you will one day give up and indulge. Hunger and bad thinking is a great way for you to cave in.
I guess having done both myself and seen great results in this and in othesr, I'm increasingly skeptical about calories in/out, especially because your body is a non linear system which doesn't seem to obey the laws of thermodynamics.
But hey, thats my opinion and thats what worked for me. Might not work for others, but considering obesity rates are going up like mad, there's something big to this imo.
And Wibbs:
Oh and for me calories are a a bit of a nonsense. Kinda like BMI. At best a vague guide for the low of brow. In reality they mean feck all when looked at more closely. EG "alcohol has lotsa calories". Eh yeah, of course it does, it burns like feck and you could run your car on the pure form. However your body treats it(basically) like a poison and seeks to excrete it. It doesn't "turn it into fat". You won't, nay can't get fat on vodka and tonic. You get fat on beer from the sugars, the pseudo oestrogens and the sugar laden filthy kebab afterwards.
Plus "calories" from meat are very different to "calories" from cake. Put it another way; test a lump of coal for calories. It'll come back very high in same. Adding powdered coal to your food won't put a single ounce on your arse or gut, no matter how much you add.0 -
Listen to the clip, I'm just an eejit on the internet he is one of our leading obesity doctors working with obese patients, many children every day.
It must work you say? You are applying the first Law of Thermodynamics the trouble is the human body isn't a closed system and there is a rather more tricky second law which deals with entropy, order and irreversibility and a systems tendency towards disorder.
Too long an exposure to an obesogenic environment seems to damage the system which regulates body fat and also seems to damage the immune system both of which inhibit fat loss.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22238401
I'm not going to listen to the clip, I'd need a pair of headphones. I had hoped in the interest of discussion that you might summarize it and then we could deal with the points on their merit rather than just relying on an appeal to authority.
In the absence of calorie intake, and going with your contention that some bodies just won't burn fat, then what is proposed to be powering the brain and metabolic processes in these individuals?0 -
Calories in/ calories out does work for the most part.
Saying that the CI/CO model doesn't work because your body doesn't strictly follow the second law of thermodynamics is wrong. The model doesn't account for all elements of how food is metabolised, hormones, stress, sleep etc.
But it doesn't mean that for most people on the bell curve that being conscious of eating fewer calories than you burn won't work.
I accept that there are studies and various hypotheses that suggest that there's more at play but for the vast majority of people that are overweight, eating less and/or improving food quality such that they're burning more than they consume is what they need to concentrate on in the first instance.
People will always look for something to blame when taking more control of their choices isn't easy.0 -
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beggars_bush wrote: »the problem with a diet is that at some stage you have to come off it
you need to change your lifestyle in terms of food and exercise and make positive choices for your health and the health of those around you
But you don't. A diet isn't something that's 4-8 weeks long.0 -
Diets fail because they're based on this idea of "willpower", "good" and "bad" foods, if you're "good" you'll eat "clean" and lose weight, if you're "bad" you'll "cheat" and stay fat.
They're usually for a predetermined period of time as well - an eight week "body blast" or 4-week "detox plan" that essentially tell you to ignore your own body's individual needs to follow some one-size-fits-all bullsh1t plan that omits carbohydrates and/or demonizes fat and tells you to go cold turkey on foods you are addicted to with no contingency plan. White knuckle through for 8 weeks and then treat yourself!
It's like asking someone to hold their breath for 8 weeks, they won't do it because it feels wrong and scary and against their body's instincts.0 -
Diets fail because they're based on this idea of "willpower", "good" and "bad" foods, if you're "good" you'll eat "clean" and lose weight, if you're "bad" you'll "cheat" and stay fat.
They're usually for a predetermined period of time as well - an eight week "body blast" or 4-week "detox plan" that essentially tell you to ignore your own body's individual needs to follow some one-size-fits-all bullsh1t plan that omits carbohydrates and/or demonizes fat and tells you to go cold turkey on foods you are addicted to with no contingency plan. White knuckle through for 8 weeks and then treat yourself!
It's like asking someone to hold their breath for 8 weeks, they won't do it because it feels wrong and scary and against their body's instincts.
I'd like to extend this a bit.
The other thing people do when they're "on a diet" is throw the whole thing out the window if they slip up. It's not an all-or-nothing process. If you're eating healthy and then pig out on a pizza some day, just start again the next day. Or even start again after the pizza. Don't be too hard on yourself for slipping either. It happens. We're only human after all.
But be aware that if you continue to choose bad eating habits over good, then you're making the decision to stay fat.
Finally, your body and brain need time to adapt to healthy eating. If you're used to eating nothing but sugars and fats then you'll crave them when they stop. But again, this isn't a binary thing. You might slip when the cravings get too bad, but go easy on yourself and work towards reducing these slips. You don't want to end up in a downward spiral of depression and self-loathing.0 -
I'd like to extend this a bit.
The other thing people do when they're "on a diet" is throw the whole thing out the window if they slip up. It's not an all-or-nothing process. If you're eating healthy and then pig out on a pizza some day, just start again the next day. Or even start again after the pizza. Don't be too hard on yourself for slipping either. It happens. We're only human after all.
But be aware that if you continue to choose bad eating habits over good, then you're making the decision to stay fat.
Finally, your body and brain need time to adapt to healthy eating. If you're used to eating nothing but sugars and fats then you'll crave them when they stop. But again, this isn't a binary thing. You might slip when the cravings get too bad, but go easy on yourself and work towards reducing these slips. You don't want to end up in a downward spiral of depression and self-loathing.
That's a good point, but sabotaging a diet opens the door for guilt and shame to take hold and it is really, really hard to draw a line under the binge and start fresh the next day. In my experience, you wouldn't get back on the horse until the following Monday, even if the slip-up happened on a Tuesday. And when Monday comes, if I didn't eat exactly every three hours - and I do mean exactly, like, to the minute - then that, in my ill mind, was cause to terminate the diet. To people like OP that'll sound like a cop-out; a get-out clause which the obese person triggers to allow him to revert back to their old ways, but there is a link between perfectionism and obesity which shouldn't be ignored. You have to be ultra meticulous at the beginning.0 -
Maximus Alexander wrote: »Expand on that. What do you mean by "doesn't work"? Because it physically has to work unless the person in question has either died or begun to photosynthesize.
There might be something more nuanced going on, like that their body reacts by giving them a powerful, irresistible hunger. Or they become lethargic and thus use fewer calories. But these are important distinctions to make and clarify because rubbish like this is why these discussions always turn into a pointless back and forth.
Calories in < calories out definitely works, if you can sustain it. However, it's pretty clear that most people can't sustain it once they become overweight. So the questions then become why? And what can be done about it?
I'm fuzzy on the details but as far as I know, once you get to a certain level of obesity and sustain it for a while, you develop a permanent fat in your cells and it becomes very, very hard to keep weight off. This isn't pseudoscience, it was proper science, it's just been a while since I've read about and I'm too lazy to google it.0 -
I don't know about that Jamie, but I have psoriasis, and sometimes read a bit about cells, immune system, hormone production and so on, and have come across a few mentions of "brown fat" (that seems to have been picked up by diet peddlers so lots of silly links), the more scientific term "brown adipose tissue" would lead to more medical studies.
It's basically the kind of fat used by mammals for hibernation purposes. Babies have more of it to help them along the first few weeks of life, it uses white fat to create heat. Adults retain some, but the details of how much, and how and whether it is still being used are somewhat fuzzy.
Rather than my poor summary if you wish to check out the wiki, it's interesting in its own right, even if there might be no link to obesity problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue
There are a lot of things we still don't understand.
What I would say about the CI/CO debate, is that I as I see my mother shedding the pounds on a long term dietician assisted diet, I wonder about these "plateaux" that she seems to hit on a regular basis. They do not seem to occur when she lapses (in willpower, diet, or exercise), they just occur at random intervals. Her dietician (in France, possibly/probably more regulated than here as regards titles/professions) helps her "kickstart" the weightloss again on a regular basis.
So at a CI/CO pace being equal, there are plateaux.
Surely there is a chemical explanation here, so if there is one for temporary CI/CO effect interruption, why not for longer CI/CO correlation/action.
edit : forgot to mention it seems brown adipose tissue activates with cold, and the relevant quote below :Studies using positron emission tomography scanning of adult humans have shown that BAT is still present in most adults in the upper chest and neck (especially paravertebrally). The remaining deposits become more visible (increasing tracer uptake, that is, more metabolically active) with cold exposure, and less visible if an adrenergic beta blocker is given before the scan. These discoveries could lead to new methods of weight loss, since brown fat takes calories from normal fat and burns it. Scientists have been able to stimulate brown fat growth in mice0 -
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That's a good point, but sabotaging a diet opens the door for guilt and shame to take hold and it is really, really hard to draw a line under the binge and start fresh the next day. In my experience, you wouldn't get back on the horse until the following Monday, even if the slip-up happened on a Tuesday. And when Monday comes, if I didn't eat exactly every three hours - and I do mean exactly, like, to the minute - then that, in my ill mind, was cause to terminate the diet. To people like OP that'll sound like a cop-out; a get-out clause which the obese person triggers to allow him to revert back to their old ways, but there is a link between perfectionism and obesity which shouldn't be ignored. You have to be ultra meticulous at the beginning.
That sort of magical thinking and striving for perfection around food is a common personality trait in a person with an eating disorder. I'd say a high percentage of obese people fall under the Binge Eating Disorder umbrella.
There's probably a physiological component too. Whenever I overeat (hello Christmas), it can set my daily eating habits back by at least a week - I'm always always hungrier the next day, almost as if my body has gotten used to the larger portions and will demand that until I'm back on the healthy eating train for a few days. Sugar is also very very addictive, on a par with crack levels-wise I'd say. That can't be underestimated either.0 -
Mountainsandh wrote: »I don't know about that Jamie, but I have psoriasis, and sometimes read a bit about cells, immune system, hormone production and so on, and have come across a few mentions of "brown fat" (that seems to have been picked up by diet peddlers so lots of silly links), the more scientific term "brown adipose tissue" would lead to more medical studies.
It's basically the kind of fat used by mammals for hibernation purposes. Babies have more of it to help them along the first few weeks of life, it uses white fat to create heat. Adults retain some, but the details of how much, and how and whether it is still being used are somewhat fuzzy.
Rather than my poor summary if you wish to check out the wiki, it's interesting in its own right, even if there might be no link to obesity problems. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_adipose_tissue
There are a lot of things we still don't understand.
What I would say about the CI/CO debate, is that I as I see my mother shedding the pounds on a long term dietician assisted diet, I wonder about these "plateaux" that she seems to hit on a regular basis. They do not seem to occur when she lapses (in willpower, diet, or exercise), they just occur at random intervals. Her dietician (in France, possibly/probably more regulated than here as regards titles/professions) helps her "kickstart" the weightloss again on a regular basis.
So at a CI/CO pace being equal, there are plateaux.
Surely there is a chemical explanation here, so if there is one for temporary CI/CO effect interruption, why not for longer CI/CO correlation/action.
edit : forgot to mention it seems brown adipose tissue activates with cold, and the relevant quote below :
Brown fat is pretty fascinating, but it's only going to confuse this discussion.
It's not energy storage, but fat which contains a protein to uncouple the production of ATP for energy and instead create heat.
It's one of a number of physiological responses to cold stress used by the body (controlled by the hypothalamus to like body fat) along with limiting blood flood to skin and finally shivering. It's effectively out inbuilt radiator which is pretty idle until we encounter a cold stress and not involved in energy storage.
Main store is between shoulder blades I think.
To upregulate it, you need to expose yourself to the cold and feel discomfort; it's pretty active when you start shivering. Gueynet has a good article on it here
http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.ie/2013/08/more-thoughts-on-cold-training-biology.html
I've gone from finding 15C water cold to being comfortable in 10C water for 15 mins no problem, and being able to drip dry. Still a pussy compared to this crew
https://www.theguardian.com/world/gallery/2016/jan/07/cryophile-winter-swimmers-club-in-pictures0 -
Another reason why it's so very hard for obese people to lose weight is the fact that they'll be left with loose skin. This is a very, very taboo subject. It's been given more of a spotlight in recent years, which is good, but I don't think the masses understand the severity of the situation. I mean, you could reach your dream weight and still have an absolute nightmare of a body - perhaps even worse than the body they already have, in terms of aesthetics.
Words can't describe how utterly devastating it is to realise that your body will never be the same as it was before you wandered down this road. Of course, you could refuse the person any sympathy by saying, 'Well, they made their own bed....' but that's short-sighted. Nobody begins over-eating with the intention of becoming obese. It's not a long-term commitment - it's a thousand little short-term solutions which accumulate and result in obesity. It sort of creeps up on you like Jimmy Savile.
Yes, in an ideal world the person might realise, 'Sh*te. I'm gaining weight here. I better sort my sh*t out', but by that stage the horse has very often bolted and the prospect of salvaging anything seems bleak. And when the outcome seems bleak, what happens? They eat because that is the default response to negative emotions and feelings. That's how they cope. It's sad, and the loose skin aspect is even sadder.
As I said, under their clothes they might well look worse than they did before the weight loss. What a huge deterrent that is if your reasons for losing weight in the first place were centered around, say, getting a boyfriend or girlfriend. What man or woman is going to want a partner with a deflated bouncing castle hanging from their gut? That's what goes through the mind, and suddenly weight loss doesn't seem like a great idea anymore. You can tell them about the health benefits until you're blue in the face, but the reality is they don't care and that's because many obese people - certainly the ones under the age of 35 - don't have much of a life to prolong. A 25-year-old's reasons for losing weight are going to be quite different than a 60-year-old's, for instance. The 60-year-old wants to extend their life - the 25-year-old just wants a life!
But the road back from obesity is a f*cking nightmare. It really, really is. You can praise those who do make the trek back (like me, because I'm great) but you shouldn't under any circumstances judge those who haven't done it yet. There are huge physical and emotional obstacles - not to mention the fact that it's a genuine addiction for many, many people - in their way. And it's impossible for a person of a healthy weight to simulate the path back and imagine walking in those shoes. Calories in/calories out is all good and well but in quite a lot of obese cases that's just a stupidly simple solution. It's honestly like the 'Put the brick on the accelerator' bit in Father Ted.0 -
Another reason why it's so very hard for obese people to lose weight is the fact that they'll be left with loose skin. This is a very, very taboo subject. It's been given more of a spotlight in recent years, which is good, but I don't think the masses understand the severity of the situation. I mean, you could reach your dream weight and still have an absolute nightmare of a body - perhaps even worse than the body they already have, in terms of aesthetics.
That's exactly why I think weight loss needs to be promoted as a health choice not an acceptable standard by society. If you don't love your own body it doesn't matter how much skin or weight you do or don't have, that's a psychological matter and needs to be dealt with as such, whereas weight loss needs to be promoted in terms of healthy living. Everything before or after that weightless needs to be dealt with too, just from a different perspective.
The thing about eating disorders is we tend to associate them with "skinny" people. I have never been over weight or even close to being over weight but will never be happy with my figure, the psychological impact is that we can deal with this but changing our body won't necessarily fix it/. This is why I think we need to look at obesity from the same perspective of smoking, we shouldn't be promoting "beach bodies" but we should be promoting weight loss for a longer and healthier life, not necessarily happier, because where there are underlying issues losing weight isn't necessarily going to fix anything.0 -
Another reason why it's so very hard for obese people to lose weight is the fact that they'll be left with loose skin. This is a very, very taboo subject. It's been given more of a spotlight in recent years, which is good, but I don't think the masses understand the severity of the situation. I mean, you could reach your dream weight and still have an absolute nightmare of a body - perhaps even worse than the body they already have, in terms of aesthetics.
Give me strength.
So you agree then that being obese causes mental health issues ?Alf Veedersane wrote: »Calories in/ calories out does work for the most part.
Exactly. But you will have no end of ppl wishing to make the issue more complicated that it is. As I said earlier I see this attitude all the time.0 -
learn_more wrote: »Give me strength.
So you agree then that being obese causes mental health issues?.
Except it doesn't because there's commonly already mental health issues at play. It's like saying shagging dead bodies causes mental health issues mate.
Obesity leads to a deterioration of mental health but is not in itself the cause. The roots go much, much deeper and if you bothered to read the study I posted - this one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2912711/ - then you'd have explored that idea by now.0 -
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Except it doesn't because there's commonly already mental health issues at play. It's like saying shagging dead bodies causes mental health issues mate.
Obesity leads to a deterioration of mental health but is not in itself the cause. The roots go much, much deeper and if you bothered to read the study I posted - this one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2912711/ - then you'd have explored that idea by now.
Thank you very much for forcing me to read this fake piece of scientific garbage that turned out to be nothing more than an advertisement for a food supplement to be used in conjunction with their recommenced diet of fasting completely but taking their supplement just to get in the essential vitamins and minerals.
As soon as I started reading it I knew it was total garbage and forced myself to read it to the end to see what it was all about so I could come back here and ridicule you linking to this article. How anyone could be so naive as to take anything in that article seriously from the get go is beyond me. It's extremely badly written for a start and half of it doesn't make any sense not to mention the number of times it contradicts itself in later paragraphs.
Hammer89, you have just made a total arse of yourself in this thread, for the last time I hope.0 -
I guess the issue with the obese is, they know eating too much is bad, they're told eating too much is bad, yet they just can't stop themselves despite the consequences.
You see it in other walks of life. Here's a great example of someone who just can't stop himself, despite being told it's bad and knowing the consequences...Mod
This is your last warning before I lock the thread and card you. Stop being a dìck in your posts. You may not think you are, but you definitely are.
If you have a problem with this thread warning take it to pm. The thread isn't the place to discuss it.
Make your points without the abrasive, condescending attitude.learn_more wrote: »As soon as I started reading it I knew it was total garbage and forced myself to read it to the end to see what it was all about so I could come back here and ridicule you linking to this article...
...
Hammer89, you have just made a total arse of yourself in this thread, for the last time I hope.0 -
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@Conor74 You have no problem whatsoever with someone supporting his views by linking to an obvious advertisement for a food supplement called "Optifast 70" but you do have a problem with someone calling him out on it.
This is a link from the same poster who started off a post by saying "Let's face it, we don't like obese people..." or something to that effect.
If I'm to be pulled up on pointing this out, if only for the manner in which I did, so then so be it.I guess the issue with the obese is, they know eating too much is bad, they're told eating too much is bad, yet they just can't stop themselves despite the consequences.
The issues isn't about eating too much, it's largely what you are eating. Maybe I should be reprimanded for pointing that out too ?0
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