Junior Infants - Religion

Orion

Confused mum84 wrote: »

Just to clarify by exemption - I mean excused from class I.e. Join another class for the 20 mins religion time .

If only it was just 20 mins religion time but it's not. Religion permeates the whole curriculum in faith based schools. Especially in classes that are preparing for marriage practice - sorry 1st Communion. Then it takes up whole days.

None of which is the point. State funded schools should cater for all - why should any child have to be excluded from a class just to cater for religious indoctrination. As others have said this should be done at home or in after school optional classes.

Walter H Price

Orion wrote: »

If only it was just 20 mins religion time but it's not. Religion permeates the whole curriculum in faith based schools. Especially in classes that are preparing for marriage practice - sorry 1st Communion. Then it takes up whole days.

None of which is the point. State funded schools should cater for all - why should any child have to be excluded from a class just to cater for religious indoctrination. As others have said this should be done at home or in after school optional classes.

Here here , primary school should be be about education not indoctrination , sad that this is still the reality in 2016 in a country that has suffered so much (children in particular) at the hands of the church.

Moonbeam

OU812 wrote: »

My child came home the other day a little upset because teacher ( a late 20s girl from the country) told the kids that they had to have a crib for the baby Jesus, that if they didn't it wouldn't be Xmas. Also, the baby Jesus shares his presents with all the boys & girls around the world through Santa so if he doesn't have a birthday, there's no presents for anyone.

I'm fully aware that a five year old might have taken it up wrong or partially made it up, but I'm pretty annoyed still. I started typing an email to the principle earlier & then stopped as the teacher is going on maternity leave on Thursday next & won't be back until September. (something tells me the timing of the pregnancy was planned quite well).

I managed to assure her that Santa & the baby Jesus are not in cahoots & Santa will be coming anyway.

My child's teacher is unimpressed with Xmas there is no Christmas with out Christ

byhookorbycrook

Educate Together are not the only multi-denom schools, many Gaelscoileanna are multi-d too.

lazygal

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Educate Together are not the only multi-denom schools, many Gaelscoileanna are multi-d too.

Most are religious or inter denominational. The gaelscoil in our area is extremely religious.

OU812

Moonbeam wrote: »

My child's teacher is unimpressed with Xmas there is no Christmas with out Christ

This is a conscious effort on my part. I always write/say Xmas particularly for that reason. I remember at midnight mass one year (before I defected) the priest talking about it & ironically, I'd never put 2+2 together on the whole thing.

Xmas all the way baby !!

mordeith

OU812 wrote: »

This is a conscious effort on my part. I always write/say Xmas particularly for that reason. I remember at midnight mass one year (before I defected) the priest talking about it & ironically, I'd never put 2+2 together on the whole thing.

Xmas all the way baby !!

Xmas is just as bad as Christmas. Why remove the Christ part and leave in the mas(s) bit? It should be XX Day. Or preferably go back to solstice.

OU812

Xmas is more widely accepted. I also substitute "Happy Holidays".

afkasurfjunkie

Xmas is acceptable because it come from the Greek word chi which means Christ.

iamtony

My take on this as someone who is a totally anti church and religion is let them at it in primary school. It teaches morals if nothing else. But I treat the whole religion thing similar to Santa, when they are ready to question it I will give them a straight answer. When my 7 year old asks about God stuff I go along with it as much as it grinds my gears.
One of the main reasons I think it's a good thing for kids is its a very good way for them to deal with death. Yes sweetheart granny's gone to heaven, no the worms won't eat her I swear:-)

lazygal

What's wrong with telling children the truth about death, that the body decomposes and we have the memories?
Are our children without morals because the school doesn't indoctrinated them a small bit?

iamtony

lazygal wrote: »

What's wrong with telling children the truth about death, that the body decomposes and we have the memories?
Are our children without morals because the school doesn't indoctrinated them a small bit?

Eh because they are children and they don't need to know everything like that life is hard enough for them as it is. I'm not here to argue about it but each to there own on that one I guess.

CiboC

lazygal wrote: »

What's wrong with telling children the truth about death, that the body decomposes and we have the memories?

Or even better, that fundamentally what we are made of comes from the heart of a star and eventually our bodies will return there.

lazygal

iamtony wrote: »

Eh because they are children and they don't need to know everything like that life is hard enough for them as it is. I'm not here to argue about it but each to there own on that one I guess.

Nothing hard about knowing how the body works as far as I can see with ours. I don't know how you suddenly tell your kids you don't believe any of the religious stuff but you went along with the heaven bit anyway. I guess if you can square that circle that's your issue.

iamtony

Personally I kinda envy those who believe in God and an after life it must make life a little easier. I never try and push my views on religious matters on people and if my kids grow up believing in a god then good for them I say.
If they want my opinion on it when I'm older then I will give it to them but when they're kids there's no harm in it really plus they get to participate in the milestone events like communions which kids enjoy.

iamtony

lazygal wrote: »

Nothing hard about knowing how the body works as far as I can see with ours. I don't know how you suddenly tell your kids you don't believe any of the religious stuff but you went along with the heaven bit anyway. I guess if you can square that circle that's your issue.

Exactly the same way you tell them about Santy I guess.
It's make believe and telling your kids the dogs in doggy heaven or whatever is a lot easier for them simple as that. Why hurt them more than is nessisary?
My daughter regularly stress's about mine and her mams death so what's the harm in comforting her with a bit if make believe?

rainbow kirby

lazygal wrote: »

My husband is in a sector that regularly tries to recruit from abroad. Schools and the eighth amendment are regularly cited as reasons why people don't want to come here.

Two damn good reasons for us (software developer and civil engineer with an almost 9 month old) to stay in the UK tbh! I'd prefer for us to complete our family here anyway before we even think about moving home (regarding the 8th - I do not want to be pregnant in Ireland) and the schools situation is a total mess.

iamtony

iamtony wrote: »

what's the harm?

Genuine question ... what's the harm in taking religious indoctrination out of schools, making it the responsibility of the parent(s) and church and replacing it with civics/ethics/philosophy?

You say that you would never push your views on religious matters on people and that is what is happening to every non-Catholic family who can't (for whatever reason) get a place in a non-denominational school.

Why are people so reluctant to take responsibility for the religious education of their own children?

DavyD_83

I haven't gotten to this yet (I have a 2 year old), and it does bother me how we will deal with these type of things when they arrive as I think my own and my wife's views are a bit different. Although it now looks like lil one be going to a non-secular gaelscoil which is good news except for similar but different issue of feeling like I need to learn Irish.

Anyway, to look at the OP, I think there is a huge difference between kids being taught that God created everything (and from what I remember, that may even include the big bang), and being taught Creationism beliefs that it all happened 5,000 years ago and that Evolution is a myth.

I went to a 'catholic' primary and secondary school; at no point in my education was it stated that evolution was not real, and that God had created everything so science should be ignored (or whatever the 'sensible' version of it is).
Maybe I went to more reasonable schools than most (I don't think so), or your daughter's school is madder/stricter than most (possible).

I have no faith (sometimes wish I did), and have no intention of teaching my daughter to believe in God, but I have no problem with her being told about it all and making up her own mind.
I don't mind that at the moment she thinks there's fairies in the garden, and if she still does in 30 years time, as long as she's not using it to justify being an a**hole, that's fine by me too.

Some people will always find comfort in believing in something; some people even find comfort in not believing in something.
Why put effort into ruining either for them?

xzanti

I was actually thinking of starting a similar thread a while back.

My little guy (5) came home all upset one day recently. They'd been learning about death in religion. He was crying all evening saying he didn't want me to go to holy god and leave him.

I thought it was a bit early to be teaching them about this stuff he's in Senior Infants.

But I guess the death of a loved one is something that people of all ages have to deal with so it's probably a good thing to bring it up.

It opened up a very complicated conversation between he and I, I found myself getting confused and questioning a lot of stuff

GreenFolder2

That is way way too early.

I'd actually consider making a very serious complaint. That is far too heavy a topic for 5 year olds - psychologically they're not really capable of dealing with it.

Kids that age don't have the emotional maturity, the ability to put things into perspective or the language skills to be sure they could actually process that.

It's fairly clear, given that your kid came home worried that you were going to die.

It's just way too complicated and mature a topic to bring up in that context.

You're talking about an age when they are likely to believe in magic and take things very literally.

iamtony

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Genuine question ... what's the harm in taking religious indoctrination out of schools, making it the responsibility of the parent(s) and church and replacing it with civics/ethics/philosophy?

You say that you would never push your views on religious matters on people and that is what is happening to every non-Catholic family who can't (for whatever reason) get a place in a non-denominational school.

Why are people so reluctant to take responsibility for the religious education of their own children?

I agree with you in that national schools should be made non-denominational or at the very least should have to opt in to a separate religious class if the parents want that, but it is what it is and I just don't think that excluding a child and making them different from most othr children in the class is the right thing to do. For reasons I've already mentioned it can have some benefit as well.
As for pushing the chaotic ethos on kids from different religions, from my experiences with my 13 year old who make his confirmation earlier this year, it's not really rammed down their throats and the non catholic kids can sit and read a book while religion is being thought.
I remember one coloured boy who was a friend of my son showed up for the communion and confirmations because he wanted to take part and the teacher told the priest he wasn't being confirmed and could you just give him a blessing and everyone was happy.

GreenFolder2

It's pretty obvious what it was about (and is about) - peer pressure as a sales tactic.

Religions are very keen to be in education and go on about the importance of "faith formation" at an early age.

The sense I've always had here in Ireland is that institutions like these will respect other religions but tend to consider atheists / non religious to be lazy Catholics or "wandering sheep" to be brought back into the flock by the "shepherd".

Youre kidding yourself if you think that there's no evangelising / proselytising motive to excluding people from access to education without the correct baptismal certificate and making life awkward for people they consider to he "lost sheep".

I remember as a kid and as a teen here I was nominally catholic and my parents weren't practising. Most of my teachers were very open minded but one or two really were nasty. I was told by a primary teacher that if I didn't go to mass I wouldn't be confirmed and then I couldn't go to secondary school and wouldn't that be a shame as then I couldn't go to university or get a proper job!!

I had a teacher call me aside and quiz be about the gospel at Mass every Monday. I never knew what it was and he got really aggressive about about it and slagged off my family to my face. Told me my parents were unfit etc etc

That's not all that many years ago and some of those people are still teaching.

As I hit my teens I really confirmed that I didn't have any religious views and I was absolutely put out by how the church has dealt with contraception, womens rights and gay rights. I wasn't exactly keen on being affiliated to it, yet I was marched off to mass several times a year by the secondary school and had various random prayers etc, big statues of the Blessed Virgin in every class room and a crucifix over every blackboard.

They even did the blessing of the throats ever year...

Zamboni

Jesus H Christ, thank God for Educate Together

Zamboni

The state is highly unlikely to change the current school patronage system any time soon. I've been battling this crap for years.
It is up to each parent to set their own standard for the education they want for the child and take ownership and responsibility for the provision of that education.

A child starts school around 5. So you have 5 years from conception to move to where there is a multi-denominational school or set one up yourself. "But Zamboni, it's not as easy as that". I didn't say it was. You might have family, employment issues with moving or years of hassle trying to set up an ET but ultimately it is your choice.
Every non Catholic parent that places a child in a Catholic school maintains the status quo that little bit longer.

We'll all be long gone by the time the state finally wrestles the greasy fingers of the church from the education system.

I have 5 kids who have gone through or are going through the full religious education system in Ireland. My wife is religious but not a regular attender at church. I am atheist.
Any time questions came up about religion from my kids, I always made my views quite clear and told them they needed to make up their own minds.
By the time the kids get to secondary school they are much more aligned to my beliefs than my wife's.
Don't underestimate your kids abilities to come to their own conclusions about religion. When they are very young, they will likely be more influenced by their peers and teachers but as they develop more independent critical thinking and if they are not being subjected to the same belief system at home, they will make up their own minds.
I told my kids from a young age that I did not believe in God but that many people do and it was up to them to decide what to believe. As they got older I could debate religion with them. In the early primary school years, I wouldn't recommend making it to complicated for them. It can feel like they are being brainwashed but in the long term the family has more influence than the school.

lazygal

iamtony wrote: »

I agree with you in that national schools should be made non-denominational or at the very least should have to opt in to a separate religious class if the parents want that, but it is what it is and I just don't think that excluding a child and making them different from most othr children in the class is the right thing to do. For reasons I've already mentioned it can have some benefit as well.
As for pushing the chaotic ethos on kids from different religions, from my experiences with my 13 year old who make his confirmation earlier this year, it's not really rammed down their throats and the non catholic kids can sit and read a book while religion is being thought.
I remember one coloured boy who was a friend of my son showed up for the communion and confirmations because he wanted to take part and the teacher told the priest he wasn't being confirmed and could you just give him a blessing and everyone was happy.

Are you for real? A "coloured boy", is this something still in use?

sonandheir

I'm not sure why people get all freaked out about teaching religion, when we fill their heads with loads of rubbish (Santa, birds & bees) yet no one ever goes on about this.

I don't believe in organised religion but my little one goes to a catholic school, and is learning about god Jesus etc.


I'm just going to break it to her when she's ready to hear about Santa.

Job done, no harm.

_Brian

TBH I just let the kids work away with the teachimgs at school until they started to question it, then I introduced the scientific explanation of evolution and corrected the idea that religion is fact but that it is rather an ideology designed to develop good morals rather than a factual historical event.

Both girls started to question things about 7/8 yo. Around communion age.

Until then I left them to it, my wife would bring them to mass maybe once a month and I'd go an odd time. they'll find their own level and question things when the time is right. My 7yo sat up on mass and said "that's not true, sher that just couldn't happen". We agreed with her rather than contradicting her once she had Figured it out.

iamtony

lazygal wrote: »

iamtony wrote: »

I agree with you in that national schools should be made non-denominational or at the very least should have to opt in to a separate religious class if the parents want that, but it is what it is and I just don't think that excluding a child and making them different from most othr children in the class is the right thing to do. For reasons I've already mentioned it can have some benefit as well.
As for pushing the chaotic ethos on kids from different religions, from my experiences with my 13 year old who make his confirmation earlier this year, it's not really rammed down their throats and the non catholic kids can sit and read a book while religion is being thought.
I remember one coloured boy who was a friend of my son showed up for the communion and confirmations because he wanted to take part and the teacher told the priest he wasn't being confirmed and could you just give him a blessing and everyone was happy.

Are you for real? A "coloured boy", is this something still in use?

ha I don't know where exactly he's from sorry couldn't think of anything better, didn't mean to offend:-)