Junior Infants - Religion

lazygal

The intent of catholic schools is clear, and you can read it yourself: https://www.cpsma.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/CPSMA-Handbook-2016.pdf

It refers to this: Catholic schools must not renounce their own characteristics and Christian-oriented educational programmes when immigrants’ children of another religion are accepted
on page 15.
Doesn't sound that inclusive to me.

Also this, on page 22: In a climate of growing secularism, Catholic schools are
distinguished by faith in the transcendent mystery of God as
the source of all that exists and as the meaning of human
existence. This faith is not simply the subject- matter of
particular lessons but forms the foundation of all that we do
and the horizon of all that takes place in the school

Catholic schools have an integrated curriculum. All lessons are taught from a religious view.

Confused mum84

Also had a few students hosted in the school during the war in Kosovo (they were Muslim ) & were invited into all classes to tell us about their religion & customs .. Your not giving credit much to Irish people if you think the aim was/is to indoctrinate us all . If that was the case the church/state failed miserably given gay marriage referendum passed by a huge majority , most couples co- habitate etc etc etc

Confused mum84

Different case in reality

lazygal

So why bother teaching the catholic faith when most don't actually follow it? Why not teach something else?

OU812

My child came home the other day a little upset because teacher ( a late 20s girl from the country) told the kids that they had to have a crib for the baby Jesus, that if they didn't it wouldn't be Xmas. Also, the baby Jesus shares his presents with all the boys & girls around the world through Santa so if he doesn't have a birthday, there's no presents for anyone.

I'm fully aware that a five year old might have taken it up wrong or partially made it up, but I'm pretty annoyed still. I started typing an email to the principle earlier & then stopped as the teacher is going on maternity leave on Thursday next & won't be back until September. (something tells me the timing of the pregnancy was planned quite well).

I managed to assure her that Santa & the baby Jesus are not in cahoots & Santa will be coming anyway.

Confused mum84

Sorry moonbeam , only seeing your post now.. Yes , I agree that young children shouldn't be taught that God Made everything at 5 years of age etc. It's a bit ridiculous !! Think it would be more beneficial to focus simple on bible stories (the ones that actually are of ethical benefit) , learning Christmas songs etc . I would also find this annoying but it wouldn't bother me too much - as other posters mentioned their kids totally grew out of this - i.e. When discussion or learning about evolution , I doubt anyone has ever said no way hose God made everything (I know some religious fanatics do but have never come across any Irish person below a certain age disputing this ) so would take with a pinch of salt - but your right - it is ridiculous to start of teaching at that age in that manner . Would be better to say - bible stories point to god making xyz at an older age

lazygal

Grow in Love is the catholic curriculum, it is very clear on what five year olds must be taught if they are receiving catholic religious instruction.

http://www.veritasbooksonline.com/media/wysiwyg/Junior_Infants_sampler-web.pdf

Confused mum84

That's a disgrace , you should absolutely complain to principal but maybe in a few weeks once teacher has had baby (so you can't be blamed for upsetting a heavily pregnant lady). That's not in the spirit of education at all, teacher sounds like a complete bully. Young child has no control over whether a crib is up at home /taken to mass

volchitsa

mordeith wrote: »

You know your own child best of course but you may be underestimating her. If you give kids logical answers to questions from an early age they develop their own ability to question things. Kids grow out of believing in fairies etc as they learn more about the workd around them. It can be the same with religion if you encourage a questioning environment at home.

Yes I was going to say something like this. They don't need to question right from the start, in fact she may (like me at that age) really want to believe in fairies and magic and God and everything, I used to hope against hope that there might really be fairies and genies that could give you three wishes. Even though I knew how unlikely it was.

And then I grew out of it.
God took a bit longer, mind, but that's because we were completely brainwashed in the 70s and nobody around me encouraged me to think about it. Quite the opposite, we were encouraged to develop a sort of schizophrenia where we didn't think about religion the way we thought about anything else. Even though I later discovered my father had been an atheist for years, but out of respect for my mother's beliefs had kept that from us.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that by being as "dogmatic" as the teachers are, you may just be building up their credibility in her mind. Let her work it through herself, and answer honestly that you think differently from the teacher, and explain if she wants to know, but honestly don't worry about it.

If she knows you'll answer honestly and to the best of your abilities (and that includes saying we're not sure) she'll work out herself who's making stuff up. But not until she's ready herself to say goodbye to taking all the lovely stories literally!

GreenFolder2

Confused mum84 wrote: »

Your colleague would have had no problem finding a school that exempted the child from religion class, I'm sure once he spoke to school they'd have put his mind at ease .. There must have been other factors at play & he used this as an excuse.. Also your colleague wasn't from Ireland , it's not unfair it's not the country's job to cater to people from outside. The needs & wants of Irish citizens should be catered to first & prioritised in state run schools . If an Irish person moves to the Middle East for example they have to pay to be taught in international schools. If moving to the us , they will often opt to pay private school fees & send children to catholic schools (less about religion I suspect & more about better acedemic record) . I myself am not religious but am very happy for kids to be taught religion in school. It's taught in a light manner i.e. Very few Irish people are religious fanatics & we were one of the first countries in the world to vote in gay marriage via referendum despite 99% of people attending religious schools. Thus teaching religion in schools is not something to be done away with . It's not taught in a fantatical or dangerous manner , it's taught in a way that's helped to contribute to the well rounded open minded tolerant people we are today.

That's incredibly xenophobic! Of course it's the country's job to take care of the provision of education. These were a non religious family that moved here due to a fairly high ranking job in in a major US multinational. They found the school system wasn't meeting their needs, so packed up and took their skills straight back to California after a year and a half here.

Basically what you're implying is that non Catholics aren't welcome here.

Should I just pack up and move too then!?

Put the shoe on the other foot. Imagine moving to England and being basically given a choice of nothing but schools that would continuously push Church of England teaching on catholic children or at best allow them to sit at the back of the class while copious amounts of the day were spent singing hymns and preparing for sacrenebts. I don't think many Irish catholic parents would be too happy about it.

Maybe they were right to just go back to the US.
Ireland's clearly not a very welcoming place to "outsiders" even those of us born here.

Confused mum84

No I'm implying that they are provided for - there is an obligation on schools to exempt non Catholic children from religion class . If the exemption is available , where is the issue ?

Confused mum84

Also if the job was high ranking - school fees are normally included in relocation package .. I think your being controversial for the sake of controversy . Use all the buzz words you want but my post was in no way xenophobic . If anything you have an issue with free speech

GreenFolder2

Sadly this is the problem though. Irish mainstream Catholics can't (or won't) even recognise this is an major problem.

No, the company didn't include payment of school fees and there are basically no nonreligious private schools either anyway. The vast majority are just fee paying, possibly even more religious schools.

Or, the assumption is made that secular option = church of Ireland school which simply isn't true either.

I actually give up. Nothing changes here on this topic and you can't even debate it as it's some kind of weird "sacred cow" topic that will not allow any kind of discussion.

The impression given to anyone outside "the norm" is that the system is deliberately designed to push them into the fold. Public schools prioritising places for one religion over others on intake policies is still prevalent etc etc too. Even the UN is highly critical of lack of educational choices here.

Confused mum84

Just to clarify by exemption - I mean excused from class I.e. Join another class for the 20 mins religion time .

GreenFolder2

Confused mum84 wrote: »

Just to clarify by exemption - I mean excused from class I.e. Join another class for the 20 mins religion time .

But how does that work when classes are started with prayers, there are prayers throughout the day etc.

For example a friend of mine was telling me that before "little break" and "big break" her kid is asked to stand up and day "bless the hands that made the food. Bless us Oh God Amen"

Same person was saying that the teacher said the Our Father before home time etc etc.

Art projects were also heavily religious themed on many occasions.

It's very hard / impossible to opt out of those things.

At present the Irish systems don't really just confine religion to a neat block that can he opted out of. It's also very much down to the individual teacher. Some are absolutely fine and very understanding of diversity in the classroom, others seem to see it as an evangelising mission.

Have a look at the current rules for primary schools sometime. The whole thing speaks of how teachers should pretty much infuse religion into all aspects of what they do. They are anything but inclusive and haven't actually changed since the 1960s even if teachers try to be more accommodating these days. They are very much stuck in a system that deliberately makes it very hard to avoid religiosity.

It's all seen as 100% normal though and any criticism is basically just swept aside.

Confused mum84

Appreciate your point now that your not wrongly accusing xenophobia ! There are some schools I.e a number of educate togethers in cork (I think you mentioned cork in an earlier post). , gaelscoil in mayfield that's non denom. Roxboro, but obviously either high demand , Irish speaking , private so not an option for everybody . I don't think the issue is religion in schools per say but there should be a process in place to excuse non/different faith pupils from class & this needs to be consistent nationwide rather than on case by case basis at schools discretion. I think this would solve most of the issues.

Shoe on the other fit , if I did move to uk & could only get place in COE school per say , if I wasn't happy with religious instruction in school (to the point of being v upset) , & had to move home , I would accept that , might complain for sure but certainly wouldn't expect British government to change school policy

GreenFolder2

So you'd be fine with the idea of just excluding minority religions and non religious from the country though a state policy of not providing open schooling?

I think you've just proven my point.

Confused mum84

Opt out should mean opt out. Having said that all public schools in America recite the pledge of allegiance (at the start of every school day ) & there is a reference to in "God we trust" or in God we place our faith something along those lines anyway " so I think the bless the hands that made the food line is resonable in context , however the our father should be reserved for religion class if opt outers in class .

OU812

Religion should be taken out of the curriculum and replaced with a foreign language.

Run a Sunday school (or Saturday school) for those interested for religious instruction using the empty at the weekend school.

GreenFolder2

Or, possibly a full science and technology syllabus.

CiboC

Confused mum84 wrote: »

there is an obligation on schools to exempt non Catholic children from religion class . If the exemption is available , where is the issue ?

The issue is the enormous amount of school time which is taken up by RC religious instruction when it could be far more useful for either of:

OU812 wrote: »

Religion should be taken out of the curriculum and replaced with a foreign language.

GreenFolder2 wrote: »

Or, possibly a full science and technology syllabus.

Or many other alternatives. Don't use the excuse that religion teaches ethics and morals, this can be done in many other non religious ways too.

Walter H Price

To be honest i think most people are in agreement that the amount of time wasted on religion when subjects like science , History , Computers etc barely get a look in in Primary schools is a joke.

If i was the OP i would be looking for my kids to be opted out of the religious stuff its all nonsense anyway , the reality is in the country it is still on the parents to educate their kids about science and evolution. My dad in particular did a stand out job with us in that regard reading kids science books to us , trips to zoos , natural history and science museums here and when we were away.

I remember when i was maybe 7 just after my sister had just started school the priest told them (in class on a visit) around Christmas that if you didn't go to Christmas eve mass Santa might not come, she was insisting we had to go to mass just in case but my dad laughed it off and explained perfectly how Santa was a pagan tradition , and the mid winter festival was a Celtic thing and that the church just jumped on the bandwagon , he made it very funny but at the same time really got the message home for us.

He read us allot of kids books about Celtic mythology , the myths and legends i loved that kinda stuff as a kid , the RCC always seemed a bit sh!t in comparison to the tuatha de danann or the Norse (viking) gods, a dead jew on a stick wasn't half as cool to 10 year old boy as a viking with a lightning hammer.

Confused mum84

Excuse me - I'm not using any excuse - religion does teach about ethics & morals . There are plenty of people who are happy for the children to be taught about religion in schools & in all of my posts I've acknowledged that choice for those that aren't interested is essential .

Re science , other languages deserving more time on the ciriculum , nobody's saying that religion should be on ciriculum over these subjects. Most people would like to see more time allocated here too. However that's taking the discussion in a different area where you'd have to look at time spent on all subjects including Irish etc. The thread was about opting in /out of religion

CiboC

Confused mum84 wrote: »

Excuse me - I'm not using any excuse - religion does teach about ethics & morals

My point was that you can teach ethics and morals without religion, I was not saying that religion doesn't include elements of this (although it also includes charming moral guidance about an eye for an eye and god requiring parents to kill their children..!)

You can't really suggest that there is a real choice of opting out of religious instruction in primary schools when that instruction permeates throughout the whole day...

Walter H Price

Confused mum84 wrote: »

Excuse me - I'm not using any excuse - religion does teach about ethics & morals . There are plenty of people who are happy for the children to be taught about religion in schools & in all of my posts I've acknowledged that choice for those that aren't interested is essential .

Re science , other languages deserving more time on the ciriculum , nobody's saying that religion should be on ciriculum over these subjects. Most people would like to see more time allocated here too. However that's taking the discussion in a different area where you'd have to look at time spent on all subjects including Irish etc. The thread was about opting in /out of religion

it teaches 1 religions view on morality and ethics ,The RCC not a religion id give much credence too ( not that i would have much time for any of them) given their decades long perpetration and cover up of child sex abuse alone , i'm definitely going to take their view on "morality" with sizable pinch of salt. Realistically religious instruction adds little or no value to a child's education, and if parents want in they should be seeking it outside of school , but i digress.

as i said if i was the OP id just ask for my child to be given something else to do during religious education time , i don't see it as in anyway useful. It is a shame that so much time is wasted on this subject when actual subjects that can allow kids develop skills and interests that may help them choose a career in later life like science and computing , are afforded little or no time , it is one of the greatest failings of our education system in its current form.

Back to the OP , as i said i get the crappy situation your in , the system is failing you and your kids , your best bet is to either opt them out (they wont be missing much) or leave them in but take an active interest in what they are being told and challenge that teaching with fact's , science , logic and reason and allow them come to their own conclusion that organised religion is a sham, as most rational free thinking people have.

Confused mum84

Your taking it to extreme - being taught about an eye for an eye 😉 Christianity teaches forgiveness & that eye for an eye is wrong . . Don't ever remember being taught about it being ok for parents to kill children or honour killings . You must be getting mixed up with what's claimed to be done in name of religion elsewhere ..

Having said that teachers upsetting children saying Santa won't come unless you go to mass etc is not acceptable & should not be got away with. The dept should absolutely tackle that

& im in agreement that opt out should mean opt out & should be facilitated ..

Again nobody specifically said they were in agreement that religion should be taught for 20-30 mins each day . I think most people would agree that it's not necessary day in day out if it could facilitate other subjects being brought into ciriculum .. Opinions expressed were general on religious teaching in schools

While I'm respecting opt out rights & opinions you also need to respect opinions of others

GreenFolder2

Confused mum84 wrote: »

Excuse me - I'm not using any excuse - religion does teach about ethics & morals . There are plenty of people who are happy for the children to be taught about religion in schools & in all of my posts I've acknowledged that choice for those that aren't interested is essential .

Re science , other languages deserving more time on the ciriculum , nobody's saying that religion should be on ciriculum over these subjects. Most people would like to see more time allocated here too. However that's taking the discussion in a different area where you'd have to look at time spent on all subjects including Irish etc. The thread was about opting in /out of religion

Actually the Department of Education rules for primary schools do exactly that. Religious instruction is stated to be the most important subject.

Everyone should have a read of the absolutely archaic nonsense that primary school teachers are supposed to function with!

Also as an aside : laundry is still recognised as a subject (for girls) !!!!?????

https://www.education.ie/en/Schools-Colleges/Information/Rules-and-Programmes-for-Schools/rules_for_national_schools_7_13.pdf

This isn't in some 19th century archive... It's still current rules!

*** It's very important that people read these *** as this is what parents, students and open-minded educators and indeed, Educate Together as are up against!

You literally can't establish an non denominational school here. Under those rules they have to be religious in their ethos regardless. That's why ET is "multi denominational".

Basically, secular schools are illegal or at least not lawful under current rules.

It's worth remembering to ask your local snivvling TDs come looking for votes. Worth asking them what exactly they've done to sort it out (nothing in 99.999% of cases)

Also ask them why laundry is still on those rules. Frankly, I think it's an absolute insult to the survivors of Magdalene laundries.

Whether or not the curriculum isn't like that and this is only a relic on rules, it still is pretty shocking that it is still mentiond in 2016

It's actually fairly shocking those rules were written in the 1960s. They read more like the 1860s

GreenFolder2

Here's the relevant bit

As you can see it is totally self contradictory as it says that your child shouldn't have to attend religious instruction that you don't approve of, but yet the religious teaching is supposed to "vivify" the entire work of the school.

So basically you can't opt out in practice only in theory.

It also completely assumes that everyone believes in God and quite clearly in the "traditional" monotheistic Judeo-Christian view of a god.

GreenFolder2

The laundry bit ....(for girls)

Bring your Persil and a washing board, ladies!

Meanwhile the lads will do manual instruction, possibly some form of rock breaking?!

Walter H Price

Confused mum84 wrote: »

Your taking it to extreme - being taught about an eye for an eye 😉 Christianity teaches forgiveness & that eye for an eye is wrong . . Don't ever remember being taught about it being ok for parents to kill children or honour killings . You must be getting mixed up with what's claimed to be done in name of religion elsewhere ..

Having said that teachers upsetting children saying Santa won't come unless you go to mass etc is not acceptable & should not be got away with. The dept should absolutely tackle that

& im in agreement that opt out should mean opt out & should be facilitated ..

Again nobody specifically said they were in agreement that religion should be taught for 20-30 mins each day . I think most people would agree that it's not necessary day in day out if it could facilitate other subjects being brought into ciriculum .. Opinions expressed were general on religious teaching in schools

While I'm respecting opt out rights & opinions you also need to respect opinions of others

Religion is such a personal thing i don't believe it has any place in mainstream schools , particularly when its only 1 religion being taught and pushed constantly. according to our constitution this is a secular state , not a catholic state and as such catholic religious instruction has no place in state schools which pretty much all primary schools are , the church doesn't pay for maintenance , building or the training and payment of teachers.

If parents want religious instruction they should have to seek it outside of the school environment, as is the case in most other countries. Sadly i think were along way off this so the only option for may will be to opt their kids out and educate them themselves in some of the more important things in life like computing , technology , science etc... because whether you like it or not the education system in this country at primary level is failing in this regard while an inordinate amount of time is given over to talking about religious nonsense.