Junior Infants - Religion

KerryJames

Hello to you all within the forum. I have a parenting dilemma of which i am sure a number of you may have dealt with. I would dearly love some response based on your experience.

Please note before you read: I am not here to create a battle ground full of silver religious tipped bullets flying too and fro.

I have just started my daughter in a catholic Primary school in our local town. Of course this town has only one school available thus alleviating my ability to be selective of which school i send her to.

They have now begun teaching the catholic ethos to her and fellow classes mates. My daughter has begun to ask complex questions of which i answer through a series of broken down steps, allowing her infant comprehension of deep academic answers to cope with. Even though children are quite understanding and very adaptive, they still move and make decision based on majority. Thus, when my daughter asks a question about "god" and the likes, i begin to explain with language she will understand about the process of the big bang, evolution and so forth.

This is where it gets tricky for a parent in my position. In her little mind beginning to learn, majority of her friends with not have parents with the same beliefs as me and thus these children will grow up believing in what they are taught by their teacher as their teacher is teaching them the beliefs of their parents but in my case, this is not my belief. I continue to explain to my daughter the process of evolution and universe but in her mind, it is a battle ground, daddy VS teacher and friends.

To make the situation even more complicated, i do not wish her to be with drawn from the religion class... this may sound counter intuitive but, i dearly understand she may never share my beliefs just like I with my parents and their belief in Catholicism Vs mine in science. I wish for her to be educated in a manner of as many aspects of religions and sciences as possible, allowing her the ability to use her own logic and reasoning to find where her beliefs lay.

Will anyone of you share your past experiences with me on how you may have dealt with sending your child to a catholic school while your home shares a different belief in religion or science. The manner in which i am currently handling it seems okay for now but i am sure my logic is flawed somewhere and will cause a terrible amount of confusion in a child's mind thus i wish to improve my parenting ability in this situation.

Should i exempt her from the class completely?

How did you deal with sending your child to a catholic school should you share my or different beliefs to those being taught?

How did you explain to your child the how, whats and whys of the differences between your beliefs and the beliefs being taught. (Please don't be a pushy extremist... )

looksee

I think you are probably using a sledgehammer to crack a nut here. I very much doubt the school is teaching creationism and it seems unlikely that the questions are as complex as you are suggesting. Maybe if you gave a couple of examples it would be easier to understand what level of Catholic theology you are dealing with.

Have a look at the syllabus here http://www.veritasbooksonline.com/religious-education/re-curriculum-for-ireland.html

If you choose to leave your child in that school, and I accept that you have no choice, and wish her to remain in the class - which you may as well since religious education permeates the ethos of the school, you are probably best advised to just let it go for now. I had a couple of occasions when one of mine came home and said something along the lines of 'Sister says there are devils living under the ground' looking anxiously at the floor. I just dismissed this out of hand - not, I agree, current thinking of how to deal with these situations, but this was the 1970s. I only knew when to stop beating my head off a wall.

As she gets older you should be teaching her to think critically, and when she asks questions on any non-factual subject, discuss why she thinks that may or may not be true, what alternative possibilities there are.

At the moment you are confusing her by, having sent her to a Catholic-ethos school, and keeping her in the religion class then contradicting what she is being told at school. I cannot think of any reason why you would answer questions about god with a dissertation on the big bang and evolution, she asks you one question and you answer a different one.

Back off from direct confrontation with religion and as she gets older, encourage her to think about these things.

KerryJames

Thank you for your reply lookse.

They are quite complicated and as for creationism being not taught, i think it very well is being taught. Let me back this up with a question she asked me last night

"Dad, okay, so god who is up in the sky made where we live (creationism) and he made everything and everyone comes from their mommys but how did we get here.. " I was just waiting for the Adam and Eve story but it didn't come, obviously they have yet to be taught it. I simply answered explaining that nobody knows exactly who god is, if he is a man, women or even real but there once was a big explosion like a bomb away up in the darkness where the stars live and thats what i think made us all. I then told her we may have been a fish and a chimp which we laughed about.

So, I do believe that for a 5 year old asking questions on "how we got here" is complicated.

Going further into your reply, i don't believe one should dismiss it. This creates a situation of complicating ethics. I do understand this would have been quite different in the 70s with strict catholic ethos being taught. I do know the teaching of it has changed quite dramatically over the years which in turn allows the situation to be handled differently rather than just dismissing it.

"I cannot think of any reason why you would answer questions about god with a dissertation on the big bang and evolution, she asks you one question and you answer a different one.".. Really?

I answered the question through this dissertation on the big bang and evolution because the idea of god being taught to her is on the basis of creationism and god being a human-like being who created earth and the opposite of it is the big bang and evolution. Now, in some cases and beliefs god, big bang and evolution co-inside but here, in this situation, god is being taught on the basis of being the creator.

I would dearly like for this thread to not become a debate on religion and the teaching principles of it in schools. I won't be saying any more than what i mentioned above of why i answered it in the way i did.

I am simply trying to get some perspectives on a potential way to handle it over the way i am now. Dismissing it is not something i wish to do..

mordeith

We just tell our son that some people believe in religion and all that goes with but it's not science or anything proveable. He already didn't believe in 'magic' so it's no bother for him in religion class. He just sees it as something others believe. He didn't participate in communion and was fine with it

Big Bag of Chips

"Nobody really knows. Every body believes their own thing. Your teacher believes x, y, z happened. I believe a, b, c happened. What do you think?"

My children are in a Catholic school. Are baptised. Take part in religion class. By the age of 7 my eldest, an avid reader, didn't believe a word of it. I answered any questions honestly with what I believe. The younger two believe (more than he does) but still know about the universe, and stars and the big bang etc.

KerryJames

mordeith: You seem to have had quite the easy ride with it. Both of my children are not baptized and hence will not take part in communion. I think this may be a little upsetting for my daughter as she, being the little girl she is, likes dresses and so forth. She may surprise me though. Good to know some children deal with it fine and let's hope she does also.

KerryJames

Big Bag Of Chips: Right, but if i should ask my little girl, "what do you think?" She will reply with a bias answer on the basis of what she is being educated on in school simply because she is yet to ask me enough questions to begin questioning it herself.

Big Bag of Chips

If that's what she believes now, that's fine. And keep talking to her! Keep questioning her. Read books with her. If you don't want her to be opted out of religious education, then you have to accept that being in a Catholic school, she will be taught Catholic beliefs. She's only junior infants, so her I understanding is going to be limited anyway. And even though you have an understanding of the layers. Her thinking is much more simple. For instance she's not thinking about it now!! But you're thinking very deeply about how to explain it to her.

As she gets older, she'll develop her sense of critical thinking. She may or may not believe it all/some of it. Remember she is 5. When she's confident enough to read the Osbourne books are brilliant. "My first Encylopedia of Space" is a favourite on our house.

She'll be fine. It's a small part of her education and you have years to present your counter argument!

LegacyUser

i kind of understand where you are coming from, my husband is Catholic, i am Agnostic,

our daughter is 7, she is in a catholic school, the way i see it is religion is one like many things perhaps most like Santa, once you stop believing its very hard to believe again. My husband is one who in times of stress or exams found great comfort from his religion, and i figure if my daughter also feels the same then surely thats to her benefit to have some kind of comfort, so i won't burst the bubble until she says something,i find this was you are not dismissing it,and as you can stick as close to the truth as you believe it, e.g: Maybe God did create the universe, but other people believe it was created by something called the big bang theory"

if she (like i did) turns around when she is older and says "i don't believe that God made everything" then we have decided then i will sit down with her and ask what does she believe, and we will do what she need's from us to support those beliefs to our best ability,

as for what other people believe we use the same line we do for those who don't believe in Santa, "some people have different belief's and do things differently to us and that's ok too,"

that covers those who's Parents do their "santa" gifts, those who celebrate differently on Christmas eve, those who celebrate Hanukkah...etc

and this too covers all the religious questions,

Moonbeam

I explain to my kids 5 and 7 that everybody has their own beliefs and you have to respect others peoples even if you think they are crazy. They understand basic evolution and they can ask any questions they want.
I am driven mad though with crap like your soul is black until you say sorry "1st confession" sigh
If they come home with stories I explain that some of them are Parables and what did they get from them or understand.
The same way that we read about unicorns or Fionn and the Fianna.

mordeith

KerryJames wrote: »

She will reply with a bias answer on the basis of what she is being educated on in school simply because she is yet to ask me enough questions to begin questioning it herself.

You know your own child best of course but you may be underestimating her. If you give kids logical answers to questions from an early age they develop their own ability to question things. Kids grow out of believing in fairies etc as they learn more about the workd around them. It can be the same with religion if you encourage a questioning environment at home.

AlanG

Similar to other posters I let my kids know that some people believe in this and others do not. I tell them that the main thing to take from the story of Christ is his messages about loving others, being kind, trying to understand and forgiveness. A lot of the message in the Gospels is fine so we focus on that and let them know there are a lot of questions about most of the Bible stories and other teachings.
I don't want to undermine the authority of the teachers as many of them are teaching due to contract commitments. I feel the best way to do this is to focus on the messages of goodness and explain that many of the stories are there to illustrate these messages.

Walter H Price

i fully understand your reasoning for allowing your child stay in the religion class, but maybe look for some kid friendly books on science and evolution to read her yourself , some ideas here http://www.the-best-childrens-books.org/charles-darwin-evolution.html and here http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/77985.Kids_Books_on_the_Big_Bang_and_Evolution

I see absolutely no value in any of the religion stuff , however i think your decision to allow her learn both and make her own mind up is commendable. You will have to do the educating re science and evolution as our primary schools are some what stuck in the dark ages on that stuff.

AnneFrank

I did the same as alot of posters, just explained everyone has their own belief, but i waited until they were old enough to understand that. No point saying it to a child.
Now mine are 12 and like me do not believe in god but still participate in religion.
There is still alot of good things to learn in religion class

looksee

Hi OP. I am sorry if I came across a little dismissive of your concerns, I have a better understanding now o what your issues are. Still I think at this stage you should not be too concerned with detailed answers. Rather than concentrating on countering specific issues, as others have said, leave it at 'we don't really know, and different people have different ideas'.

Children are well capable of dealing with Santa and tooth fairies and stories and legends. You have plenty of time to offer alternative ideas as she grows up.

LegacyUser

Religion in primary schools is pretty light stuff- singing songs , listening to bible stories in child friendly way that teaches good morals i.e. Sharing, everybody's unique in their own with , different talents, caring for your neighbour respecting parents etc.. I'm not religious but think these are all great life lessons.. All kids think teacher knows best - no getting around this when they're very young.. My little man has s meltdown if we put coat on diff to way teacher thought them.. I wouldn't even have argument /disagree with her.. Isn't it great that she's opening up & sharing her day.. If she perceives you to be critical , she might not share as much.. Just listen & encourage or change subject & ask her about what stories they're reading in English etc .. Somebody else mentioned science for kids books , spend a set afternoon a week doing fun science activities .. She's getting the best of both worlds then.. I'm sure (like most Irish people) she'll learn to critique , question & just take the bits of religion she wants by the time she's a young teenager .. No need to worry at all. Also on the communion front , u know some schools that let children that haven't made communion step in for class photo so they're not left out & also family is invited to attend communion reception in school after church.. Could you get involved that way & maybe offer to help setting up for reception .. I'm sure school would appreciate help & your daughter would feel super important with her "special job ".. Also maybe dress daughter in something fancy that day up & get her hair done as a treat & ye could have a family day afterwards .. Problem solved , it's all about making happy memories for the kids 😊

Confused mum84

Religion in primary schools is pretty light stuff- singing songs , listening to bible stories in child friendly way that teaches good morals i.e. Sharing, everybody's unique in their own with , different talents, caring for your neighbour respecting parents etc.. I'm not religious but think these are all great life lessons.. All kids think teacher knows best - no getting around this when they're very young.. My little man has s meltdown if we put coat on diff to way teacher thought them.. I wouldn't even have argument /disagree with her.. Isn't it great that she's opening up & sharing her day.. If she perceives you to be critical , she might not share as much.. Just listen & encourage or change subject & ask her about what stories they're reading in English etc .. Somebody else mentioned science for kids books , spend a set afternoon a week doing fun science activities .. She's getting the best of both worlds then.. I'm sure (like most Irish people) she'll learn to critique , question & just take the bits of religion she wants by the time she's a young teenager .. No need to worry at all. Also on the communion front , u know some schools that let children that haven't made communion step in for class photo so they're not left out & also family is invited to attend communion reception in school after church.. Could you get involved that way & maybe offer to help setting up for reception .. I'm sure school would appreciate help & your daughter would feel super important with her "special job ".. Also maybe dress daughter in something fancy that day up & get her hair done as a treat & ye could have a family day afterwards .. Problem solved , it's all about making happy memories for the kids 😊

byhookorbycrook

Thus these children will grow up believing in what they are taught by their teacher as their teacher is teaching them the beliefs of their parents but in my case, this is not my belief. I continue to explain to my daughter the process of evolution and universe but in her mind, it is a battle ground, daddy VS teacher and friends.
The parent is the primary educator of their own child, not the teacher. She won't grow up believing this stuff if you don't want her to. I think you need to rethink the term "battleground" - and think more in terms of supporting your child in this area,help her to see that people think differently, not everyone is the same. One child might say green is their favourite colour, another blue, let her know to respect others beliefs but to be her own person in an age appropriate way. Children are far more adaptable than you may think. They cope with all kinds of "differences" that we see which they don't or if they do, they accept them.It's all part of growing up. The Junior Infant teacher can often do no wrong in a child's eyes, just like mam or dad, but as they grow older, they see that adults are not infallible!

mordeith

mordeith wrote: »

We just tell our son that some people believe in religion and all that goes with but it's not science or anything proveable. He already didn't believe in 'magic' so it's no bother for him in religion class. He just sees it as something others believe. He didn't participate in communion and was fine with it

KerryJames wrote: »

mordeith: You seem to have had quite the easy ride with it.

The ride is as easy as you make it. You are reading far too much into what's going on right now and should focus on how you deal with your children when they are older and aren't so gullible as to believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, etc.

KerryJames wrote: »

I answered the question through this dissertation on the big bang and evolution because the idea of god being taught to her is on the basis of creationism and god being a human-like being who created earth and the opposite of it is the big bang and evolution. Now, in some cases and beliefs god, big bang and evolution co-inside but here, in this situation, god is being taught on the basis of being the creator.

So what? Does that really matter to a five-year-old? Honestly, think of it as akin to the other stories and characters she's learning about and take it with a pinch of salt.

KerryJames wrote: »

Going further into your reply, i don't believe one should dismiss it. This creates a situation of complicating ethics. I do understand this would have been quite different in the 70s with strict catholic ethos being taught. I do know the teaching of it has changed quite dramatically over the years which in turn allows the situation to be handled differently rather than just dismissing it.

90% of the atheists and agnostics I know in Ireland went to religious schools and church and didn't have a parent at home who would question what they were being taught.

KerryJames wrote: »

[she]will not take part in communion. I think this may be a little upsetting for my daughter as she, being the little girl she is, likes dresses and so forth

Buy her a nice dress and throw a little party for her on the day.

For the record, I'm an atheist who would dearly love to see religious indoctrination taken out of schools, but I went through it all myself and here I am, a non-believer.

CiboC

We have a lot of conversations in my house with our three boys (9, 5 and 3) that begin with 'some people believe that...'

When asked what I think I am quite open with them in not believing in any of it, but also pointing out that many other people do believe in various different versions of religion and that's ok too, it's up to each person to decide.

My 9 year old is at the stage where he asks why there is a creation story, and I tell him that it dates from a time when people didn't understand enough about how the world started and had to come up with an explanation, and there are quite a few different versions of it depending on what religion people believe in.

How Strange

We're going with the path of least resistance right now. My son started senior infants in a local catholic school after a year in an educate together. He now says things about heaven and holy god. He asked me one day how holy god made his hands at which point I said well we know that's only a saying as you grew in my womb. Apart from that we just answer questions with 'well what do you think'.

My 3.5 year old daughter at preschool is full of Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus and Bethlehem and holy god since October so it starts in preschool apparently!

I guess I can't tell them what to believe, even though parents with religion do that, but we will guide them through these things when they're older based on what we believe or don't as the case may be. I'd like to think that we'll encourage critical thinking in them. My husband never had religion and his parents encouraged him to think and question things not just accept it as fact. He went to a rural catholic school in 80's. So it is possible!

We will also always tell them that all sorts of people believe all sorts of things and no one is right or wrong. We just have respect for each other.

Peregrinus

KerryJames wrote: »

Thank you for your reply lookse.

They are quite complicated and as for creationism being not taught, i think it very well is being taught. Let me back this up with a question she asked me last night

"Dad, okay, so god who is up in the sky made where we live (creationism) and he made everything and everyone comes from their mommys but how did we get here.. " I was just waiting for the Adam and Eve story but it didn't come, obviously they have yet to be taught it. I simply answered explaining that nobody knows exactly who god is, if he is a man, women or even real but there once was a big explosion like a bomb away up in the darkness where the stars live and thats what i think made us all. I then told her we may have been a fish and a chimp which we laughed about . . .

No offence, but I think you may be making this a little bit more confrontational than it needs to be.

"God made where we live" is not creationism in the sense that it contradicts what science has to say about cosmology. In the Catholic view, the Big Bang, evolution, etc are not opposed to the idea that God created everything; they are an account of how that creation unfolded.

Obviously you were part of this conversation and I wasn't. Plus, you know your daughter and I don't. But my sense is that her question ("how did we get here"?) is about plugging a gap. She understands that our universe had an origin. At the other end, she understands that she came from her Mummy's tummy, how in turn came from her Mummy's tummy, and so forth. What she's asking about is the bit in between - how come the universe contains people and, eventually, her? How did that happen? What did it look like? So what she's looking for is an age-appropriate account of the theory of evolution.

Which isn't easy, I grant you, since she's not quite ready to grasp sexual reproduction, inheritance of traits, natural selection and survival of the fittest. But I think you certainly can introduce her to the idea of gradual change over very long periods. She'll already be familiar with the concept of growth (not least her own growth) so the idea that the universe grows and develops, and part of that is growing us, is probably one that will mean something to her.

That's not quite scientifically accurate, of course, since our growth follows a genetically determined plan whereas evolution is dependent on random mutations, but maybe that's a level of detail she doesn't need to worry about just yet.

The point is, none of what you are saying here is at all opposed to what she is learning, and what she is going to learn, in school. If not now, then at some point she is going to be taught about the big bang, and about the theory of evolution, and that will be presented to her in terms that suggest that it's not at all inconsistent with what she learns in R.E. There may come a point where she experiences a conflict between something she hears in R.E. and something that she hears elsewhere (whether from you or in a science class) but, really, you don't want to be generating that conflict for her, or telling her that there's a conflict that she doesn't feel.

GreenFolder2

It really is very unfair that the so called public school system (with de facto compulsory attendance) puts children and their families in this position.

It's even worse when you consider that there is a constitutional protection in Art 42 that parents won't be forced to send children to schools that violate their beliefs.

Given school is publicly funded and more or less compulsory and it's often not remotely possible or practical to find alternatives in many areas of the country, it's really just ignoring all of that.

It seems in Ireland we are into a la carte constitutionalism where some articles are to be taken as absolute and impossible to breach but others "aragah sure they probably didn't mean that and sure we do it this way .. don't be minding that auld constitution.'

It's just very annoying that the OP and many, many others are put in this position. Whether you're a non religious family or one of a different religion, the school system basically will just bulldoze you into putting up with this kind of thing and if you dare debate it, the Irish public will do that well meaning, but highly patronising attempt to just smooth over the trouble maker, come up with every justification they can think of to put you back into your box and hope you will either shut up or possibly move your child to another school with the rest of the non conforming parents ...

Ireland great in many ways but the primary and secondary education systems are just not at all inclusive when it comes to religious beliefs.

Sadly I can see no change happening as anytime it's mooted the feet dig in.

We're all very quick to criticise the United States for its very odd religious conservative views expressed in their politics but when it comes closer to home we can't even seem to understand the lack of access for families who aren't religious or are of different religions is highly divisive and pushes people out or into the margins of what should be a public, inclusive state service.

At least the US, despite the politics, continues to provide genuinely public schooling open to all on an equal basis.

I know two families who are struggling with this at the moment. One moved here from the united states (IT sector) and struggled to find a secular school in Cork so moved back to California.

The other is paying for private primary school.

Confused mum84

Your colleague would have had no problem finding a school that exempted the child from religion class, I'm sure once he spoke to school they'd have put his mind at ease .. There must have been other factors at play & he used this as an excuse.. Also your colleague wasn't from Ireland , it's not unfair it's not the country's job to cater to people from outside. The needs & wants of Irish citizens should be catered to first & prioritised in state run schools . If an Irish person moves to the Middle East for example they have to pay to be taught in international schools. If moving to the us , they will often opt to pay private school fees & send children to catholic schools (less about religion I suspect & more about better acedemic record) . I myself am not religious but am very happy for kids to be taught religion in school. It's taught in a light manner i.e. Very few Irish people are religious fanatics & we were one of the first countries in the world to vote in gay marriage via referendum despite 99% of people attending religious schools. Thus teaching religion in schools is not something to be done away with . It's not taught in a fantatical or dangerous manner , it's taught in a way that's helped to contribute to the well rounded open minded tolerant people we are today.

lazygal

My husband is in a sector that regularly tries to recruit from abroad. Schools and the eighth amendment are regularly cited as reasons why people don't want to come here.

Confused mum84

I've worked in various multinationals & with people from
all over the world & never heard of religion in schools being an issue as in most schools religion is opt in /opt out in any case .. I have heard execs talk about frustrations that the international baccalaurete isn't taught here(it may be available it an international school in Dublin , not sure but it's def not available outside Dublin. Perhaps more international schools would be helpful in terms of attracting multinational relocations (which is great for economy of course ). However I don't think the solution is getting rid of religion in Irish schools. Again the school system should cater Irish citizens first

lazygal

I'm an Irish citizen and religion is a private hobby that should be done outside schools. Grow In Love is a horrible programme.

Confused mum84

thats your opinion as an Irish citizen & you have the right to have your children excluded from religion class. I'd fear they'd be losing out on opportunity to learn about ethics , take part in philosophical debate & learn about other world religions all contributing to a broad worldly education but again I think thats your right to decide . However I don't think the solution is eliminating religious education from schools . As I mentioned earlier , I'm non religious myself but see the benefits of religious education in schools (which is also the view expressed by a number of people in the thread )

lazygal

My children miss out on nothing by not having a religion. They're free of many of the myths and dangerous teachings I had to listen to, and can be perfectly ethicla people without religion.
They will learn about religion, not be indoctrinated into a single faith which is the main purpose of catholic schools.

Moonbeam

Confused mum84 wrote: »

Religion in primary schools is pretty light stuff- singing songs , listening to bible stories in child friendly way that teaches good morals i.e. Sharing, everybody's unique in their own with , different talents, caring for your neighbour respecting parents etc.. I'm not religious but think these are all great life lessons.. All kids think teacher knows best - no getting around this when they're very young.. My little man has s meltdown if we put coat on diff to way teacher thought them.. I wouldn't even have argument /disagree with her.. Isn't it great that she's opening up & sharing her day.. If she perceives you to be critical , she might not share as much.. Just listen & encourage or change subject & ask her about what stories they're reading in English etc .. Somebody else mentioned science for kids books , spend a set afternoon a week doing fun science activities .. She's getting the best of both worlds then.. I'm sure (like most Irish people) she'll learn to critique , question & just take the bits of religion she wants by the time she's a young teenager .. No need to worry at all. Also on the communion front , u know some schools that let children that haven't made communion step in for class photo so they're not left out & also family is invited to attend communion reception in school after church.. Could you get involved that way & maybe offer to help setting up for reception .. I'm sure school would appreciate help & your daughter would feel super important with her "special job ".. Also maybe dress daughter in something fancy that day up & get her hair done as a treat & ye could have a family day afterwards .. Problem solved , it's all about making happy memories for the kids 😊

Seriously?
Have you experienced religion in schools recently?
Some teachers are completely OTT.
I am all for kids learning about religions and religion but I do not want my 5 year old indoctrinated by teachers or my older child beginning to doubt evolution as her teacher is ramming religion down their throats every day. God made everything apparently.

Confused mum84

You must have been taught in an absolutely horrible school. I went to a school ran by nuns (lots of teachers were lay too). We had sex ed in 6th class. Learned all about world religions in second year (it was in the textbook) . Learned all about abuses if the church in history.. Students constantly challenged church views & debated things. Nobody was ever dismissed or indoctrined . Plus most young teachers now are probably not into religion much themselves so doubt the goal is to indoctrinate people . Crazy claims