Is Sinn Fein right? (The Stack Issue)

A Little Pony

tomwaterford wrote: »

ForstalDave wrote: »

And that there is why SF and GA have issues, the attitude towards people who have suffered such a loss is sickening

Id not give up if it was my Dad and id not give a F if people thought id never get anywhere either id still ask and push for answers till my dying day because id want to know

Aye....but you've not sworn an oath of silence/service and have the tgreat of death hanging over if you break it


Not in 1921 would the IRA give up tom Barry....they are hardly going to change their rules now??



And you'll have plenty in the country Whatll encourage you in your somewhat fruitless mission nonetheless

But he was never in the IRA?

Wheeliebin30

tomwaterford wrote: »

Aye....but you've not sworn an oath of silence/service and have the tgreat of death hanging over if you break it


Not in 1921 would the IRA give up tom Barry....they are hardly going to change their rules now??



And you'll have plenty in the country Whatll encourage you in your somewhat fruitless mission nonetheless

They have no problem asking people to tout on dissidents nowadays.

But when it comes to the provos they can't.

Makes no sense.

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

And there you have it in a nutshell Francie , until they aspire to represent all of us , including those who don't vote for them they will always remain a niche party

Any party in opposition is a niche party, the parties in our consensus government right now are niche parties, representing a rainbow of political ideologies.
None of them can claim to 'represent' us all, and I would think it overstates to claim otherwise.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Any party in opposition is a niche party, the parties in our consensus government right now are niche parties, representing a rainbow of political ideologies.
None of them can claim to 'represent' us all, and I would think it overstates to claim otherwise.

That is just one snapshot of the State today after one election though Francie , the other main parties always aspire to be in government , it is their raison d'etre , you could argue it is too much so .

I agree none can represent us all , I was overstating a bit there , but to represent or give the illusion of representing as much of the electorate as is required to become the government is the goal .

SF by always pandering to their own audience will always preclude achieving that goal .

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

His dad was murdered by those cowardly dirt bags. I don't blame him confronting the evil that is Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein.

Remember you are the guy who was advocating hanging a range of people some of whom who have had nothing proven against them.
What would you tell their children?

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

That is just one snapshot of the State today after one election though Francie , the other main parties always aspire to be in government , it is their raison d'etre , you could argue it is too much so .

I agree none can represent us all , I was overstating a bit there , but to represent or give the illusion of representing as much of the electorate as is required to become the government is the goal .

SF by always pandering to their own audience will always preclude achieving that goal .

Are you now 'understating' SF's upward trajectory?
FF voted with them yesterday on their motion.
They share power in NI.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Are you now 'understating' SF's upward trajectory?
FF voted with them yesterday on their motion.
They share power in NI.

Yeah but most people in the ROI don't really care about NI . I don't see an upward trajectory in the SF vote that is in any way compelling .

We are still in the grips of the longest and deepest recession in the history of the country , SF's main rivals Labour and FF imploded . FG committed hara-kiri with their arrogance .

Every day reveals a new crisis for the lower/middle class - this week it is the survival of defined benefit pension schemes , who know what next week will bring .

The ground couldn't be more fertile for SF , yet above a certain level the electorate have shown they will vote for anyone but SF ! Why is that ?

DO you realize FF could be back in power after the next election , and how sickening that is to a lot of people ?

A Little Pony

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

His dad was murdered by those cowardly dirt bags. I don't blame him confronting the evil that is Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein.

Remember you are the guy who was advocating hanging a range of people some of whom who have had nothing proven against them.
What would you tell their children?

So Michael Stone didn't murder people then? Martin Mcguinness didn't plan operations to murder people? It is all just in peoples minds then? That is the problem with Sinn Fein members, absolutely delusional.

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Yeah but most people in the ROI don't really care about NI . I don't see an upward trajectory in the SF vote that is in any way compelling .

We are still in the grips of the longest and deepest recession in the history of the country , SF's main rivals Labour and FF imploded . FG committed hara-kiri with their arrogance .

Another poster who speaks for 'most' people.

Every day reveals a new crisis for the lower/middle class - this week it is the survival of defined benefit pension schemes , who know what next week will bring .

The ground couldn't be more fertile for SF , yet above a certain level the electorate have shown they will vote for anyone but SF ! Why is that ?

DO you realize FF could be back in power after the next election , and how sickening that is to a lot of people ?

And who has done a deal with them to allow a government to function?

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Another poster who speaks for 'most' people.


And who has done a deal with them to allow a government to function?

Not claiming to speak for most based on nothing Francie - just count up the vote tally - tells you all you need to know .

I don't understand the relevance of your 2nd point .

FrancieBrady

A Little Pony wrote: »

So Michael Stone didn't murder people then? Martin Mcguinness didn't plan operations to murder people? It is all just in peoples minds then? That is the problem with Sinn Fein members, absolutely delusional.

They might have. But Adams didn't, you are hanging him because you just don't like him.
How many of the British army who killed innocents will you be hanging?

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Not claiming to speak for most based on nothing Francie - just count up the vote tally - tells you all you need to know .

I don't understand the relevance of your 2nd point .

A tally that is increasing in a country that has only ever allowed two parties swop power. Two parties that devour coalition parties and spit them out. But that is changing.

FG have no problems doing business with FF, they have agreed not to bring down the gov. FF are back in power.

ForstalDave

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

So Michael Stone didn't murder people then? Martin Mcguinness didn't plan operations to murder people? It is all just in peoples minds then? That is the problem with Sinn Fein members, absolutely delusional.

They might have. But Adams didn't, you are hanging him because you just don't like him.
How many of the British army who killed innocents will you be hanging?

Every single one, anyone involved in the murder of innocent people should be held accountable doesn't matter whether they are British army IRA or whatever

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A tally that is increasing in a country that has only ever allowed two parties swop power. Two parties that devour coalition parties and spit them out. But that is changing.

FG have no problems doing business with FF, they have agreed not to bring down the gov. FF are back in power.

I don't know what point you are trying to make , from your point of view you don't really care about FF/FG , the issue I am asking you is why in such an advantageous climate SF aren't reaping the benefits at the ballot box .

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

I don't know what point you are trying to make , from your point of view you don't really care about FF/FG , the issue I am asking you is why in such an advantageous climate SF aren't reaping the benefits at the ballot box .

Change will come slowly in what is basically a two party state. The important thing to note is that their share of the vote is falling election after election.

When you have somebody wanting to 'hang' politicians you can see the power of constant negativity. That is why Enda does it every time he is put under pressure in the Dail BTW no other reason, Michael too.

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Change will come slowly in what is basically a two party state. The important thing to note is that their share of the vote is falling election after election.

When you have somebody wanting to 'hang' politicians you can see the power of constant negativity. That is why Enda does it every time he is put under pressure in the Dail BTW no other reason, Michael too.

Come on Francie , when the conditions are right change comes shockingly fast .

SF since 2008 have had the greatest opportunity offered to any one party to progress in a major way . Why has that not happened and at this stage is probably unlikely to happen ?

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

Come on Francie , when the conditions are right change comes shockingly fast .

SF since 2008 have had the greatest opportunity offered to any one party to progress in a major way . Why has that not happened and at this stage is probably unlikely to happen ?

Conditioning is the word.

Ends knows the effect of this constant negative press. Don't cod yourself that it will stop when Adams retires. Did you see the furore of indignation when a young (she wasn't even born until after the GFA) Louth deputy raised her head above the parapet?

They are chipping away though and each pointless assault, which achieves nothing for victims or 'justice', makes the Irish people more aware of what is going on. I measure that in how quickly each one dies a death. Remember Maria Cahill, how much does Enda care now about that case?

marienbad

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Conditioning is the word.

Ends knows the effect of this constant negative press. Don't cod yourself that it will stop when Adams retires. Did you see the furore of indignation when a young (she wasn't even born until after the GFA) Louth deputy raised her head above the parapet?

They are chipping away though and each pointless assault, which achieves nothing for victims or 'justice', makes the Irish people more aware of what is going on. I measure that in how quickly each one dies a death. Remember Maria Cahill, how much does Enda care now about that case?

It is not conditioning , it is politics . Do you honestly believe the mudslinging only applies to SF . It has always been so . Get used to it . Weren't SF accused at one time of the organised tearing down of SDLP posters

I remember as a kid 77 being painted on O'Connell Street in Limerick at every election . And the most vile rumors being put about about Des O'Malley etc . It has always been so

FrancieBrady

marienbad wrote: »

It is not conditioning , it is politics . Do you honestly believe the mudslinging only applies to SF . It has always been so . Get used to it . Weren't SF accused at one time of the organised tearing down of SDLP posters

I remember as a kid 77 being painted on O'Connell Street in Limerick at every election . And the most vile rumors being put about about Des O'Malley etc . It has always been so

No doubt, SF play the political game. Not sure what your point is.

If you could show me a party that has the media inventing stuff and senior politicians making allegations they never have proof for (and their sheep swallow it and uniquely think it acceptable) then that would be a fair comparison.

Look at what Jude Collins had to say about why these stories don't have the same traction in NI. Remember that Michael and Enda won't be around much longer either.

Do you think it right that politicians should be making allegations they can't substantiate? What is your redline on this?

tomwaterford

marienbad wrote: »

Come on Francie , when the conditions are right change comes shockingly fast .

SF since 2008 have had the greatest opportunity offered to any one party to progress in a major way . Why has that not happened and at this stage is probably unlikely to happen ?

In 2008 SF had 4 ts I think it was??

As of now SF had 23 tds.....no other party in ireland has had >5 fold increase in its tds since then???


Is this not substantial progress????... or would you prefer them to become another party of the rich and abandon it's roots to appease you for votes???

Jawgap

tomwaterford wrote: »

In 2008 SF had 4 ts I think it was??

As of now SF had 23 tds.....no other party in ireland has had >5 fold increase in its tds since then???


Is this not substantial progress????... or would you prefer them to become another party of the rich and abandon it's roots to appease you for votes???

No doubt the number of TDs accumulated over the years is impressive - but a five-fold increase isn't as grand as it sounds when you are coming off a low base.

Plus, SF's objective at the last election wasn't to add 10 TDs or 20 TDs......it's objective was government......as Adams said in his speech to ard fheis in 2015.....

Sinn Féin wants a mandate for government. I believe we can win that mandate. Sinn Féin will not prop up either a Fine Gael or a Fianna Fáil government.

Sinn Féin wants to lead the next Government. I am confident that when it comes to making a choice, the people will make the change.

.....they not only failed in that objective, they were thoroughly outmanoeuvred when the government was eventually formed and FF managed to get themselves into a position of being in opposition (and shutting SF out of that role) and having significant influence over implemented policy.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand......I think the IT sums it up fairly neatly today in their editorial......Adams has, as I suggested earlier in the thread, a credibility problem.....

Stack directly contradicts Adams’s account. He is adamant – “absolutely categoric”– he never mentioned any names to Adams in the course of “five or six” meetings between the two men.

There are two alternative plausible explanations. The one, that Stack’s memory has failed him. The other, that Adams invented the exchange. Yet, why would he do that? Perhaps because otherwise he might have to explain where and how he got that limited information, and what else he knows about the case. Those questions still need to be answered along with the identities of the IRA leader who met Stack with Adams, and the driver who facilitated the meeting.

Adams has brought this latest crisis of credibility upon himself. It stems like the others that have dogged his career since Sinn Féin embraced parliamentary politics – from his one-time IRA membership, and from his prevarication over the Northern Bank raid, over what he knew about the killings of Jean McConville and Robert McCartney, to mention but two, and over the rape of Maíría Cahill. It arises from his personal decision, unlike party colleagues, not to fudge but to explicitly deny crucial parts of his history. They have caught up with him, as they inevitably would.

OMD

tomwaterford wrote: »

would you prefer them to become another party of the rich and abandon it's roots to appease you for votes???

SF are arm in arm with other "parties of the rich" reducing local property tax which overwhelmingly benefits the wealthier in society at the expense of services for the less well off.

You want us to judge SF not by what they actually do (favour the rich) but by what they say others should do. Bollocks.

tomwaterford

OMD wrote: »

SF are arm in arm with other "parties of the rich" reducing local property tax which overwhelmingly benefits the wealthier in society at the expense of services for the less well off.

You want us to judge SF not by what they actually do (favour the rich) but by what they say others should do. Bollocks.

All the while forgetting the proposed wealth tax :rolleyes:

#pooreffort
Sure look it.....if your going to tell half truths you'll only get laughed at

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

No doubt the number of TDs accumulated over the years is impressive - but a five-fold increase isn't as grand as it sounds when you are coming off a low base.

Plus, SF's objective at the last election wasn't to add 10 TDs or 20 TDs......it's objective was government......as Adams said in his speech to ard fheis in 2015.....

What was FF's 'objective', or Labour's?
When going into an election what does any leader tell his supporters/party members...I think you are being a bit too disingenuous about political rhetoric tbh.

.....they not only failed in that objective, they were thoroughly outmanoeuvred when the government was eventually formed and FF managed to get themselves into a position of being in opposition (and shutting SF out of that role) and having significant influence over implemented policy.

So they should just fold up camp and give up? The project has failed after 20 years? (I think that is FG FF's wet dream tbh] Martin and Kenny know the danger posed to their power swapping by the rise of SF, that is why you are seeing these fabrications and allegations, they know they work on a certain subset of voters. Some of them can get whipped into a frenzy were they would happily hang people without trial or proof, happy that there is no smoke without fire. Dangerous stuff.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand......I think the IT sums it up fairly neatly today in their editorial......Adams has, as I suggested earlier in the thread, a credibility problem.....

I love these faux innocence questions posed by our so called journalists,
'How did he get the info?'

How do they think, he got the info? Why do they think that Adams doesn't have more info than you or I about some of the events of the conflict? He was at the heart of it for it's entire duratuon for christ's sake!

Why doesn't a 'journalist' do a bit of work for a change and stop climbing on to high moral ground to pontificate and lecture and go find out from former IRA commanders and soldiers, what they think might happen if Adams starts fingering participants in the conflict or starts to break confidences and what that would mean to victims ever finding out what happened. That would be useful to this debate. High moral ground faux outrage and condemnation never achieved a jot in the entire conflict why should it achieve anything now?

An RTE journalist was badgering Matt Carthy (a child when this happened) this morning with the stupid and high moral ground question, 'The south wasn't involved in the conflict, this killing was no different to a gangland killing?' speel, Carthy responded that 'it was different'.
To my mind he should have been stronger in that, if people now think that the south wasn't involved then journalists are involved in re-writing history...it secured the border on behalf of the British government and imprisoned activists in the south and took part in suppressing and intimidating whole communities along the border and beyond (see the Heavy Gang, see censorship etc) and did much more on behalf of the British, it ignored what was happening in NI and contributed to it descending into conflict and war, while it had a constitutional imperative to protect and a claim to NI.
It's complete naive stupidity, not to mention sanctimonious claptrap. to suggest 'the south wasn't involved'.

OMD

tomwaterford wrote: »

All the while forgetting the proposed wealth tax :rolleyes:

#pooreffort
Sure look it.....if your going to tell half truths you'll only get laughed at

Proposed what??

I am taking about what SF are actually doing. Not what they might do in the future, not what they say others should do.

SF have implemented tax breaks that favour the wealthiest in society overwhelmingly. This tax cut is being paid for by either reducing services or not providing services for the poorest in society.

weldoninhio

A Little Pony wrote: »

So Michael Stone didn't murder people then? Martin Mcguinness didn't plan operations to murder people? It is all just in peoples minds then? That is the problem with Sinn Fein members, absolutely delusional.

Would you have hanged Nelson Mandela??

Some of the nonsense on here is ridiculous. As for what has Sinn Fein done since the GFA? They've brought closure to families of 12 of the 16 of the disappeared and are still working on the other 4. What have FF/FG done to help Irish citizens of the North?? Or the South for that matter??

450+ suicides per year, they cut the mental health budget.

Alcohol consumption dropping year on year, put in minimum pricing to help the Vintners Cartel.

Yet people will still vote for them. No wonder the country is in the shyte.

Jawgap

weldoninhio wrote: »

Would you have hanged Nelson Mandela??

Some of the nonsense on here is ridiculous. As for what has Sinn Fein done since the GFA? They've brought closure to families of 12 of the 16 of the disappeared and are still working on the other 4. What have FF/FG done to help Irish citizens of the North?? Or the South for that matter??

450+ suicides per year, they cut the mental health budget.

Alcohol consumption dropping year on year, put in minimum pricing to help the Vintners Cartel.

Yet people will still vote for them. No wonder the country is in the shyte.

How do they deserve credit for that when it was an organisation who enjoys their unconditional support that killed most, if not all, of them in the first place???

That really demonstrates just how warped SF logic is.

And seriously, I'd still well clear of mentioning suicide and SF in the same sentence......don't they control the Dept of Health in NI? Are they not in government there?

Suicide Among the Ceasefire Babies

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

How do they deserve credit for that when it was an organisation who enjoys their unconditional support that killed most, if not all, of them in the first place???

That really demonstrates just how warped SF logic is.

And seriously, I'd still well clear of mentioning suicide and SF in the same sentence......don't they control the Dept of Health in NI? Are they not in government there?

Suicide Among the Ceasefire Babies

Which neatly sums up the no win, 'we will condemn no matter what is done' mindset of some in this debate.

Shocking comment there at the end Jawgap. You read that article thinking how can I infer that SF are somehow solely to blame for these stats? 'Callous' isn't an adequate word sometimes.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What was FF's 'objective', or Labour's?
When going into an election what does any leader tell his supporters/party members...I think you are being a bit too disingenuous about political rhetoric tbh.

......

Oh right, I see.....we should take SF's rhetoric literally when they deny knowledge and circle the wagons to protect Adams, but only when not taking it literally helps with circling the wagons and protecting Adams.....got it.

You need to bear in mind that the party who absolutely trashed this country in most unimaginably and reckless way possible has managed, in the space of a single election cycle to engineer their own redemption and that despite everything they did, people still prefer them to SF......that either says a lot about the electorate, FF or SF - or maybe all three.

From my understanding FF's objectives at the last election were to re-build and, importantly, re-establish some semblance of a base in Dublin. Their objective wasn't government - but I reckon it will be for the next time.

SF were looking at government, as Adams's speech and the motion passed at the 2015 ard fheis....

This Ard Fheis notes that:
• The political landscape in Ireland and across Europe is changing.
• There is the potential to break the monopoly on government in the 26 Counties which has been held by Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil since the foundation of the state.
• Sinn Féin is now the biggest party on the island and is seeking a mandate to deliver a fair recovery, to safeguard public services, to deliver a republic for all and a united Ireland.
• Sinn Féin will not go into a Fianna Fáil-led or Fine Gael-led government following the general election.

This Ard Fheis commits Sinn Féin to form broad alliances with like-minded parties and independents to ensure that austerity is opposed North and South, that there is a fair recovery, and to maximise the potential for an anti-austerity government in the 26 Counties.

Eoin O'Broin's commentary on this motion (published on the party's website so one can reasonably assume it's the 'party line')

Motion 52 sets out clearly a progressive strategy for coalition.

If Sinn Féin can lead a government that invests in a fair recovery, in secure and well paid jobs, in universal public services, in strong and vibrant communities, in a real republic that is committed to ending poverty and inequality – then and only then should we be willing to take up residence in Government buildings.

They increased their seat numbers, but that wasn't the objective - they failed to get into government and failed to even become the opposition.

And as for the seat numbers thing, yes the increase was impressive in the context of the base they were coming off, but in the context of what they were aiming for not so great......plenty of commentators thought they were on for 30 to 35 (or even more) seats. Hell, if you look on boards you'll see plenty of posts from me saying they were going to get over 30 (I think at one point I even suggested 37 seats for them).

Anyway, as the current and latest controversy shows, SF will have to resolve the 'Adams Paradox' at some point or be condemned to trying to manage slow growth for this and maybe even the next election cycle.......Adams stays the party remains unified.....he goes it splits......but staying only brings more issues like this.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which neatly sums up the no win, 'we will condemn no matter what is done' mindset of some in this debate.

Shocking comment there at the end Jawgap. You read that article thinking how can I infer that SF are somehow solely to blame for these stats? 'Callous' isn't an adequate word sometimes.

No, but the point seemed to be that the people in control are responsible for the outcomes they create (an argument I would tend to agree with).....

What have FF/FG done to help Irish citizens of the North?? Or the South for that matter??

450+ suicides per year, they cut the mental health budget.

......by that logic, SF are responsible for the health outcomes in NI given they control the DoH there and have done so in past (even if there were also other unionist party politicians in that office)......

Seth Brundle

weldoninhio wrote: »

What have FF/FG done to help Irish citizens of the North?? Or the South for that matter??

450+ suicides per year, they cut the mental health budget.

Alcohol consumption dropping year on year, put in minimum pricing to help the Vintners Cartel.

Yet people will still vote for them. No wonder the country is in the shyte.

...and yet the majority of people choose anyone but SF.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Oh right, I see.....we should take SF's rhetoric literally when they deny knowledge and circle the wagons to protect Adams, but only when not taking it literally helps with circling the wagons and protecting Adams.....got it.

You need to bear in mind that the party who absolutely trashed this country in most unimaginably and reckless way possible has managed, in the space of a single election cycle to engineer their own redemption and that despite everything they did, people still prefer them to SF......that either says a lot about the electorate, FF or SF - or maybe all three.

From my understanding FF's objectives at the last election were to re-build and, importantly, re-establish some semblance of a base in Dublin. Their objective wasn't government - but I reckon it will be for the next time.

SF were looking at government, as Adams's speech and the motion passed at the 2015 ard fheis....



Eoin O'Broin's commentary on this motion (published on the party's website so one can reasonably assume it's the 'party line')



They increased their seat numbers, but that wasn't the objective - they failed to get into government and failed to even become the opposition.

And as for the seat numbers thing, yes the increase was impressive in the context of the base they were coming off, but in the context of what they were aiming for not so great......plenty of commentators thought they were on for 30 to 35 (or even more) seats. Hell, if you look on boards you'll see plenty of posts from me saying they were going to get over 30 (I think at one point I even suggested 37 seats for them).

Anyway, as the current and latest controversy shows, SF will have to resolve the 'Adams Paradox' at some point or be condemned to trying to manage slow growth for this and maybe even the next election cycle.......Adams stays the party remains unified.....he goes it splits......but staying only brings more issues like this.

I could post you stuff from other parties who failed to achieve what they set out to achieve but what would be the point?
I set out there on google to try and find a party talking down their objectives before an election, and guess what, I couldn't find it anywhere.
Why SF, a political party, should talk up their objectives any differently I cannot fathom.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

No, but the point seemed to be that the people in control are responsible for the outcomes they create (an argument I would tend to agree with).....



......by that logic, SF are responsible for the health outcomes in NI given they control the DoH there and have done so in past (even if there were also other unionist party politicians in that office)......

Stop trying to water down the petty inference you made, or make it somebody else's fault you said it. We got it.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I could post you stuff from other parties who failed to achieve what they set out to achieve but what would be the point?
I set out there on google to try and find a party talking down their objectives before an election, and guess what, I couldn't find it anywhere.
Why SF, a political party, should talk up their objectives any differently I cannot fathom.

I agree, what would be the point of posting about other parties on a thread about SF.

The thread diverged from the Stack issue when someone mentioned their election performance - or lack thereof.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, the implication from Ferris seems to be that Stack was murdered for simply doing his job.....

Sinn Féin TD Martin Ferris has revealed why IRA murdered Stack

FrancieBrady

kbannon wrote: »

...and yet the majority of people choose anyone but SF.

You can say the same thing about FG and FF. The 'majority' didn't vote for either of them. Their combined vote has fallen election on election meaning neither of them have been able to win an overall majority.
The landscape is changing, hence the kneejerk scare tactics. Look at the last two big controversies and allegations sources, Maria Cahill, ends up as Senator on the nomination of the Labour coalition party, a party under pressure from SF encroachment into it's vote. A party quite able to accept that she had 'put her past behind her, despite that admission have to be 'sought/forced' out of her.

Austin Stack - a member of FF, the next party in line to have votes taken by a rising SF.

Not hard to see a picture emerging here, is it?

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Stop trying to water down the petty inference you made, or make it somebody else's fault you said it. We got it.

I know I said it. I'm not denying I said it.

.....in fact I found that article when I went looking for the CAIN Report on mental health and suicides in NI discussed in the context the Troubles.

I thought it summed up the issues in a more cogent fashion than a bunch of older drier stats would have.

Fact is, mental health support services in both jurisdictions are a shambles and overly reliant on the charity sector - FF, FG, and Labour as the recent parties of government in the Republic are responsible for that, just as SF and the DUP are responsible in NI.

Is an SF politician not Minister for Health in NI at he moment? Are SF not in government in NI?......and if the government here is responsible for the appalling state of the mental health services in the Republic, is the government of NI not responsible for the state of the mental health services there?

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

I agree, what would be the point of posting about other parties on a thread about SF.

The thread diverged from the Stack issue when someone mentioned their election performance - or lack thereof.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, the implication from Ferris seems to be that Stack was murdered for simply doing his job.....

Sinn Féin TD Martin Ferris has revealed why IRA murdered Stack

If we could have a proper truth process, perhaps the idea that all officers of the state (north and south) were 'just doing their jobs' would be demolished. Because I could contribute personal testimony that a good many of them were not.
Amnesty International did not get involved in criticising the South's behaviour for no reason.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

If we could have a proper truth process, perhaps the idea that all officers of the state (north and south) were 'just doing their jobs' would be demolished. Because I could contribute personal testimony that a good many of them were not.
Amnesty International did not get involved in criticising the South's behaviour for no reason.

Look, no one trusts SF, and definitely no one trusts SF with Adams as leader....the best thing they could do is do something that shows they can actually be trusted to participate in such a process, even if those processes tend not to deliver what they promise.....

Do Truth Commissions work?
The evidence is inconclusive. The experience has been that expectations of truth commissions are almost always greater than what they can eventually achieve. Others have testified to a sense of empowerment, confidence, closure and security.

blackwhite

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which neatly sums up the no win, 'we will condemn no matter what is done' mindset of some in this debate.

Shocking comment there at the end Jawgap. You read that article thinking how can I infer that SF are somehow solely to blame for these stats? 'Callous' isn't an adequate word sometimes.

Funny how you take no issue with your buddy trying to pin the suicide stats in the south on the current govt though.

Transparent as always...

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

I know I said it. I'm not denying I said it.

.....in fact I found that article when I went looking for the CAIN Report on mental health and suicides in NI discussed in the context the Troubles.

I thought it summed up the issues in a more cogent fashion than a bunch of older drier stats would have.

Fact is, mental health support services in both jurisdictions are a shambles and overly reliant on the charity sector - FF, FG, and Labour as the recent parties of government in the Republic are responsible for that, just as SF and the DUP are responsible in NI.

Is an SF politician not Minister for Health in NI at he moment? Are SF not in government in NI?......and if the government here is responsible for the appalling state of the mental health services in the Republic, is the government of NI not responsible for the state of the mental health services there?

Your comment was callous and cheap, end of. It doesn't matter what the other person said to respond the way you did was childish.

Jawgap wrote: »

Look, no one trusts SF, and definitely no one trusts SF with Adams as leader....the best thing they could do is do something that shows they can actually be trusted to participate in such a process, even if those processes tend not to deliver what they promise.....

Again with the 'no-one'. That isn't true, SF have a respectable support figure that is challenging the traditional voting pattern here.

No process is going to be perfect, but anything would be better than shambles of time wasting, energy sapping baseless and unprovable rounds of allegations like these.
They have time and again gone nowhere and fizzle out.

FrancieBrady

blackwhite wrote: »

Funny how you take no issue with your buddy trying to pin the suicide stats in the south on the current govt though.

Transparent as always...

My buddy?

He named the two parties who swap power in this state and a list of things they have done or haven't done.

Jawgap responded by attempting to place SF as solely responsible in the North and is desperately trying to claw back from that position without simply apologising for it.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Your comment was callous and cheap, end of. It doesn't matter what the other person said to respond the way you did was childish.


Again with the 'no-one'. That isn't true, SF have a respectable support figure that is challenging the traditional voting pattern here.

No process is going to be perfect, but anything would be better than shambles of time wasting, energy sapping baseless and unprovable rounds of allegations like these.
They have time and again gone nowhere and fizzle out.

Responding with a news article to illustrate a point is "callous and cheap"? OK then.

And yes I was overly general when I said no one trusts SF, but I think it's fair to say that outside their supporters very few trust them - and certainly not enough to make a truth commission a worthwhile proposition.

If anything, the current controversy around Brian Stack's murder for doing his job just reminds people how SF cannot be trusted - you'd even have to wonder at this stage if they knew what the truth was.

Seth Brundle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

You can say the same thing about FG and FF. The 'majority' didn't vote for either of them. Their combined vote has fallen election on election meaning neither of them have been able to win an overall majority.

I never said otherwise but I'm not posting how wonderful they are.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The landscape is changing, hence the kneejerk scare tactics. Look at the last two big controversies and allegations sources, Maria Cahill, ends up as Senator on the nomination of the Labour coalition party, a party under pressure from SF encroachment into it's vote. A party quite able to accept that she had 'put her past behind her, despite that admission have to be 'sought/forced' out of her.

I agree that a change was required. However people looked around and chose an alternative from a poor selection. More right minded people are aware however that SF's daft economics will not provide them with a secure future.
As for Maria Cahill, she was utterly failed by members of SF and continues to be abused by them. Your usage of her shows this.

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Austin Stack - a member of FF, the next party in line to have votes taken by a rising SF.

Not hard to see a picture emerging here, is it?

Yeah, Stack is only interested in a political career in FF despite criticising MM politicising the issue yesterday. Also, Stacks motives do not negate the fact that SF's piece of dirt leader is still protecting murderers and rapists.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

My buddy?

He named the two parties who swap power in this state and a list of things they have done or haven't done.

Jawgap responded by attempting to place SF as solely responsible in the North and is desperately trying to claw back from that position without simply apologising for it.

Just so we're clear - I'm not trying to claw anything back......FG as the party who hold the Ministry here are accountable for the state of mental health services in the Republic, just as SF who hold the ministry in NI are accountable for mental health services there.

The link to the article provides discussion around the mental health legacy of the Troubles and the failure to address it.....

Jawgap wrote: »

........

And seriously, I'd still well clear of mentioning suicide and SF in the same sentence......don't they control the Dept of Health in NI? Are they not in government there?

Suicide Among the Ceasefire Babies

FrancieBrady

kbannon wrote: »

I never said otherwise but I'm not posting how wonderful they are.

Neither am I, I made the point posts ago, that I only support some of their policy, like I support some of other parties policies. A type of voter that is getting more common here, adding to FG FF woes no doubt.

I agree that a change was required. However people looked around and chose an alternative from a poor selection. More right minded people are aware however that SF's daft economics will not provide them with a secure future.
As for Maria Cahill, she was utterly failed by members of SF and continues to be abused by them. Your usage of her shows this.

What wit of good did the whole debacle do Maria Cahill's case, if justice for what happened to her was the test?
Her alleged abuser/rapist still walks the streets and the likelihood of her ever getting him in a courtroom is nil. That is the fault of those who encouraged her to go public and seek the support of party leaders who could never actually help her in that quest as we have seen. She has been shoehorned into the Seanad and is now in the process of being forgotten by those who so ardently pledged to get her justice.

Yeah, Stack is only interested in a political career in FF despite criticising MM politicising the issue yesterday. Also, Stacks motives do not negate the fact that SF's piece of dirt leader is still protecting murderers and rapists.

Stack knows he shot his bolt on a political career, he is attacking Adams publically without giving a right to reply (press conference stunt) and biting the hand that got him the exposure by digging this case up again.
In other parlance, he is lashing out.

FrancieBrady

Jawgap wrote: »

Just so we're clear - I'm not trying to claw anything back......FG as the party who hold the Ministry here are accountable for the state of mental health services in the Republic, just as SF who hold the ministry in NI are accountable for mental health services there.

The link to the article provides discussion around the mental health legacy of the Troubles and the failure to address it.....

Stop digging.

The control of Health services in NI as you very well know is not vested solely in SF.

In the south they have been controlled by FF or FG virtually since the foundation of the state. The two parties mentioned in the post you responded to.

A Little Pony

ForstalDave wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

So Michael Stone didn't murder people then? Martin Mcguinness didn't plan operations to murder people? It is all just in peoples minds then? That is the problem with Sinn Fein members, absolutely delusional.

They might have. But Adams didn't, you are hanging him because you just don't like him.
How many of the British army who killed innocents will you be hanging?

Every single one, anyone involved in the murder of innocent people should be held accountable doesn't matter whether they are British army IRA or whatever

The Bloody Sunday soldiers who murdered innocent civilians should have faced the firing squad if you ask me. I can't believe none have faced any justice for what they did.

Seth Brundle

FrancieBrady wrote: »

What wit of good did the whole debacle do Maria Cahill's case, if justice for what happened to her was the test?
Her alleged abuser/rapist still walks the streets and the likelihood of her ever getting him in a courtroom is nil. That is the fault of those who encouraged her to go public and seek the support of party leaders who could never actually help her in that quest as we have seen. She has been shoehorned into the Seanad and is now in the process of being forgotten by those who so ardently pledged to get her justice.

Cahill chance of getting the perpetrator was surely dashed when the SF & IRA scum filled with their own self importance held a kangaroo court and failed to use the legal system.
How many more children have been abused because of their actions?

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Stack knows he shot his bolt on a political career, he is attacking Adams publically without giving a right to reply (press conference stunt) and biting the hand that got him the exposure by digging this case up again.
In other parlance, he is lashing out.

You're assuming he wants to advance his political career firstly.
Secondly Adams is choosing not to reply. By his own admission, it took him three years to provide names to the gardai. Adams appears to have better things to do than spend a few minutes helping with a murder inquiry.
As foryour allegation that Stack is lashing out, if my father was murdered for doing his job and his killers were protected by a terrorist organisation and also what is claimed to be a legitimate political party, you can be sure I'd be lashing out with all I could give!

FrancieBrady

kbannon wrote: »

Cahill chance of getting the perpetrator was surely dashed when the SF & IRA scum filled with their own self importance held a kangaroo court and failed to use the legal system.
How many more children have been abused because of their actions?

Cahill went to the IRA looking for them to deal with him.
There was no police force Republicans could trust or go to. (see Maria Cahill herself talking about this)

You're assuming he wants to advance his political career firstly.
Secondly Adams is choosing not to reply. By his own admission, it took him three years to provide names to the gardai. Adams appears to have better things to do than spend a few minutes helping with a murder inquiry.
As foryour allegation that Stack is lashing out, if my father was murdered for doing his job and his killers were protected by a terrorist organisation and also what is claimed to be a legitimate political party, you can be sure I'd be lashing out with all I could give!

He joined FF did he not? Was secretary of his local cumann.
Adams has clearly spelt out why he cannot give the name. You are free to accept it or not.
The IRA told Stack that they had disciplined the killers. The IRA have been very clear that they will not be handing over any information until all parties to the conflict are around a table disclosing what they did and what they know. SF have been clear too on numerous occasions on this.
You can accept that or not as well.
But you cannot say that this is a surprise every time it comes up in a game of political football.

Jawgap

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Stop digging.

The control of Health services in NI as you very well know is not vested solely in SF.

In the south they have been controlled by FF or FG virtually since the foundation of the state. The two parties mentioned in the post you responded to.

Yes and one could say the same of the health services here......and yet people are quick to hold the FG minister for health to account for the gross deficiencies in the system in the Republic but the SF minister for health gets a pass?

And again with the harking back to history.....you know whe SF engage in appeals to historic it just makes them sound pre-historic.

And of course SF would rather not discuss health issues in NI because then people would question their performance in the light of having the largest per capita health spend of the UK countries.