Rachel McKinnon wins Worlds gold at UCI masters track cycling

TheBoyConor

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Well you wouldn’t have the legal backing to be Leo messi. Although I suppose you could change your name legally you wouldn’t be him.

The nature of the legislation on gender recognition is fairly simple - adults can legally change gender. After that the law must treat them as that gender.

Firstly I'd like to say that I have no beef with LGB people. Be gay, bi, whatever, more power to you and you should have the same opportunities open to you as anyone else. You should be treated *equally*.

But I have a serious issue with the "T". Personally, I think it and all it's extensions such as gender fluid, third gender etc etc, are full on bolloxology . And I suspect that there is a certain subset of the T group that for whatever reason, have problems or difficult upbringings in one fashion or another and they subconsiously arrived to think " you know if I was a woman/man instead of a man/woman I wouldn't have encountered these problems" and it follows that "if I transitioned to the other gender all my problems would be solved".

I don't believe in transgenderism and I never will. I genuinely think it's all a form of mental illness. I mean now we have some parents of small children encouraging their 4/5/6 year old child when they suddenly declare that they are trans. It is a disgrace.

terrydel

nee wrote: »

As a woman who races at national level (and it's on possession of a few medals, even a gold this year!) I have absolutely no problem with her winning this medal. I have no problems competing against a trans woman. None whatsoever.
Those calling it a mockery of sport :rolleyes:.
Being a trans person is a decision no one would willingly choose. It's an absolutely devastating, agonising journey beyond most ciss people's comprehension (see Brian's post above).
There have been many excellent articles about why testosterone levels in trans people need to be at a certain level to maintain their health, in particular by a Canadian woman going through it at ther moment, I think she was a consultant for the uci on these matters?
Thinking it's a simple matter of a super competitive person just waking up one morning and deciding to delete as a woman to win boggles my mind. It's so ignorant of the actual issues at play it's laughable.
All the men getting their knickers in a twist about an issue that will never affect them would be better served by sending their energy supporting women's sport, investing in it and helping it to grow so we can attempt to start level the playing field in terms of support and investment v the men's equivalent.

I dont think any reasonable person is arguing the points you are making.
The crux of the issue is do her circumstances give her an unfair advantage and therefore put other competitors at a distinct disadvantage. Sport is pointless in my view if the rules dont at least encourage a level playing field.
Life is tough, just because theyve been thru this devastating life change, does that automatically mean they have the right to a huge headstart against others who've worked their backsides off to get where they are, on the assumption that the rules were at least trying to enable them to compete on a level playing field?
If trans people competing in female sports have an advantage as a result of circumstance/genetics since birth etc, and I believe it does, why should that simply be ignored for risk of causing offence?

Brian?

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Firstly I'd like to say that I have no beef with LGB people. Be gay, bi, whatever, more power to you and you should have the same opportunities open to you as anyone else. You should be treated *equally*.

But I have a serious issue with the "T". Personally, I think it and all it's extensions such as gender fluid, third gender etc etc, are full on bolloxology . And I suspect that there is a certain subset of the T group that for whatever reason, have problems or difficult upbringings in one fashion or another and they subconsiously arrived to think " you know if I was a woman/man instead of a man/woman I wouldn't have encountered these problems" and it follows that "if I transitioned to the other gender all my problems would be solved".

I don't believe in transgenderism and I never will. I genuinely think it's all a form of mental illness. I mean now we have some parents of small children encouraging their 4/5/6 year old child when they suddenly declare that they are trans. It is a disgrace.

You’re free to believe what you want. It doesn’t mean you’re right. In this case you’re completely wrong.

Chips Lovell

TheBoyConor. That's enough trolling. Don't post on this thread again.

marieholmfan

Would a different pelvic structure not give Transwomen a significant advantage for the foreseeable future?

eeeee

I think this is a good article explaining the issues affecting these women in cycling:

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/kristen-worley-canadian-cyclist-fighting-sports-gender-rules-and-supporting-caster-semenya-273796

GreeBo

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

There wouldn't be enough compeititors to justify separate races for TG cylclists at this level.

We are talking about a condition that effects 0.03% of the human race.

So what though?

If there aren't enough people for a race then no race happens.
If a club doesnt have enough kids under 12 then they have no under 12's team.
You dont just let them play against the under 8's instead.

eeeee

terrydel wrote: »

I dont think any reasonable person is arguing the points you are making.
The crux of the issue is do her circumstances give her an unfair advantage and therefore put other competitors at a distinct disadvantage. Sport is pointless in my view if the rules dont at least encourage a level playing field.
Life is tough, just because theyve been thru this devastating life change, does that automatically mean they have the right to a huge headstart against others who've worked their backsides off to get where they are, on the assumption that the rules were at least trying to enable them to compete on a level playing field?
If trans people competing in female sports have an advantage as a result of circumstance/genetics since birth etc, and I believe it does, why should that simply be ignored for risk of causing offence?

But what circumstances? Growing up in a stable, supportive home gives you a much bigger boost than almost anything else, is that an unfair circumstantial advantage? years and years of psychological torment and serious physical effects of same aren't doing anyone any favours.
Some people are genetically more suited to some things more than others- it's the Yates's slightness an unfair physical advantage over Marcel kittel's bulk going uphill? And visa versa on the flat?
There are more variants within each ciss gender than between a ciss woman and a trans woman. Look into the hormonal regimes of trans people, really have a look, and then see if it's still an advantage.
Arguments are made about bone size etc. I would argue that there are as big of differences between say Kristen Wild and Maya Abbott proportionally if you break of down.

Hurrache

GreeBo wrote: »

So what though?

If there aren't enough people for a race then no race happens.
If a club doesnt have enough kids under 12 then they have no under 12's team.
You dont just let them play against the under 8's instead.

Not a great analogy as that does happen in a way, not enough members for say a separate under 9 and under 12 team, so the under 12 team essentially becomes a mishmash of under 9's and 12's in order to get one team out there.

brocbrocach

Accepted that transgenderism is a real thing. Accepted that those who go through it don't do it lightly and that it entails huge sacrifice and commitment. Accepted that doing it to win "easy medals" would be beyond stupid and isn't really a factor.

Why though would that tiny minority of people (0.03% of human race, it seems) feel the need to get involved in sports so often, where the long-term outcome seems to be a lot of pain and a highlighting of the differences between that person and the grouping they're going to spend the next 60-70 years being part of?
Is 10 or so years of (surely limited) personal satisfaction worth the hassle/anguish/humiliation/conflict/notoriety they bring in to what must already be fairly trying circumstances?
Even from a purely physiological point of view, achieving or cementing the transformation required at the same time as taking part in top level sports must be counterproductive.
Personally I think there must be another ambition driving these athletes. They're proving themselves against a yardstick in their own heads.

terrydel

nee wrote: »

But what circumstances? Growing up in a stable, supportive home gives you a much bigger boost than almost anything else, is that an unfair circumstantial advantage? years and years of psychological torment and serious physical effects of same aren't doing anyone any favours.
Some people are genetically more suited to some things more than others- it's the Yates's slightness an unfair physical advantage over Marcel kittel's bulk going uphill? And visa versa on the flat?
There are more variants within each ciss gender than between a ciss woman and a trans woman. Look into the hormonal regimes of trans people, really have a look, and then see if it's still an advantage.
Arguments are made about bone size etc. I would argue that there are as big of differences between say Kristen Wild and Maya Abbott proportionally if you break of down.

The circumstance I was talking about was the fact they were born as a man and all the physiological benefits that entails, as I said previously, I'm by male standards up to nothing on a bike when compared to even average racers here in Ireland, and yet as just an example, only 8 women are faster up the Wicklow gap than I am (I can probably highlight loads of examples like this), and all my life I've been a pretty dreadful athlete and have only been cycling for 6 years, never racing. So to my mind, the simple fact of being a man immediately bestows me a huge advantage over women re. the physical activity of cycling. You cannot deny that male genetics confer a huge advantage in terms of athletic ability generally, that can only be bridged illegally by non trans women.
Unless it can be unequivically shown that post op all or the vast majority of those advantages have been taken back, then it just is not fair on the 99%.
As for the differences between climbers/sprinters etc, isnt that why they have KOM/green jersey cats, and the physiology of these athletes is apparent to all from day 1 essentially.
I'm only asking for fairness for the vast majority, who have worked their asses off and now seen the goalposts moved completely. I dont see you defending them at all, just the tiny minority, which in itself is noble, but to ignore the welfare of the majority to do so is wrong.

eeeee

terrydel wrote: »

The circumstance I was talking about was the fact they were born as a man and all the physiological benefits that entails, as I said previously, I'm by male standards up to nothing on a bike when compared to even average racers here in Ireland, and yet as just an example, only 8 women are faster up the Wicklow gap than I am (I can probably highlight loads of examples like this), and all my life I've been a pretty dreadful athlete and have only been cycling for 6 years, never racing. So to my mind, the simple fact of being a man immediately bestows me a huge advantage over women re. the physical activity of cycling. You cannot deny that male genetics confer a huge advantage in terms of athletic ability generally, that can only be bridged illegally by non trans women.
I'm only asking for fairness for the vast majority, who have worked their asses off and now seen the goalposts moved completely. I dont see you defending them at all, just the tiny minority, which in itself is noble, but to ignore the welfare of the majority to do so is wrong.

But when you look into the hormonal regimes trans people have to go through these physiological advantages are almost entirely negated.
I suggest you have a read of the literature.


To the other poster talking about the high proportion of trans women competing in sports, there are fcuk all trans people competing in sport. Those that want to are completely entitled to do so imo

cruizer101

nee wrote: »

But when you look into the hormonal regimes trans people have to go through these physiological advantages are almost entirely negated.
I suggest you have a read of the literature.

Really?? Their bone structure changes? Their lung capacity reduces?
Love to read the literature that shows that

robyntmorton

I'm going to declare firstly that I have a horse in this race: I am a transgender woman.

With that in mind, it is hard for me to not show some bias in this, but the level of vitriol thrown at this person, and any other trans person who dares to follow their passion for their sport, is quite frankly disgusting.

She competed, and won, within the rules that were laid down by UCI for the sport (as far as we know, and I'm sure anyone winning a rainbow jersey will be checked to see that they won it fairly)

We can not hold this against her. What we can do, as I have said many times before, is to question whether the rules themselves are fair. This can only be done by scientific discovery, and not by shouting the loudest that this is wrong. And again, as has been said before, the difficulty with this is that there are so few elite athletes who are trans. With so little data available, it is nearly impossible to give an accurate assessment, and we can't exclude them from competing altogether, or segregate them into a trans only category, because that totally removes the motivation for them to take part, and for the data to be collected allowing a full assessment to be made.

On the other hand, do segregate them into trans only events. I'd be a shoe in for gold then!

Subcomandante Marcos

nee wrote: »

But when you look into the hormonal regimes trans people have to go through these physiological advantages are almost entirely negated.

That just is not true though. It's not even close to being reality.

Subcomandante Marcos

nee wrote: »

To the other poster talking about the high proportion of trans women competing in sports, there are fcuk all trans people competing in sport. Those that want to are completely entitled to do so imo

In all sports? What about boxing or MMA or any other sport where bone density, muscle mass, strength and everything else that comes with a male body are a huge advantage?

You're ok with another Fallon Fox example breaking women's orbital bones and inflicting other severe injuries thanks to their genetic advantages over cis women?

Or in weightlifting where we've already seen what happens when a trans women competes and breaks records at a ridiculous pace thanks to the genetics advantages she has thanks to being born male.

If that's the case women's power sports, combat sports, and track and Field sports are going to be dominated by trans women who will obliterate the cis women they compete against at a rate that will make an absolute Mockery out of the competitions.

wexie

robyntmorton wrote: »

We can not hold this against her. What we can do, as I have said many times before, is to question whether the rules themselves are fair.

Absolutely agree with this, insofar that this person won within the rules set out by the governing body. Which is fair enough.

The problem for me comes when people who question whether or not the rules are fair get shouted down as transphobes or whatever else may insults may be flung around in order to get the debate shut down.

I think questioning whether or not these rules are fair is entirely valid and certainly not unreasonable.

velo.2010

nee wrote: »

Thinking it's a simple matter of a super competitive person just waking up one morning and deciding to compete as a woman to win boggles my mind. It's so ignorant of the actual issues at play it's laughable.

Unlike the governing body of the Olympics and many other trans athletes, McKinnon believes only self-identification should determine whether one competes in male or female divisions. Unfortunately, that leaves it open to the above which has happened in decades gone by.

My problem with McKinnon is her equating trans peoples access to sport with the plight of black people in the States. There is no parallel between the two. Black people, for centuries, were arbitrarily discriminated against (and continue to be so) and segregated based purely on an illogical belief that they were sub human. Trans issues have only come into being relatively recently and major strides have been made to accommodate and ensure equality with cisgender people. While there are still instances of bigotry there can be no parallel drawn with the racial abuse of millions of people.

Another point raised was that its only an issue because a trans woman won the race - we wouldn't hear anything if she had come nowhere. A person taking PEDS wouldn't necessarily win a race because they are on drugs but it's still unfair on the other competitors who are not.

I've written plenty on this in my earlier posts in this thread. Its entirely fair for trans women to compete with women but it is also unfair for the women who have to compete with trans women if they are not taking action to suppress the levels of testosterone down to the female range (as per Ross Tucker's evaluation).

McKinnon's militant attitude isn't doing her any favours with regard to the promotion of trans peoples access to sport.

terrydel

velo.2010 wrote: »

Unlike the governing body of the Olympics and many other trans athletes, McKinnon believes only self-identification should determine whether one competes in male or female divisions. Unfortunately, that leaves it open to the above which has happened in decades gone by.

My problem with McKinnon is her equating trans peoples access to sport with the plight of black people in the States. There is no parallel between the two. Black people, for centuries, were arbitrarily discriminated against (and continue to be so) and segregated based purely on an illogical belief that they were sub human. Trans issues have only come into being relatively recently and major strides have been made to accommodate and ensure equality with cisgender people. While there are still instances of bigotry there can be no parallel drawn with the racial abuse of millions of people.

Another point raised was that its only an issue because a trans woman won the race - we wouldn't hear anything if she had come nowhere. A person taking PEDS wouldn't necessarily win a race because they are on drugs but it's still unfair on the other competitors who are not.

I've written plenty on this in my earlier posts in this thread. Its entirely fair for trans women to compete with women but it is also unfair for the women who have to compete with trans women if they are not taking action to suppress the levels of testosterone down to the female range (as per Ross Tucker's evaluation).

McKinnon's militant attitude isn't doing her any favours with regard to the promotion of trans peoples access to sport.

Yep, it is sickening to get the usual allegations thrown for questioning this, in the same manner as Serena Williams and her pathetic use of the gender card when she is called out for being an obnoxious arsehole.
The irony is that most reasonable people (and I include myself in that) are only questioning this are doing so out of a concern for the 99% of female athletes who are actually and potentially suffering as a result of this.Why should the 99% be punished in order to accommodate the 1%? Show me incontrovertible evidence that this isnt the case and I'll gladly say I was wrong and accept the argument is over.
Yes, being trans is enormously difficult and nver a decision taken lightly, but all choices in life have consequences, and if one of those is that you cannot compete against those in your new gender who have been that way since day one and not had the advantage of being the other gender for many years, well thats life, you dont get everything your way or how you want it.
Sport should be a meritocracy above all else, were at the very least everyone goes into it knowing the rules of the game and with eyes wide open. This stuff undoubtedly skews that massively. The women losing out here wont get that time back.

velo.2010

terrydel wrote: »

Yep, it is sickening to get the usual allegations thrown for questioning this, in the same manner as Serena Williams and her pathetic use of the gender card when she is called out for being an obnoxious arsehole.
The irony is that most reasonable people (and I include myself in that) are only questioning this are doing so out of a concern for the 99% of female athletes who are actually and potentially suffering as a result of this.Why should the 99% be punished in order to accommodate the 1%? Show me incontrovertible evidence that this isnt the case and I'll gladly say I was wrong and accept the argument is over.
Yes, being trans is enormously difficult and nver a decision taken lightly, but all choices in life have consequences, and if one of those is that you cannot compete against those in your new gender who have been that way since day one and not had the advantage of being the other gender for many years, well thats life, you dont get everything your way or how you want it.
Sport should be a meritocracy above all else, were at the very least everyone goes into it knowing the rules of the game and with eyes wide open. This stuff undoubtedly skews that massively. The women losing out here wont get that time back.

Terry, I know you quoted and thanked my post above but I don't think we're quite on the same wavelength.

GreeBo

Hurrache wrote: »

Not a great analogy as that does happen in a way, not enough members for say a separate under 9 and under 12 team, so the under 12 team essentially becomes a mishmash of under 9's and 12's in order to get one team out there.

I think you'll find its a perfect analogy and you just proved the point.

Everyone plays on the under 12's team rather than the under 9's team.
Why?
Because anything else would be ridiculously unfair.

However if a 12 year old decided that they actually identified as a 9 year old that would be ok then I guess.

Hurrache

terrydel wrote: »

Yes, being trans is enormously difficult and nver a decision taken lightly, but all choices in life have consequences,

I don't think many that are quite see it as being a life choice.

terrydel

velo.2010 wrote: »

Terry, I know you quoted and thanked my post above but I don't think we're quite on the same wavelength.

How so?

velo.2010

terrydel wrote: »

How so?

I was hanging on but you lost me at ' Yes, being trans is enormously difficult and never a decision taken lightly.'

terrydel

Hurrache wrote: »

I don't think many that are quite see it as being a life choice.

You are putting a connotation on that term, that I was not inferring.

terrydel

velo.2010 wrote: »

I was hanging on but you lost me at ' Yes, being trans is enormously difficult and never a decision taken lightly.'

And it is enormously difficult for those who are trans to come to that decision (presumably many never do) and Im fairly sure they dont make the decision to transition lightly, so were is the problem there.

velo.2010

terrydel wrote: »

And it is enormously difficult for those who are trans to come to that decision (presumably many never do) and Im fairly sure they dont make the decision to transition lightly, so were is the problem there.

Ah, I think your conflating transgender and transsexual. Transgender is someone having a gender identity that differs from their assigned sex.

I'm not asking anyone to go through the physical change(transsexual) in order to compete as a woman.

My point, and the general argument, has always been about the increased T levels and the associated benefits versus cisgender females.

terrydel

velo.2010 wrote: »

Ah, I think your conflating transgender and transsexual. Transgender is someone having a gender identity that differs from their assigned sex.

I'm not asking anyone to go through the physical change(transsexual) in order to compete as a woman.

My point, and the general argument, has always been about the increased T levels and the associated benefits versus cisgender females.

I know what they are.
Im not asking anyone to do anything either. People should do whatever they like as long as they dont hurt others.
Im saying woman who have felt they were born into the wrong gender and transition later in life, have in my opinion gained a huge advantage over women born into the correct gender, to the point that it is hugely unfair to allow them to compete as women. Happy to see scientific evidence that proves this wrong or if available.
Im not in any way trying to belittle anyone in this situation. But in a purely sporting context I dont feel they should be competing against women born into their correct gender.
And I certainly dont think biological men who havent transitioned and merely identify as a woman should be competing against women. Just my own opinion.
I think we are agreeing there.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Brian? wrote: »

Off you go so.

One step at a time though. First you'll need to spend a few years agonising over your own gender identity. Then you're have to see a psychiatrist for a few months in order to be diagnosed with gender dysmorphia and be prescribed testosterone inhibitors and the rest of the cocktail of hormones transgender women take. Then you'll need to change your gender legally.

Then that record is all yours baby.

It's not as simple as declaring yourself a woman and competing.

No he just needs to self declare himself a different gender, at least under Irish law. No transition required. The different sports bodies may have laws on testosterone but that’s about it.

http://www.teni.ie/page.aspx?contentid=586

wexie

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

The different sports bodies may have laws on testosterone but that’s about it.
]

Out of curiosity : how do the testosterone limits for transathletes measures up against those of biological females? Are they the same?

If not could that mean that biological females could actually take testosterone as a PED and still be within the limits set for transgender athletes?