Rachel McKinnon wins Worlds gold at UCI masters track cycling

TheBoyConor

Tbh, I would love to know what Roy Keane would have to say about this.

Hurrache

screamer wrote: »

but biologically this is a man not a woman....

It can be argued that this is not the case after going through the various hormone therapies in that the body no longer acts as a man's wood anymore. (Edit, just saw my typo, and I'm going to leave it there as it's so amazingly apt)

recedite wrote: »

He hasn't even bothered to have the surgery, so still a dick.

Wasn't aware of that.

Danzy

Hurrache wrote: »

It can be argued that this is not the case Street going through the various hormone therapies in that the body no longer acts as a man's wood anymore.

Twenty years time the strength of growing up a man will still be there.

The difference in lung capacity alone is significant, a game changer and others ate arguably more so in other sports.

As was pointed out earlier there are under18 men in Ireland am as amateur sports that would win world titles in female sports.

DEFTLEFTHAND

secman wrote: »

Getting to the stage that there might have to be separate transgender races and probably 2 to covers both male to female and female to male.
As seen by the current discussion that person was a cat 1 male cyclist and now a female, hardly fair on the fair ladies. There would I'd imagine be a huge difference in the
Testosterone levels between a female and a male to female person. It is after all a natural anabolic steroid.

There wouldn't be enough compeititors to justify separate races for TG cylclists at this level.

We are talking about a condition that effects 0.03% of the human race.

NIMAN

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I think this is an absolute farce and something that poses are danger to *women's* sports. It could seriously demotivate genuine female athletes if they begin to think "sure what's the point going through all this training and effort if a trans "woman" can come in with a significantly more muscle mass and aerobic capacity and beat us all.

Even after full gender reassignment surgery the trans "woman" will still likely have bigger bones, bigger muscles and bigger lungs and heart than a real woman.

It really isn't fair or a level playing field and I feel it makes a mockery out of women's sports.

No 'likely' about it, they will have, and will always have.

That person will always be bigger, stronger and fitter than that the vast majority, if not all, the women they compete against.

But sure its the way of the world now. You aren't allowed to say he/she isn't a woman for fear of offending someone or everyone, and if they are banned from competing in a womans race it is discriminatory.

Can of worms is well and truly opened now.

J Madone

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

There wouldn't be enough compeititors to justify separate races for TG cylclists at this level.

We are talking about a condition that effects 0.03% of the human race.

Why doesn't she race as a woman against the men? That would take balls

magicbastarder

recedite wrote: »

Probably taking something to reduce testosterone.

what stood out for me was that she claims it's a violation of her human rights to have to reduce her testosterone to compete. if, as you say, she's pre-op, does anyone know what the argument is for a person with male genitalia and *not* taking testosterone suppressants should be allowed compete in womens' sports?

and that's not a rhetorical question, i'm genuinely curious what argument can be advanced on it.

anyway, i doubt there's any robust stats kept, but it'd be interesting to see if transgender athletes (M>F) perform better than average than athletes born female. if they do, where does that leave sport?

terrydel

She pointed to her grueling training regime in defence of herself.
To me that is scrapping the barrel, and in no way defends anything. As a top level athlete its a given that you have a grueling training regime and work as hard as your competitors.

terrydel

I've never raced in my life, am 40 now, never been much of an athlete, and just as an example, only 8 women have a better time on Strava up the Wicklow Gap than I do. Thats not definitive in any way, but what does that say when a bog average, middle aged man would rank very high amongst top level female racers, at least national level ones?
Men have an enormous advantage over women simply because of their genetic makeup. There is no avoiding that. And trans people, have at the very least gained hugely from that up to the point they decide to undergo treatment.
Personally I find this makes a mockery of female sport.

Subcomandante Marcos

Arrow in the Knee wrote: »

Sticken my neck out here but he shouldn't be allowed to enter any female sporting event.

I'm about at liberal leftie as it gets and I agree with this. Anyone who says that male bodies don't have significant advantages in "most* spots needs to ask why the women's 100m world record is slower than teenage males at national levels can demolish, why the US women's soccer team can get trounced by u15 boys highschool teams from California, and so on. Everything from muscle development to bone density, and sheer speed and power are different. To say otherwise is blatant willful ignorance. And for the people who claim taking hormones or hormone blockers will negate these differences, again, blatant willful ignorance.

super_furry

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Tbh, I would love to know what Roy Keane would have to say about this.

Bikes? Bikes? What are you messing around on bikes for? Amateur, disgrace!

terrydel

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Tbh, I would love to know what Roy Keane would have to say about this.

Hang around, hes an opinion on everything these days so I'm sure it wont be long til he gets stuck into this topic.

Franz Von Peppercorn

magicbastarder wrote: »

what stood out for me was that she claims it's a violation of her human rights to have to reduce her testosterone to compete. if, as you say, she's pre-op, does anyone know what the argument is for a person with male genitalia and *not* taking testosterone suppressants should be allowed compete in womens' sports?

and that's not a rhetorical question, i'm genuinely curious what argument can be advanced on it.

anyway, i doubt there's any robust stats kept, but it'd be interesting to see if transgender athletes (M>F) perform better than average than athletes born female. if they do, where does that leave sport?

Many countries incl Ireland have self identification. Legally then a trans woman is a woman. No other action is necessary.

terrydel

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Many countries incl Ireland have self identification. Legally then a trans woman is a woman. No other action is necessary.

I could identify as Leo Messi and FC Barcelona still wont pick me.
Anthony Joshua could identify as a lightweight but the WBO/WBC/whatever other organisation wont sanction him fighting at that weight for obvious reasons.

Franz Von Peppercorn

terrydel wrote: »

I could identify as Leo Messi and FC Barcelona still wont pick me.
Anthony Joshua could identify as a lightweight but the WBO/WBC/whatever other organisation wont sanction him fighting at that weight for obvious reasons.

Well you wouldn’t have the legal backing to be Leo messi. Although I suppose you could change your name legally you wouldn’t be him.

The nature of the legislation on gender recognition is fairly simple - adults can legally change gender. After that the law must treat them as that gender.

Effects

Deleted User wrote: »

Have there been any trans contact sport competitors? I'd imagine thats a line yet to be crossed.

Female to male trans, who wants to compete against men but has been forced to compete against women.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title

Hurrache

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

To say otherwise is blatant willful ignorance. And for the people who claim taking hormones or hormone blockers will negate these differences, again, blatant willful ignorance.

I don't think anyone claimed blockers would negate the differences, it was thrown out for discussion.

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Well you wouldn’t have the legal backing to be Leo messi.

Nor the TUE for all the hormones he took.

Subcomandante Marcos

Hurrache wrote: »

I don't think anyone claimed blockers would negate the differences, it was thrown out for discussion.

Not here they haven't but gender studies professors in the US have made claims like "6 months of HRT will nullify any advantages of a genetically male body" which is absolute nonsense.

terrydel

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Well you wouldn’t have the legal backing to be Leo messi. Although I suppose you could change your name legally you wouldn’t be him.

The nature of the legislation on gender recognition is fairly simple - adults can legally change gender. After that the law must treat them as that gender.

And of course you are right, Im just using an extreme example to make the point that identifying as something doesnt necessarily make it so.
Yes they have legal backing and 99% of that is grounded in a very solid basis, that of basic human rights to live as you wish., which I totally agree with.
But just because something is legally correct, does not mean, that in a different context such as sport, it makes sense or is even fair or safe.
See the other example, Anthony Joshua can identify as anything he wants but his sport has categories that are clearly defined for amongst other things, fairness.

Hespy

Effects wrote: »

Female to male trans, who wants to compete against men but has been forced to compete against women.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/feb/25/transgender-wrestler-mack-beggs-wins-texas-girls-title

It beggs the question really, should I get my coat or not? :P

drunkmonkey

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Many countries incl Ireland have self identification. Legally then a trans woman is a woman. No other action is necessary.

That should have been put to a referendum, I'd be surprised how many of the population even know it happened. We completely nuked gender without anyone batting an eyelid. It's a disgrace Joe!

Brian?

Danzy wrote: »

More to strength than muscle. Bone and sinew.

The Irish female deadlife record for 84kg+ is 175kgs.

It is a massive weight, I've done it and some and do not go to the gym regularly.

If I trained for a year I'm certain is deadlift over 300 kg and that would not b e an aggressive target.

While I've not trained much I'm used to hard graft and heavy lifting and have been since a child.

I'm no muscle bound gym head cause I've it built in after years of it.

I'm 40 and with next to no training I could crack at the Irish women's 84kg deadlift title.

With 3 months going to gym three times a week I'd blow it out of the water.

Taking on people who are dedicated athletes with years of discipline and commitment I could never match.

Off you go so.

One step at a time though. First you'll need to spend a few years agonising over your own gender identity. Then you're have to see a psychiatrist for a few months in order to be diagnosed with gender dysmorphia and be prescribed testosterone inhibitors and the rest of the cocktail of hormones transgender women take. Then you'll need to change your gender legally.

Then that record is all yours baby.

It's not as simple as declaring yourself a woman and competing.

TheBoyConor

terrydel wrote: »

Hang around, hes an opinion on everything these days so I'm sure it wont be long til he gets stuck into this topic.

"Hang on a second.. You asked me for my opinion on it, (everyone seems to have an opinion these days) but anyway, I gave it. And now you're getting all offended by it? What's that about, like?
If you thought you couldn't handle my opinion then you shouldn't have asked for it in the first place. Ridiculous. I haven't time for this bull. "

TheBoyConor

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Many countries incl Ireland have self identification. Legally then a trans woman is a woman. No other action is necessary.

I often wonder what define's a traveller?

Like could I decide in the morning that I identify as an illiterate Irish Traveller and go about claiming whatever special benefits go to the travelling community?

Could I also be like that dope, Dil Wigrimaskinghe and identify as a lesbian mixed race immigrant with a disability and go around making non-so sublte generalising racist digs at white Irish people, except it won't be rasict because I'd be a diasbled mixed race lesbian immigrant and the rules don't apply to me because I'm a member of every fúckin' minority I can think of. Can i identify like that?

eeeee

As a woman who races at national level (and it's on possession of a few medals, even a gold this year!) I have absolutely no problem with her winning this medal. I have no problems competing against a trans woman. None whatsoever.
Those calling it a mockery of sport :rolleyes:.
Being a trans person is a decision no one would willingly choose. It's an absolutely devastating, agonising journey beyond most ciss people's comprehension (see Brian's post above).
There have been many excellent articles about why testosterone levels in trans people need to be at a certain level to maintain their health, in particular by a Canadian woman going through it at ther moment, I think she was a consultant for the uci on these matters?
Thinking it's a simple matter of a super competitive person just waking up one morning and deciding to compete as a woman to win boggles my mind. It's so ignorant of the actual issues at play it's laughable.
All the men getting their knickers in a twist about an issue that will never affect them would be better served by sending their energy supporting women's sport, investing in it and helping it to grow so we can attempt to start level the playing field in terms of support and investment v the men's equivalent.

marieholmfan

What is her disability?
Is she mixed race?

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I often wonder what define's a traveller?

Like could I decide in the morning that I identify as an illiterate Irish Traveller and go about claiming whatever special benefits go to the travelling community?

Could I also be like that dope, Dil Wigrimaskinghe and identify as a lesbian mixed race immigrant with a disability and go around making non-so sublte generalising racist digs at white Irish people, except it won't be rasict because I'd be a diasbled mixed race lesbian immigrant and the rules don't apply to me because I'm a member of every fúckin' minority I can think of. Can i identify like that?

Effects

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Like could I decide in the morning that I identify as an illiterate Irish Traveller and go about claiming whatever special benefits go to the travelling community?

The same benefits are available to you whether you want to identify as a traveller or not.

TheBoyConor

I'd like to self identify as a boards.ie mod and siteban the mods I don't like.

Canis Lupus

TheBoyConor wrote: »

I'd like to self identify as a boards.ie mod and siteban the mods I don't like.

Why have I never thought of that before! GENIUS!

Danzy

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Not here they haven't but gender studies professors in the US have made claims like "6 months of HRT will nullify any advantages of a genetically male body" which is absolute nonsense.

30 years wouldn't undo it, not 290.