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Honestly how amazing is it that we have fluent English?

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    #122
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    I agree with the OP, it's like totally amazeballs.


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    #123
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    You're right from a certain perspective. From that anti-sentimentality perspective, one could legitimately argue that the disappearance of the Coral Reef is a thing of nothing, that restoration of the Sistine Chapel is a waste of money, that native Amazonian tribes should abandon their stone age ways, and so on.

    The Coral Reef is the only habitat available for countless species. It being destroyed affects living things on the world directly, including us. You may as well call climate change or smoke pollution "sentimental".

    Sistine Chapel or Amazonian tribes is another thing. If it cost too much to restore and maintain them then yes, they could be done away with. How much is spent on Irish to maintain it every single year?


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    #124
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    paleoperson wrote: »
    I think the Irish language is stupid. Good on our ancestors who got us to speak English, they were on the ball, if only they knew what a feckin waste of time they would put us through to this day to learn the useless language.

    Yep, well done to all those Irish people who had the both the foresight and good grace to die in the famine or flee starvation so that the English language could replace Irish.


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    #125
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,629 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Beanntraigheach wrote: »
    Interestingly, if the Austrian people had had their way, Austria would have become part of Germany after the Austro-Hungarian Empire fell apart.
    The victors of WWI refused to permit it.
    In fact, there was a strong desire amongst many Austrians for incorporation into the German Empire for decades before the end of the Habsburg realm.

    Yeah the first incarnation of the country after WW1 was 'German-Austria', but like you say the allies refused to permit it, even though they were all for self-determination for the rest of the empire.


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    #126
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    Yep, well done to all those Irish people who had the both the foresight and good grace to die in the famine or flee starvation so that the English language could replace Irish.

    http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/779/388/d33.jpg

    Your post has nothing to do with what was being said. It's not a good troll post, it's just nonsense.


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    #127
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    paleoperson wrote: »
    The Coral Reef is the only habitat available for countless species. It being destroyed affects living things on the world directly, including us. You may as well call climate change or smoke pollution "sentimental".

    Sistine Chapel or Amazonian tribes is another thing. If it cost too much to restore and maintain them then yes, they could be done away with. How much is spent on Irish to maintain it every single year?

    So how much are you prepared to sacrifice in order to try to save the Coral Reef?

    Ok. So that's the Amazonian tribes logged into oblivion and the Sistine Chapel left to rot. Good. Let's all have a tax cut or welfare rise and we can let the Book of Kells, Sceilig Mhichil, the Rock of Cashel etc. take care of themselves. Apart from a few tourists, what has the Book of Kells ever done for us?

    I don't know how much is spent to maintain Irish every year. Do you?

    You said this: "How can anyone maintain that the language someone speaks is a defining feature of them?" Do you know anything at all about language?


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    #128
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    BabyE wrote: »
    Honestly how amazing is it that we have fluent English?

    Well its hardly amazing, seeing as English is our 1st spoken language!

    But what is amazing is the fact that Irish is meant toi be out 1st official language, yet most of us can only get by with the cupla focal, that's what's amazing....this, inspite of the fact that we/our parents/grandparents since the 1930s have been forced to 'do' Irish throughout their/our primary & secondary school lives, yet we're still as a country not fluent in Irish ... that's what's amazing.


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    #129
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    paleoperson wrote: »
    http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/779/388/d33.jpg

    Your post has nothing to do with what was being said. It's not a good troll post, it's just nonsense.

    Perhaps then you might enlighten as to exactly how and when English finally replaced Irish as the language spoken by the majority of people on this island.


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    #130
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    Perhaps then you might enlighten as to exactly how and when English finally replaced Irish as the language spoken by the majority of people on this island.

    When our ancestors realized it was the only way forward they made the decision to move to english instead, something which I'm thankful for. Now you can attack or disagree with that if you want, at least just make sense.


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    #131
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wv_662IqKto


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    #132
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    paleoperson wrote: »
    When our ancestors realized it was the only way forward they made the decision to move to english instead, something which I'm thankful for. Now you can attack or disagree with that if you want, at least just make sense.

    So you think that we all got up one day and decided to start speaking a completely different language just for the crack?

    I'm guessing history wasn't your strongest subject.


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    #133
    Chuchote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭Chuchote


    Irish was the first language from Athlone west before the Famine and English was the first language from Athlone east, roughly speaking. The massive number of orphans and the destruction of families, allied with all-engulfing emigration from 1847 to the 1920s meant that people deliberately spoke English to their children because they were going to need it when they emigrated to America.
    Our fluency in English comes from the destruction of our economy.


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    #134
    paleoperson
    Registered Users Posts: 3,522 ✭✭✭paleoperson


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    So you think that we all got up one day and decided to start speaking a completely different language just for the crack?

    I'm guessing history wasn't your strongest subject.

    I didn't say anything like that.

    Get a grip.


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    #135
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Our fluency in English comes from the destruction of our economy.

    Genuine question, what economy?


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    #136
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    paleoperson wrote: »
    I didn't say anything like that.

    Get a grip.

    It's a simple question that you seem very reluctant to answer, how did English replace Irish?


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    #137
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Evolution & natural selection = the strongest language (the language of commerce) prevailed.


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    #138
    languagenerd
    Registered Users Posts: 3,201 ✭✭✭languagenerd


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Evolution & natural selection = the strongest language prevaled.

    Not exactly - the language of the strongest army prevales...


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    #139
    Beanntraigheach
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Beanntraigheach


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Well its hardly amazing, seeing as English is our 1st spoken language!

    But what is amazing is the fact that Irish is meant toi be out 1st official language, yet most of us can only get by with the cupla focal, that's what's amazing....this, inspite of the fact that we/our parents/grandparents since the 1930s have been forced to 'do' Irish throughout their/our primary & secondary school lives, yet we're still as a country not fluent in Irish ... that's what's amazing.
    Not really. Very few, if any, people become "fluent", or anywhere near it, in a language by attending ordinary classes in school.
    You'll find this everywhere, whatever the language being taught.

    Fluency really requires daily use, the target language becoming part of one's life. Even then it's going to be a major challenge for most, requiring years of effort and commitment.

    Classes in school can really only serve as a "foundation" in a language.


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    #140
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Evolution & natural selection = the strongest language (the language of commerce) prevailed.

    In that case we all better start learning Mandarin.


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    #141
    Beanntraigheach
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Beanntraigheach


    paleoperson wrote: »
    When our ancestors realized it was the only way forward they made the decision to move to english instead, something which I'm thankful for. Now you can attack or disagree with that if you want, at least just make sense.
    Hilarious :D


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    #142
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,132 ✭✭✭screamer


    Chuchote wrote: »
    Our fluency in English comes from the destruction of our economy.
    more like the destruction of our culture and our identity. Children beaten by their parents in order to make them speak English to effectively kill off our native tongue as a thing of shame. Yes OP it's amazing that we are fluent in English and most people in Ireland haven't a focal gaeilge le rá Go híontach ar fad.


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    #143
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    languagenerd wrote: »
    Not exactly - the language of the strongest army...

    No, I don't think so. I suggest it was as I have posted above^.

    Irish was on the decline for 200 years approx before English took over as our 1st spoken language. I am glad that Irish survives, just amazed that's its still only a niche language after 90 years of trying to resurrect it through compulsoy teaching/corporal punishment right up until the 1970s.

    Mind you, I suspect the corporal punishment did no good to further our love for the Irish language.


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    #144
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users Posts: 14,359 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    screamer wrote: »
    more like the destruction of our culture and our identity. Children beaten by their parents in order to make them speak English to effectively kill off our native tongue as a thing of shame. Yes OP it's amazing that we are fluent in English and most people in Ireland haven't a focal gaeilge le rá Go híontach ar fad.

    English became the language of government and commerce. As the vast majority of Irish people were poor, they chose to ensure their children could speak the language of government and commerce in order that they might have a chance to make a decent life for themselves. If they had ensured that their children spoke Irish only, it would have greatly marginalised them. That would have been shameful.

    It is simplistic to judge those people and their behaviour from a modern perspective.


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    #145
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    LordSutch wrote: »
    No, I don't think so. I suggest it was as I have posted above^.

    Irish was on the decline for 200 years approx before English took over as our 1st spoken language. I am glad that Irish survives, just amazed that's its only still only a niche language after 90 years of trying to resurrect it through compulsoy teaching/corporal punishment right up until the 1970s.

    Mind you, I suspect the corporal punishment did no good to further our love for the Irish language.

    The introduction of Primary schools in the 19th century hastened the decline of Irish. Youngsters got the heads walloped off them for speaking Irish.

    I hated Irish in school. I've only come back to learning it properly in later life.


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    #146
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Arsemageddon wrote: »
    Youngsters got the heads walloped off them for speaking Irish.

    ... and then in the 1930s 40s 50s 60 & 70s they got their heads wolloped for not speaking Irish :cool:


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    #147
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,132 ✭✭✭screamer


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    English became the language of government and commerce. As the vast majority of Irish people were poor, they chose to ensure their children could speak the language of government and commerce in order that they might have a chance to make a decent life for themselves. If they had ensured that their children spoke Irish only, it would have greatly marginalised them. That would have been shameful.

    It is simplistic to judge those people and their behaviour from a modern perspective.

    Well please explain the Welsh then. Proud of their heritage and culture and proficient bi linguists. The Irish though not at all no pride in their native tongue no thought of being able to shock horror speak both languages. National pride my backside and that perhaps speaks volumes as to why the language has effectively died.


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    #148
    Beanntraigheach
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Beanntraigheach


    LordSutch wrote: »
    No, I don't think so. I suggest it was as I have posted above^.

    Irish was on the decline for 200 years approx before English took over as our 1st spoken language. I am glad that Irish survives, just amazed that's its still only a niche language after 90 years of trying to resurrect it through compulsoy teaching/corporal punishment right up until the 1970s.

    Mind you, I suspect the corporal punishment did no good to further our love for the Irish language.
    Was corporal punishment only used in Irish classes?

    If so, I suppose the extensive use of corporal punishment (the "bata scóir" etc), mocking, and humiliation so successfully employed in the teaching of English to Irish-speaking children may have provided inspiration.


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    #149
    Arsemageddon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    LordSutch wrote: »
    ... and then in the 1930s 40s 50s 60 & 70s they got their heads wolloped for not speaking Irish :cool:

    Sir, I'll have you know that I was still getting the head walloped off me in the 80s and 90s for not learning Irish.

    I think it was the fact that it was compulsory that made me resent it. The same went for maths and English.


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    #150
    Beanntraigheach
    Registered Users Posts: 789 ✭✭✭Beanntraigheach


    screamer wrote: »
    Well please explain the Welsh then. Proud of their heritage and culture and proficient bi linguists. The Irish though not at all no pride in their native tongue no thought of being able to shock horror speak both languages. National pride my backside and that perhaps speaks volumes as to why the language has effectively died.
    Wait, I don't understand.
    You mean humans have the capacity to speak more than one language?!
    Amazing.


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    #151
    screamer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,132 ✭✭✭screamer


    Beanntraigheach wrote: »
    Was corporal punishment only used in Irish classes?

    If so, I suppose the extensive use of corporal punishment (the "bata scóir" etc), mocking, and humiliation so successfully employed in the teaching of English to Irish-speaking children may have provided inspiration.

    Not at all I nearly had 10 broken fingers as a four year old child for not tidying up my counters fast enough. For which the punishment was hands flat on the desk and to belts of a meter stick across them and that was in the 80s.....
    anyways corporal punishment was metered out by all sorts of old b*****d teachers for anything at all they wanted it definitely wasn't solely reserved for Irish.


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