GARDAI SEIZED RIFLES (September 06) new licence from Dec

Tricky1127

Can anyone help me with this I've got two rifles taking by the Gardai both of these are straight pull single shot (not semi auto) similar to that of a bolt action can't get any of the officers involved with it to tell me what is going on am a Left-hand shooter and these are hard to get + they have been inspected lots of times in the past never a problem the Gardai received a complaint from a local member of the name less public (Name Less) so they turned up looking to inspected the security of the said property only to say that the Super Intendant want them to be tested & seized this was in August 2016 so what could I do but hand them over (In Ireland we only have permission from the state to have/use no rights) one officer said that it could be that they look military type..? one does have a ten round mag the other takes a single round magazine have phoned them leaving messages to ask what is happening but get no reply from the Gardai or the Super Intendant can't make an appointment to see them what's my next step have phoned NARGC just keep getting the answer machine and left voice mail nothing very disappointed money well spent.
In short I don't want to make trouble for the Gardai or go to War with them just want it sorted out and my rifles returned intact Oh yeah I even got them ammo to test fire them to help speed up the process
Signed A Target Shooter and Hunter

gunny123

Sorry, but maybe i am missing something ? Are the straight pulls semi-auto type rifles converted to straight pull ? There are hundreds of black plastic stocked rifles licenced out there, what has a "military look" got to do with anything ? Did you get a receipt from the guards when they confiscated your private property ?

Tricky1127

Told me that they don't have to give a receipt at this point but would give me one later..... Heard Nothing else from him in writing or getting him on the phone left lots of messages no reply (Southern Gun Company England AR10T) H&K R8

Tricky1127

H&K SL8 R8 .223Rem + S.G.C, AR10-T in .260 Rem

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Told me that they don't have to give a receipt at this point but would give me one later..... Heard Nothing else from him in writing or getting him on the phone left lots of messages no reply (Southern Gun Company England AR10T) H&K R8

Nice guns. I reckon they will have sent it to the ballistics "expert" in Dublin to find out if its possible to convert them back to semi-auto. The guy here who will know is Grizzly45, he has been down the road with issues to do with semi-auto centrefire rifles. Personally if it were me i would have demanded a receipt.

Also do you have any paperwork from southern gun or the proof house in the uk to state the gun has been irreversibly converted to straight pull ?

Tricky1127

The side of the AR10-T has been C&C machined making it Left-hand so that a gas system wouldn't work even if fitted. H&K same but was a piston system machined so if fitted wouldn't work

Tricky1127

Southern Gun Company are only allowed to make Section 1 fire arms so no auto or semi auto Semi-Auto centre fire is section 5 in the UK Banned in 1997 I believe

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

The side of the AR10-T has been C&C machined making it Left-hand so that a gas system wouldn't work even if fitted. H&K same but was a piston system machined so if fitted wouldn't work

Explaining that to most guards is like trying to teach a monkey calculus. They won't take your word for it either, so i reckon they are being taken to bits in the ballistics dept.

Tricky1127

I have visions of a spanner specialists trying to figure it out and usIng Wikipedia and Google PSNI, London Met , and Surrey Police service did it in a few minutes

Cass

1. When the Gardaí arrived did they have a letter of revocation from the Super?
2. Did they have a letter from the Super/Super's office to say the firearm were to be taken away to be tested?
3. Were the Gardaí present competent to handle firearms?
4. Did you ask had they experience in handling firearms before?
5. Did you offer to follow them/accompany them to the station and hand the firearms over yourself due to concerns about their ability to handle them?

The above would have been the first things i'd have done. Without any letters from the Super no one would be taking my firearm from my house. I would even go so far as to politely inform the Gardaí present that due to the serious safety concerns i had in relation to the firearm and the ability of them to safely and competently handle them i would await a letter (and letter only, no calls) from the Super assuring me that the Gardaí present were competent and that the firearm are being requested for testing by his/her office.

If you have committed no offence, and they have no letter from the Super (testing or revocation) then frankly, and IMO, they have no authority to seize the firearms.

As said above if they done any of this without issuing a receipt for the firearm and informing me of the storage location and testing location of the firearms they sure as sh*t wouldn't be getting them.

Lastly the ammo. Absolutely under no circumstances should you have handed them (the firearms in my opinion) the ammunition. An Gardaí do not have a range and therefore have no where to test the rifles. They must "borrow" a range to fire them on and the only ranges in the country that are rated for such calbires are the Midlands in Tullamore, Harbour House in Kildare and An Roicht in Kerry. You should not have handed the ammo over, and if the seizure is legit they should be able and prepared to test the various calibres of firearms they want to test. Perhaps they have a bullet box, but all that will tell them is the gun fires that round.

My advice is get up, right now, and get to the station these Gardaí were from. Demand, and i mean demand, a meeting with the Super. Ask all the questions above and also why you were not kept informed as to the status of the testing procedures, the location of your property (they might be firearms, but they are your property, always, regardless of license status), and the estimated return date of your property.

If they refuse to meet then contact a solicitor and inform them of what is happening. Have them on stand by should this escalate, but don't leave it too long to get your ducks in a row. Also contact the Chief Super's office if the Super refuses to meet, contact the Firearm Policy Unit (cannot do much, but call everyone), send an e-mail to the NARGC (but only if you are a member as they don't deal with non members), also contact any shooting ranges/groups you are a member of and inform them of what is happening.

You need to act now to get ahead of this.

Cass

Oh, by the way just in case anyone thinks they might see me on the news some day. I am absolutely NOT saying you should cause a stand off between yourself and RRU/ARU.

You SHOULD completely comply with any member of An Gardai, however do so in a safe and competent manner so as to ensure your rights (as little as they are) and the safety of everyone concerned are met and obeyed.

There is no position of Firearms Officer within An Gardaí. Its a title we (the shooting community) have imposed on the unlucky sod that gets landed with the role. As such the majority of An Gardaí in this position have no firearms knowledge and most definitely no training on the safe and competent handling of firearms.

So it is not civil disobedience i am calling for, but an exercising of common sense and safety.

Tricky1127

Cass. Nobody on here would think that you are going to climb up a clock tower and we all know that we only have permission from the state to own/use firearms in Ireland
1/ It was an officer I know as an Garda F.O
2/ I offered to drop them off but was told that it was only to Chq the security ��
3/ On asking for something on paper to see was told it was a spoken order past on to him by the Super + he would write something out for me at a later stage (Never got anything he doesn't respond to call & messages)
4/I am a NARGC member
5/ Have to start a writing campaign at this stage and this only makes more work for them and will start a resentment..!! if from past experiences are to go from

gunny123

I had a similar experience years ago when the pistols were licenced first. I had a glock 17. One night late, well after 10pm, the doorbell rung and there was a little baldy article at the door in plain clothes. He produced his warrant card/id and asked if i had a glock pistol. I said i did and let him in. Anyway he took the pistol, i insisted on a receipt before i would let it out of my sight. It was many months (6+ i seem to recall) and a lot of hastle before i seen it again. The only explaination i could get as to why this had happened was, glocks were the most commonly used pistols in crime/gangland murders and the pistol was taken for ballistic testing.

You could be in for a long wait until you get it back no matter what happens. But don't go too softly softly with them just because they are coppers, they are quite capable of acting the maggot when it suits. You should be entitled to know where your property is, and what sort of person is taking it apart, a ballistic/firearms expert or the local plod with a lidl screwdriver set.

When i got my glock back it was filthy and had not been looked after.

Sparks

Um. At this point I'd be on to the super Tricky, (2) and (3) taken together there are sufficiently odd that I'd want to hear it from the horses mouth just as due diligence alone, let alone all other considerations. I mean, right now you have no idea where it is, you've handed it over to someone who didn't show you the appropriate paperwork along with ammunition, and you haven't a scrap of paper to show in court or a single witness to call on in the event that something untoward was to happen (and we know of at least one case where the Gardai allowed surrendered firearms to be misplaced and subsequently used in crimes so we're not in the world of fantasy here, but history).

And I'd be on to my NGB today as well so they could bring it up through their FCP channels with the FPU.

gunny123

Could the gardai deny all knowledge of the firearms ? Its only tricky's word that they took them. Why were they so reluctant to issue a simple receipt ? It could just be laziness or the usual FU attitude.

Tricky1127

Oh yeah the reason given was an Anonymous member of the public had been worried about Animal welfare...!! B/S in my own opinion + I didn't want to start a shouting match in my home thinking if it was before a judge and two official garda was later to say I was in fear of my life because "Rocket Launcher" was with in feet of the Defendant...! and what happened to Gunny123 is B/S because of it been a Glock (ffs) am sure if Gunny123 was living a life of crime his Pistol wouldn't be licensed/registered. And thanks Sparks for your help will have a good think my way forward tonight

tac foley

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Southern Gun Company are only allowed to make Section 1 fire arms so no auto or semi auto Semi-Auto centre fire is section 5 in the UK Banned in 1997 I believe

The semi-auto centre-fire ban came into force in 1988 after the earlier Hungerford massacre.

Southern Gun Company has been making LEGAL straight-pull firearms for sporting and leisure purposes since shortly after that date. All are made using specifically manufactured components that have NEVER been part of a working semi-automatic centre-fire firearm. THAT is the law in UK. Those components sourced in the USA are specially made for his products, inevitably leading to the high prices that he charges for his extremely popular products.

There are probably around twenty such firearms belonging to fellow club members, and hundreds, if not thousands of his guns used the Civilian Service Rifle competitions run throughout the mainland UK ever year.

To treat them as though they had arrived from another planet is a gross waste of expensive police time.

tac

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Oh yeah the reason given was an Anonymous member of the public had been worried about Animal welfare...!!

Do you have any neighbours who know you have the rifles and might be antis ? Were you shooting near a road or laneway and might have been seen ?

Cass

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Oh yeah the reason given was an Anonymous member of the public had been worried about Animal welfare...!!

WTF has that to do with An Gardaí?

That is an issue for ISPCA, who have no authority whatsoever to question you about firearms. Even if An Gardaí decided they'll kill a few hours checking out a complaint about animal welfare, again, what has it to do with your firearms?

I believe everything you've told us, but i'm struggling to understand and believe the motives. Animal welfare, turning into security check, turning into seizure of guns, turning into testing. All done without written authorisation, prior notice, evidence of competency on the part of the Gardaí at your door to safey handle the firearms.

Alarms bells should be screaming in your head at this point.

Tricky1127

Nothing like that it's a anonymous member of the public who thinks they heard a firearm in a different property of mine (fixer up house) no name given to the Gardai or asked for...... anonymous is a good tool for a vengeful person I can phone up and say Gunny123 from Ireland is at the school gates again and am afraid for the little children, My head doesn't work that way if Gunny123 was to upset me we could have words and then I'd forget about it not plot my own back on Gunny

Tricky1127

Cass, The Alarm Bells are still ringing the hole thing start till now makes sense to me it's the anonymous thing I've got no idea what has been said ie he killed a cat in a busy city centre for no reason other than to see if he could...!!

Tricky1127

Just a quick note still have the shotgun etc

Cass

Well here is a question or two.

1. Did they use the generic term Animal welfare?
2. Did they name an offence?
3. Did they imply or outright say that the animal welfare issue was tied to the firearm?

Trust when i say this, as i'm sure you and everyone else is all too aware of. If you were suspected of an offence in relation to your gun they would be nothing short of raiding your home and taking the safes with the guns inside.

They would not be there changing their minds or stories as to the reasons. It would be a Section 8 offence (at the very least) and they would take EVERYTHING. They would also come prepared with a letter of revocation or in the case of them believing you a threat to public safety, with more Gardaí or armed Gardaí and it would have occurred instantly.

Based on what you've said, and trying my best to follow, this seems like a call to your home, based on an anonymous and baseless complaint, which spiraled into something far more. It also seems like the Garda members there escalated the situation and will now, retrospectively, apply any authroisation needed to justify their actions.

I remember some years back a friend having something similar and when he showed the Garda his single barrel shotgun the Garda was shocked at the size of the "Rifle" stating not even the army had guns that big. My point is they saw your firearms and because they did not resemble the normal looking rifles in the country they got spooked, assumed they must be more than they arm (due to lack of knowledge) and decided to enforce their misgivings by seizing the guns.

It's why they left you with the shotgun. They are "normal" looking.

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Just a quick note still have the shotgun etc

That proves the animal welfare story is a lie then.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Are you sure it was the Gardaí that called to your door? :eek:

Tricky1127

Yes it was I know the officers involved to see one is a F.O
And yes everything was taken from me few days later I was at the station and got the officer involved he said that the Super Intendant wanted to check if the rifles are legal so that testing has to be done and the rest was handed over to me that was August again asked for something in writing he laughed saying that he was on the of his head and would sort it out... remember that I didn't want to start fighting with them just wanted it to be fixed and finish with no problems with them (Has anyone ever gotten it your way fighting with a Copper.?)

gunny123

Have you asked to see the superintendent ? If you have and he has refused, time for Willie Egan to get involved.

Tricky1127

Have to ask in writing to see him as of today's last phone call to his office

Cass

Tricky1127 wrote: »

............. he said that the Super Intendant wanted to check if the rifles are legal .............

Erm, should he not have done this BEFORE issuing the licenses?

I mean really, come on. As for testing i suppose they would want to see if you can flick a switch to turn it into a semi auto, etc, but again these steps should have been addressed/taken BEFORE the licenses were issued.

Cass

By the way on this:

Tricky1127 wrote: »

2/ I offered to drop them off but was told that it was only to Chq the security ��

As i said if it was an animal welfare issue it'd be the ISPCA, but in matters of security for firearms it's the Crime Prevention Officer (CPO) that visits you. They are actually trained and appointed to do just that job. The position is an official one unlike the Firearms Officer position.

Grizzly 45

Lawyer up!!You are being jerked about!
This is another "idontlokethelookodatnow!" case.At this stage anyone with cop on will know the difference between a straight pull and a semi auto.There have been numerous cases with SA and straight pulls over the last decade with the same stunt being pulled for ballistic testing...It just so happens since our friend Det ins Brookes left AGS has NO ballistics expert..So they could hold onto them until a replacement is promoted to fill the gap
Again we have here the OP acting in good faith and some naiveity being taken advantage of by the AGS.
Spurious reasons all over the place from the word go.Cass has pretty much daid the procedure to deal with this and I would say screw not making a fuss..Get a lawyer that KNOWS the gun laws here and go to town on this Super..It is an outrage that they are still pulling this kind of nonsense in this day and age.

tac foley

Cass wrote: »

Erm, should he not have done this BEFORE issuing the licenses?

I mean really, come on. As for testing i suppose they would want to see if you can flick a switch to turn it into a semi auto, etc, but again these steps should have been addressed/taken BEFORE the licenses were issued.

As you know, these firearms are made especially to comply the the UK's rather odd laws regarding semi-automatic centre-fire rifles [not shotguns]. They have been built specifically with a whole raft on NON-interchangeable components designed specifically from the word go not to be able to be converted to shoot in semi-auto mode. They really ARE a rather distinctive-looking straight-pull bolt-action, that uses the camming action of hauling back on the bolt handle to rotate the breechblock and unlock it from the breech.

The safety catch has only two positions - fire and safe.

What expert knowledge would allow these two Gardaí to make a snap judgement on the legality or otherwise of the guns? Does being a member of AGS automatically bestow legality on those members of AGS who handle other people's firearms in their own homes/premises?

This event is turning into a whole new ball-game AND can of worms combined.

Finally - my question to the OP - were there any witnesses to this 'seizure' of your lawfully-held and licensed firearms?

By now I would have been leaving smoking footprints in the direction of my lawyer's office.

tac

gunny123

tac foley wrote: »

What expert knowledge would allow these two Gardaí to make a snap judgement on the legality or otherwise of the guns? Does being a member of AGS automatically bestow legality on those members of AGS who handle other people's firearms in their own homes/premises?


tac

Well i remember when the centrefire pistol cases were all going on a few years back. The gardai expert was Brooks, and i seem to recall he was not giving expert evidence, but merely reciting the rubbish the supers and chief supers had told him to spout in court. I also heard when asked by a judge where he obtained his expert knowledge on a certain firearm, he responded............"youtube"

Tricky1127

Yes. My own Brother was in the room with the gun safe when the conversation went from "what part of the security would you like me to show you" to "sorry for this but the Super Intendant wants me to take them in". His face was a picture (he knows that am fussy about them and doesn't ask to touch them). I keep them like new, it's my hobby. I have an interest in the sport so much so that it's not a. 308 win but a .260 Rem. Works better for me. Look at the price of ammo difference . 260 Rem vs .308 win.

Just one more thing am a Left-hand shooter the amount of rifles I tried out before finally finding the right option for me. Now look at the makes, it was nearly impossible to get my hands on them in Ireland the dealers who import rifles stick to a small list of makes and models and calibre.

Don't let this turn into them and us. We only have permission from the state in Ireland to hold and use firearms. This is very important to remember as education is the key. I believe and we are still looked at as "Nutters" with a bit "Why Would You Need That". I don't shoot Tiger's and post pics to FB. Just shoot paper and clay pigeons or vermin. No trophies hanging out of the walls in the house, in fact you wouldn't take me for a shooter/hunter unless you have known me for years

Tricky1127

Am sure that the name of ballistic expert given to me was Detective Garda David O’Leary of the ballistics department at Garda headquarters in Dublin if anyone knows what he is like or is he anti firearms
Was just going through my notes I wrote after leaving the station

Grizzly 45

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Am sure that the name of ballistic expert given to me was Detective Garda David O’Leary of the ballistics department at Garda headquarters in Dublin if anyone knows what he is like or is he anti firearms
Was just going through my notes I wrote after leaving the station

Sounds like a newbie,and funny that he is a ballistics expert as a DG when by procedure it has to be a Det Ins or above..So another fill in...Be intresting to see his experiance of firearms in court..As you need to be a DS or higher I belive to do a certain bit of AGS firearms training reserved to ranks above t qualify in ballistics....... A salient point my JC pointed out to the AGS ballistic expert DS Cummins in Oct 2014 in Limerick. Sometimes you need anEX insider to rattle their cages.
Indeed this shouldnt be a them and us situation either.But there is also exceeding your authorithy and throwing your weight about just to be thick about things too.We mightnt have a constitutional right to arms here,but there are still RULES of law which must be obeyed by AGS no matter what.Surrender that and we might as well live in North Korea.

Not telling your busisness friend,but I wouldnt put up with this carry on for a minute longer.In this day and age of the internet they should know within minutes WTF a SA or a straight pull bolt action is.What exactly do they want to ballistically test them for?You should have asked and should ask now"Am I or my firearms suspected of criminal wrong doing?Äs AGS has no way of recording any ballistic catolouge of firearm shells or bullets unless recoverd from a crime scene....In short,you have been LIED to from the word GO.The initial reason of a complaint..BS The non production of any offical paperwork from the visiting gaurds,.BS.Should have told them then to go away and get it on paper and come back then.The non production of a recipt from the Super for your property.BS Even the Garda in charge of reciving your guns and ammo should and must BY law issue a recipt for your property.How otherwise will they establish a evidence chain????Even feckin drug dealers get a recipt for siezed goods..
This is just utter BS by your Super who is throwing his weight about and is clealy very ignorant of what has been going on with Semis and straight pull bolt actions in the courts in this land recently.Not to mind evidence and procedure as well.Form does not follow function as my ballistics expert said.[He actually trained Brooks into his job a few years ago].And a bolt action rifle no matter how it looks is still a bolt action.As a fellow left hooker I sympathise immensely with your plight and understand fully the benefits of the AR design in semi ,bolt,pump,MARS or whatever.

At this stage I think your choices are, a demand to see the super,if refused, ignored ,a nasty letter from Willie Egan or my fellah..[PM me if you want his contact details.]Saying basically WTF.com? Are you playing at and here are three options.past,present,future,and the fact if this does go to court,you Superintendant could be liable for costs too. It,s an unfortunate situation and I can understand the lets not make a fuss approach..fine if they were playting nice with you,but then you wouldnt have had to post this problem in the first place...

gunny123

In addition Grizz, surely the guards cannot just go on a fishing expedition ? They have to have just cause and a good reason to seek a search warrant and enter a house or premises, or to seize private property. What triggered this sudden seizure of this lads rifles ? Was it a slow day in the supers office and they decided to go and basically turn over someones house and see what they could turn up ? This lark of turning up to "inspect the security" has been abused here. Surely the house security was inspected before the licences were issued. The whole thing smells.

Tricky1127

No warrant needed if you have let them into the property Hence the Security Chq + which was done in January (License renewal) + the AR10-T was inspected by the F.O because it's a AR10 to make sure that it was only a single shot

gunny123

Tricky1127 wrote: »

No warrant needed if you have let them into the property Hence the Security Chq + which was done in January (License renewal) + the AR10-T was inspected by the F.O because it's a AR10 to make sure that it was only a single shot

Did you ask why they were checking again when it was obviously passed ok so recently ? What qualified the F.O. to check if it was a straight pull or semi-auto ?

Tricky1127

I did and was told that because I have an other property it was to confirm that this is the property they and me are at B/S reason but wanted to comply with the Garda request as for the F.O who looked it over was a different one at a main station licenses expired in December sent them all off together in November each one came back at different times as January came around no renewal for the AR all others done so I had to ask what's the story on the .260 rem and he said I need to see your set up storage and the AR .260 Rem

Sparks

Tricky1127 wrote: »

No warrant needed if you have let them into the property

No warrant needed full stop. If you have firearms, they don't require a warrant to inspect the firearms (searching the property willy nilly is a whole other matter, and seizure requires paperwork too, but if they want to check your safe, you are legally required to allow them to do so).

Cass

Sparks wrote: »

..........you are legally required to allow them to do so).

Can you link to the legislation that says that? Was always under the impression that a warrantless entry can only occur if you consent. It's why i disliked the FCA1 in which you had to sign away your right to privacy/warrantless search.

tac foley

Cass wrote: »

Can you link to the legislation that says that? Was always under the impression that a warrantless entry can only occur if you consent. It's why i disliked the FCA1 in which you had to sign away your right to privacy/warrantless search.

Didn't you just say that? If wording in the FCA1 states it, then THAT is the legal position, surely?

tac

gunny123

Sparks wrote: »

No warrant needed full stop. If you have firearms, they don't require a warrant to inspect the firearms (searching the property willy nilly is a whole other matter, and seizure requires paperwork too, but if they want to check your safe, you are legally required to allow them to do so).

Fair enough , but surely thats not carte blanche to do what they did in this instance ? It appears they used the trojan horse of a security inspection to gain access to the rifles and seize them.

Cass

No. It's a form. An application. I want the piece of law that says i must allow warrantless entry to my home.

Plus the FCA1 does not say "You must allow members of An Gardaí to enter your home to search it as they feel like it" or something along those lines.

We've discussed this before. The FCA1 has a section that asks if you comply with the security standards based on the level of firearm ownership (level 1, level 2, etc). If the CPO arrives at your home and says s/he is there to check on those security measures i do not HAVE TO let him/her in. However if i don't s/he will simply mark me down as uncooperative, and could say how they could not gain access to check.

I would most likely then receive a letter or visit to revoke my guns for failure to be able to confirm i conform to the security standards.

The same thing applies to medical information. You disclose personal info like GP, other doctors, and give your consent for them to make contact should they need to/desire. This consent essentially signs away your right to privacy and although i've not heard of a case yet, it'd be interesting to see what would happen if someone refused to give out such private medical details. Also would a Doctor give details to someone that rang up or called in? Does the FCA1 constitute allow them to divulge your medical information?

Again its a case of attaining private and privileged information via an underlying hint of refusal if you fail to do so.

Tricky1127

Had a phone call from the Super Intendant who said Okay take the lot from him....!! He has gotten back a report from a Garda F.O (No Name given but i did ask) saying that both of these rifles are restricted but my licenses are for Non restricted firearms and he said that it was to be forwarded to the Super Intendant who granted said licenses and I will have to talk about it with him and he may or may not feel about returning said rifles to me. Questions how does a firearm in 7 months turn into a restricted firearm from a non restricted one...? I don't want to agree with them been restricted to get them back thats just wrong and would both of us wrong if I just agree.... Help needed for this point if anyone has an ideas the AR10-T only holds 1 round at a time the other rifle does have a ten round mag and a thumb hole grip not pistol type grip

BattleCorp

Tricky1127 wrote: »

Had a phone call from the Super Intendant who said Okay take the lot from him....!! He has gotten back a report from a Garda F.O (No Name given but i did ask) saying that both of these rifles are restricted but my licenses are for Non restricted firearms and he said that it was to be forwarded to the Super Intendant who granted said licenses and I will have to talk about it with him and he may or may not feel about returning said rifles to me. Questions how does a firearm in 7 months turn into a restricted firearm from a non restricted one...? I don't want to agree with them been restricted to get them back thats just wrong and would both of us wrong if I just agree.... Help needed for this point if anyone has an ideas the AR10-T only holds 1 round at a time the other rifle does have a ten round mag and a thumb hole grip not pistol type grip

A pistol grip doesn't make a rifle restricted. That only applies to pistol grips on shotguns. 10 round mags don't make a rifle restricted either.

The whole restricted/not restricted thing is a mess. One Super might think that a firearm is not restricted while another might consider it restricted. Unfortunately there's a lot of leeway when it comes to personal opinion.

Your best option is to meet the Super and see what he has to say.

If you don't like what he has to say, then unfortunately it's probably time to lawyer up.

Tricky1127

Just something else I would say that if the license was changed to restricted from Non restricted I'd have problems with the EU firearms pass because I just know that the UK forces would look at the paperwork and it would go from a section 1 firearm to a section 5 firearm ie semi auto + I'd never be able to sell them not that was in my head

BattleCorp

Tricky1127 wrote: »

He has gotten back a report from a Garda F.O (No Name given but i did ask) saying that both of these rifles are restricted

First time I have ever heard that a Garda F.O. got to decide if something was restricted or not.

That's the Super's/Chief Super's job.

If you agree that both rifles are restricted, there is no guarantee that you will be granted restricted licences for them either.

Tricky1127

Sorry BattleCorp it was from a ballistics firearms officer and no name given this was a phone call

Cass

• Restricted - Over 30 cal, semi auto centrefire, shotgun that can hold more than 3, shotgun with pistol grip, rimfire semi auto with more than 10 rounds.
• Unrestricted - Bolt action rifle (any calibre), pistol grip rifle, shotgun with 3 or fewer rounds, air rifles.

You need to disagree first of all. Outline the fact the rifle is a straight pull, bolt action rifle, designed to fire one shot per pull of the trigger and with a bolt action that needs to be manually worked to cycle the next round. Highlight the fact the rifle is not self loading.

If you can get details, screenshots, and print outs of the specs from the manufacturers website or via letter from the manufacturers, do so. Also include, regarding the A10, that a semi auto firearm in the UK is illegal and this rifle is made to conform to the laws of the UK.

Request a copy or summary of the report where the reasons for them labeling it as a semi auto are set out. If they cite that it can be changed or altered so as to make it a semi auto you simply point out that ability and doing so are two separate things. IOW if you were to convert it to semi auto you would be in breech of your license and the firearms act. Then point out that while you do not agree, the rifle is a straight pull bolt action, and you have it licensed as such.

Next step is to make contact with a solicitor and your shooting reps. Inform them of what is happening, and copy them in any documentation.

I had a similar experience with my rifle. Long story short there was confusion as to whether it was restricted or non restricted. I knew, and it is, a restricted firearm and the onus is on me to license it as such. However it kept being sent down to the Super to authorise it as an unrestricted. This could not happen as the license would have been invalid. I eventually got it, but had i just let the Super sign off on it i'd have an unlicensed firearm.